@Romans, I eventually killed the pop, and got my PCV to a zero map and Autotune confirmed it was correct - trims of 1/-1 only. Sell your Power Commander shares!

Congrats, that's the goal. You have done it.

Really hard to do with boost as fuel pressure rise and fall makes you nuts looking at the #'s. But I will get it to perfect.

Romans. Your bike being 2012. is it designated FD or FC. And what would the ECU part number be if you don't mind me asking.
I'm looking into Justin's Hack tool at the moment and like what it can do so far vs. the PC.

Being able to see the load cell/ignition cells change live is defiantly required.
Data logging would be the next major requirement for me.

* Last updated by: 1400R on 8/16/2013 @ 8:44 PM *

I'm looking into Justin's Hack tool at the moment and like what it can do so far vs. the PC.

You will love it.

Being able to see the load cell/ignition cells change live is defiantly required.

Now your talking dirty lol.

Sorry but no. That would be my dream tuning inside ECU Live.

Power commander allows you to see live fuel cell locations but Not Ignition Timing.

MSD SB6 allows you to see ignition but not fuel.

So for live we need Aftermarket

This being said what OZ has done has created the perfect set up for him, based on what AFR he chose from inside the Dyno jet software info. Only now can he toss the piggy backs

We Still have know way of knowing best power with out Dyno.

Sorry to say but currently we are still linked by the Nu.s to other pigs.

I can't sell my shares just yet as none of what we can achieve inside ECU can be done with out them. Cheers

Soon

* Last updated by: Romans on 8/16/2013 @ 7:22 PM *

Thanks Romans. I assume your bike is designated FC?.
Mine is designated FD with the EU ECU. But is a 12/12.
Thanks for your input. It's good to see people around who know what they want and how to get at it.

Beautiful setup Romes!!!! I had trouble with that dang power supply. Got two 3b cables comin now!!

Congrats, that's the goal. You have done it.
Really hard to do with boost as fuel pressure rise and fall makes you nuts looking at the #'s. But I will get it to perfect.

For the perfect decel fix, I had to play with timing, IAP and TPS maps. Timing and IAP maps were the key to better results on trailing or closed throttle behaviour, TPS is for acceleration. But nothing is simple, the maps interact.

The conversion of my PCV maps to ECU maps was actually pretty easy. I used a spreadsheet and predictive interpolation (2nd order for the mathematically inclined) to work out what the PCV corrections were at the various ECU TPS columns. PCV is in % change (so it says) and I applied that % change to the ECU values. It got close. But the PCV lag comes into play and I had to shift all PCV values to the left (60% TPS on the PCV is more like 52% on the ECU) for accel and to the right on decel (IAP map - which required more guesswork). I set my PCV to zero map and "went ridin!". Took me a few attempts to get it right. PCV % my ass! From my results I am convinced they are non-linear changes. +10 on PCV IS NOT 5 x +2. +20 is about 1.5 x +10, +5 is just a bit more than double +1. If you put 20% more fuel in via the ECU it gets way more fuel (AFR drops a lot more) than 20% via PCV.

The final result was magic. I got that engine so smooth, the throttle response so crisp and linear.
It may not max out a dyno (never tested it), but give me that crisp throttle and smooth delivery any day.
For a big bore bike, it can rev up/down like a 1000 once you get this.

Man I miss that bike....

Oz, ur awesome. I was sitting here pondering, and NO SHIT, at about 830 pm I sent ROMANS an email and hub a PM saying how I thought I figured a way to make a zero map based on percentage extrapolation off of pc data, and you fing post up ya did it how long ago????!? Made me feel stupid! Hahahaha :))))

In fact, that fing post should be immortalized!! You are fuckin brilliant.
I fing got all of that and do you know how fuckin easy you just made my tuning day. I have a 3b comin, and a dyno and an awesome tuner and I just need that cable! :))) the on bench was being a bitch with the power source thingy. But I digress. That fing little tid bit you dropped oughta make everyone's fuckin...

Thanks

Yep, excel will give you a way to determine what the PCV values are at the ECU equivalent columns.
But I found you had to offset by 6-8% to get it right. 18% on ECU is like 22% on PCV.
10% on ECU is 13-14% on PCV. I just moved the whole then 5% on my 3-4 attempt and things got a lot closer.

But you can safely ignore that for the first cut and see how you go YMMV - I'm on 2009, 2012 is different.

Enjoy...whole new tuning experience and it is worth it!

I cut it to my brain Oz! Can't take that knowledge out now! You just opened a new world of data extrapolation and ya don't know it yet. I'm out of the tuning game. I'm straight going data fix. Padow. Next level. New gen. No dyno. Just brain bike computer think do flawless.
:)

Yup yup yup I see. I don't need excel, I gots that shit scrolling across in my head. U gots the gen I gots the thumper motor you offset so much you are in oz i got no elevation temp diff air dens diff up down here I go my offset shall only be 4.3% or thereabouts up through that chain of power to 11000.
Got it.

I saved that next genius post you gave me as well sir. My 4.3 should be close but I shall follow your way so no lean occurs. Holy fuck man.

You gave me goosebumps. Ya wanna father my nieces and nephews??? Lol. The guy she's bangin now can't fix his lawnmower.

* Last updated by: Cblast on 8/16/2013 @ 10:40 PM *

The final result was magic. I got that engine so smooth, the throttle response so crisp and linear.
It may not max out a dyno (never tested it), but give me that crisp throttle and smooth delivery any day.

OZ what you have done is truly Awesome and is MAGIC. Y, is because you did it on your own. You took the chance with your #'s and hit pay day. If you did no damage on the way, what you have created is gold in my IMO.

You now have a factory ECU doing all the work with Ram Air considered into the map. Also you have your exact elevation, sea level into play. Now it's perfect. Of course, All Depending on what Best torque and Hp you have guessed into your AFR map. Which is based on your experience. As you know still needs a Dyno. Makes no diff you built your bike for exactly how you wanted it to run. Well done.

To date your the first I know of that has done it. Congrats buddy well done.

Thanks Romans. I assume your bike is designated FC?.
Mine is designated FD with the EU ECU. But is a 12/12.
Thanks for your input. It's good to see people around who know what they want and how to get at it.

There is eight diff ECU's we can see inside them all. Woolich to blame

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't the elevation and blah blah blah be back extrapolated off what #'s the ecu puts out on that day? And Romes I don't think he or any of us taking this map math approach risk damage due to a lean condition as we are extrapolating to a richer #. Or am I nuts??? I'm asking cause I'm about to do exactly this.

* Last updated by: Cblast on 8/16/2013 @ 11:52 PM *

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't the elevation extrapolated off what #'s the ecu puts out on that day?

ECU puts out ??? Please teach how this is done. Dyno Correction #'s maybe ?

DNI, STD, SAE, JIS, UNC, EEC are all correction factors. Only uncorrected is uncorrected.

Romes I don't think he or any of us taking this map math approach risk damage due to a lean condition

hmmm, you B much braver man than me. I have Seven different maps made by pro's in front of me for the 14R. None subscribe to the answer "any of us" But I do understand where your coming from.

Let Me Say This.

Story, Maybe before your time here, but I data logged a map that members here were paying for. Afterwards In my study I was in shock. If I said anything I'm sure I would have been shot,,, so In my shame kept quiet, but left hints. (A trick Hub taught me, leaving hints). Some of you know who I'm talking about and love his maps to this day not knowing about the long term damage that may be taking place in your motor. My point,,,, just because it feels good ????

Second story. Coles Notes. Early on guys were talking Ivan's TRE. Brock did numerous tests. All proved that taking Flies was all Bad. Yet, No one would listen. Brock later admitted(because guys loved flies out)how the zx-14 behaved on the Dyno was not how riders like it in the real world. Of course he had to,,,bad for business. So story got a re write. $$$$$

My point being, Dyno #'s can't always make the rider happy. Power early is nice but Must be linear smoooooth. Hub preached this early in 2006 while I went for raw gut ripping power. Only Now can he and I have it both ways.

I have made 21 Flashes to date for the 14R. My best work GRN14 rides today. I have made 7 attempts at making it better with out success. The #'s are good but street tests prove other wise. Maybe it's just my opinion but I still want both smooth and raw. Not easy to achieve. If you want only top end #'s, that's the easy part,,, but it's everything else that makes the bike enjoyable. Very Very Hard,,, This is how I tune For us. For those who just plunk in the #'s the bike will respond exactly how you wish. This is a great machine but no two tuners chase the same goals.

And Yes she runs lean if played with. We sent Wolf to Dyno knowing this. Results were Lean as expected.

I'm asking cause I'm about to do exactly this.

Keep asking C, if I can Help, I will. Remember I want the same as you. We all do. This is my Hobby and I'm always willing to learn. I only ride ZX-14's and all input is very important to me. Cheers.

Hub what's this new batt, you have ?

Thanks C

All credit to Romans here, I would have been stuck without his help, the timing and IAP suggestions are gold (read this thread back before it pulled off the side of the road to fix a dodgy chain).

Regarding risk of too lean. I had a PCV map made with autotune that was already pretty good - except for decel pops. Romans is correct - we still need it - but not for much longer (go Justin, go..!!). I think working out what the ideal AFR is for your bike is still the realm of the dyno. My bike runs well at 13.0 - 13.6, mostly around 13.0-13.2.

Luckily the biggest correction in my PCV map was 30% - cut. I didn't just drop that into the ECU and pray. I dropped it in for a range of cells and noted the Autotune adding fuel to get back to target AFR. That gave me the clue that the PCV corrections were either non linear or scaled compared to ECU numbers. So for anything more than 10% I did over a series of burns. So you are wise to tread slowly. But once you work out how much an ECU change means in PCV trims, at least for me, it seemed to be the same everywhere. So do this at RPM/TPS you can just watch in the garage and apply everywhere.

Note: 2009 doesn't have a Neutral map, but 2012 does (I believe) so you might have to have the wheel turning.

All credit to Romans here, I would have been stuck without his help, the timing and IAP suggestions are gold

Thanks OZ. I was wondering how you were making out. No e-mails from you could have meant you got it or you were pissed off at me and wanted to burn my house down lol.

I always knew you would get it. You Sounded like a man who doesn't give up. Once again Congrats well done.

That battery will be used for the gopro remote and hang that battery on the tripod, then just swap out micro cards being filled. How do I recharge the battery? I have 2 cig lighters fore and aft on the bike. Just plug in the battery from the bike or when I get home is the wall charger.

And if I knew all I needed was to grease my battery posts in the beginning, I got stuck at a NAPA store with a battery issue. I had the white corrosion at the neg side of the post. It would charge up, but to draw any current, it stopped it right there. When I got the bike home, noted the corrosion, charged the battery and it started right up. It was the original battery and it was still fine.

If I had that battery and jumper... No tow home.

Well, if C an OZ have this spreadsheet theory, someone explain the basics. In other words, Romes does not need this theory, but somehow the math dials in the theory, right? So what process is Romes as opposed to and what process is OZ' setup?

I'll try stab at it hub. I have not got a wooly setup in front of me. Nels has the Full smear all set up and actually has it set transportable to different locations so he will be able to basically tune on the fly when we get this all sorted. My thoughts are this from the wooly maps that I have seen and played with and the PC maps I played with are different mathematical lingo. But are communicating same stuff.
So here is how I started thinkin it down

If they communicate fuel that's easy then, we bring up the maps and make each cell a fraction like in grade school when comparing two numbers that don't converge equally. So I line up all the fractions split the difference and begin. Easy concept is where I start always. I focus on the crux- here fuel disparate numbers. Then I work on the crux. Then I re tackle problem. Once I had a matrix set of both numbers, simply overlay in excel spreadsheet can help make all this simple simple simple. Excel is one of the most powerful programs I have fucked with math wise. But I don't use it real time. I use it for fine tuning but I do all this shit in my head. The 4.3% (5 for him his bike), is talkin about is that difference in the fractions given back as a percentage extrapolated across the range. I saw that shit soon as I felt the first fraction snap into place, then I just had to wait for the rest of em to fall into place so I could watch the difference build and factor it back as a fraction to make a percent. Padow. I guess 4.3 for me and mine. Usually I'm close.

This life form for me is a pretty good simulation
I can even feel and taste things. Intellect is happy happy, body requires too much maintenance. But, so do Bugatti's. I like the empty fast speed speed. I like it when my math becomes drive. Hopefully next intellect support structure simulation is less labor intensive and more impervious to wear. I'd like a stronger weld with the combustion chamber. That being the crux.

When Mrs.Ferguson taught me fractions in the 3rd grade I was already showing sings of mental stress because I had been taught math, but not enough to make it all click. My head was lockin up and shit cause my mind couldn't mesh certain numbers that I KNEW NEEDED TO BE MESHED. Mrs.ferguson taught me fractions and everything clicked, my mental landscape changed and I got the hang of math by about 7th grade. :)))) that is about as honest as I have been in public about Cblast.

Okay, let's talk abstract. You are looking at one number in a cell, change that, you take that concept as a percentage change. You wait for the re-calc to work that one number was to watch the whole table change with different numbers = I just changed a percentage in fractions.

So the concept is one number in a cell will alter all the other numbers is a percentage change. So for argument sake, we have a table that has a full 10% gain in fuel trim. But we are too rich. So percentage wise, I see this one number, guess down a few numbers to what it is now. This now causes the abstract to... Set the table at a 9.6% drop is the percentage you see as how it's possible to set the map in this style increment do you mean?