Excuse me there, Vic, but this is a power thread. Could we get back to this instead? I prefer to look at torque numbers rather than HP numbers. For example, a nice powerband theses days is about 1 cylinder short of a triple header.

Say torque wise the 14 puts out 120 / 4 = 30 pounds @ barrel.
Say the torque ratio of the triple is 115 / 3 = 38.33 zipper breaking barrel rolls.

Say Vic, a guy walks into a bar.......... That's it! I was not old enough to follow him, see the other patrons, who said what to whom to finish the joke!

Excuse me there, Vic, but this is a power thread. Could we get back to this instead? I prefer to look at torque numbers rather than HP numbers. For example, a nice powerband theses days is about 1 cylinder short of a triple header.

Say torque wise the 14 puts out 120 / 4 = 30 pounds @ barrel.
Say the torque ratio of the triple is 115 / 3 = 38.33 zipper breaking barrel rolls.

Say Vic, a guy walks into a bar.......... That's it! I was not old enough to follow him, see the other patrons, who said what to whom to finish the joke!

Fine by me, back on topic. It's much more interesting that all this drama about houses, squids, and whatever Wolfman brought up....

If that's how you prefer comparing engines and find meaning to, then that's what you prefer. It's simple and I like simplifying things. It's not a valid manner of evaluating and comparing power output because it only concerns peak torque and number of cylinders. It doesn't account for the engine's configuration, or how the engine's optimized to deliver power in some way. Nor does it compare displacement per cylinder, which is important. Does it make sense to compare a 500cc single cylinder's peak torque to a 500cc 8 cylinder at 75cc per cylinder?

Someone could prefer to compare engines on which one consumes the most fuel. A Honda VTX 1800 gets around the same mileage as a 14. Does this mean they are the same thing? If I put a 1800 VTX motor in a 14R, would it still be a 9.5 second bike? If I put a 14 engine in a VTX, would it become a 9.5 second bike? For the sake of this example, let's assume the chassis are equally as capable of getting the bike down the drag strip. Just because the two have the same measurement (mpg) does not mean they are equal except in how many mpg they get.

PS - Hub if I've said anything you find disrespectful in this thread, please PM me about it specifically. I see changes you've made, and I appreciate and respect those changes.

Fine by me, back on topic. It's much more interesting that all this drama about houses, squids, and whatever Wolfman brought up....

Torque numbers = fun factor - I too would prefer a meaty torque number over a high arching HP number.

Remember too a race is won or lost due to the operator. Most street battles are won and lost in the mid range.

* Last updated by: Wolfman on 1/24/2015 @ 7:10 AM *

Vicker PM sent

"Horsepower sells cars* ... torque wins races"?

* and bikes!

^^
All day long homeboy!

Vic, you brought up a good point about HP. We could bring up a 2.9 liter type of engine with 20 hp out of that huge cubic inch model T, but time and engines have evolved into tinier and more powerful engines. 5hp out of the holes and 26 to 16 mpg, almost 2 times the bore size.

If we took a H-D and matched 120tq to the 14's 120tq, like Wolfy said, it's 'all in that mid' with the H-D and you've seen that video with a 1320cc or so evo H-D beat that jixxer in that dutch video, where Heineken can beat the more powerful higher hp rated gix? It may have more HP, but that harley torque ate that bike up.

So torque wise the H-D signs off. HP wise, the gix keeps going and going and going is the HP. So your point is more the apple/orange or a model T vs. 2/3rds of the engine removed and that's 20 hp vs. 200 hp. So where are we at? Cam profile is one. Forget bore and stroke because those combos keep coming and going. Has to be the head is where the HP lies.

So, speed of air in and how well the fuel is atomized is the means to the end. I'm not about to add, but I have to is to show the evolution of the valve angle and removing that bend in the port: is more speed of the same gulp of air having less drag. The injector that can break the puddles of gas out of a T's carb and that distribution of the air to fuel ratio. That is basically it

I don't know if that apple answered the orange, so poke holes in this like a covalent bond.

Non-wheelie bar H-D beat ANY sport bike and it's complete rider failure. Turn in your key and abandon the path of the sport rider. I am ashamed.... Again... I'm off topic.. But it couldn't be helped...

I take it, Mav, that you've never lined up against a turbo charged HD? Only raced one in the 1/8th, had me balls out no doubt, but I was starting to come in hard on him at the end. Had it been a 1/4 I might of had the win.

Gearheads like us throw around torque and HP numbers a lot, kinda like bragging rights.

Racers throw around ET and MPH numbers which, discounting rider ability, reflect what that torque and HP are really doing.

Torque = how much force can be applied
HP = how fast the force can be applied
ET = what you are able to do with the above

Helmet is off to Mav, Nasty, and others who can truly brag about ALL the numbers together!!!

Mad love to Nasty and Mav for the pursuit of quarter mile dominance. For sure boys, it is with enthusiasm that we hear of your time!
Big mad love boys!
Wolf

Amen to what Wolf said. Never really had a personal interest in 1/4 mile but love to watch the guys that do, truly an art and a skill which I do not have, my respect and admiration for those that do it 1/4 at a time!!!

Hub what you say registers with me. I figured you were either building a case to illustrate a point, or were exploring the idea of comparing engines in that manner.

Yes I have seen that video. It blew my mind. I expected the GSXR to win. It didn't seem like the GSXR rider was very confident launching it. Maybe he was, and the cruiser just had that much balls (it did look pretty fast on its own right).

My questions about whether swapping a VTX engine and 14 engine and 1/4 mile performance were somewhat out of curiosity and to make a point. I think the results wouldn't be equal 1/4 performance, but your point about that HD having a whole lot of mid-range haul ass really makes me wonder what would the difference really be? Probably wouldn't be equal, but probably surprising! Looked up the VTX is 12.3, 758 lb wet.

The VTX will do 14 seconds down the quarter. My buddy races his whenever "Black Betty" is broke down.

* Last updated by: nasty on 1/24/2015 @ 5:38 PM *

Nasty I will go heads up against ANY non-wheelie bar HD on the planet ANY day of the year. PERIOD.

Youda had him, you're a hell of a lot faster than me.

Amen to what Wolf said. Never really had a personal interest in 1/4 mile but love to watch the guys that do, truly an art and a skill which I do not have, my respect and admiration for those that do it 1/4 at a time!!!

x2

No real interest in draggin quarter miles at a time ... but I enjoy watchin em sometimes.

I got the big ZX for its freighttrainpulllikeamutherfucker thrust (call it power, call it torque, I don't care) ... and its looks ... and its electronics. There will always be somebody faster, OEM or modded, either in your own town or the next ... or the next ... not far. And I don't care, I'm happy either way. I likes my big ZX.

I likes my big Z

* Last updated by: Wolfman on 1/26/2015 @ 4:28 PM *

For the benefit of those who may have not read my thread about my custom tune: I was disappointed with my low dyno numbers mentioned in this thread so I took my bike to another shop and the operator said, "I'll dyno your bike, but it might destroy your Shinko Hookup and you will have low numbers". I let him go ahead and she dynoed 189 which was close to the previous numbers mentioned in this thread. Then he took off the Shinko and put a stock tire back on and it dynoed at 202. Then he added a BMC race air filter and it went up to 204 and then I let him custom tune my bike and it gained 4 more horsepower. I ended up with 208 to the rear tire. I had no idea that the Shinko Hookup could skew the dyno numbers so bad.

Dyno sheet:

As mentioned the 204 is with the race air filter and the 208 is with the custom tune. Of course I had him put back on the Shinko Hookup after the tune.

* Last updated by: skewedTotheLeft on 2/5/2015 @ 3:33 PM *

"PS - Hub if I've said anything you find disrespectful in this thread, please PM me about it specifically. I see changes you've made, and I appreciate and respect those changes."....

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/5/2015 @ 11:21 AM *

skewed, no flash, right? I don't see it in your sig line, so I assume none.

Vic,
XT:
3 valve head with different valve angles.
Low comp pistons or design say.
Gear drive rear end sinking power in those two gear angles.
Dual cam chain dragging down power.
Twin by itself is a low rpm spinner.

ZX:
More cylinders the smoother the engine.
More mass spread out so spins faster.
Chain drive and all that power going into turning a gear and that disadvantage.
4-valve and higher compression pistons.
More even valve angles where head makes the hp.

Hub,
You're right. I have no flash.

I let him go ahead and she dynoed 189 which was close to the previous numbers mentioned in this thread.

Vic,
Got myself a footlong now---I think I'll change my handle to BigDikRik

:)