You have to enter in the variables of YOUR bike.

I hear ya, Grn, but I'm going to agree with czar'z comment. I'm going to reverse the good chain, is hp gain or loss vs. 13.5a: I now read the dyno chart.

Fuel... oil weight, and I too agree, 0w and over 100 octane of the right stuff and I've seen hp gain with just the gas alone, so yes to that.

Air filter too, but again, I still have a faster in velocity or less restricted; so my 13.5a is going to cover that all along the power band. Look at the curve and the AFR match, right? Right.

Pipes, be it slips or single with an open thru header and muffler, of course that is direct out so, yes, more uncorking; more hp. Still, 13.5a is plenty if not stock is fine too, so any unrestricted speed out [or in] is hp gain.

A weighted 14 with a 13.5a is call this the preset. So any loss of weight is power--'to weight ratio.' So the more you take off, this still does not affect the preset of 13.5a. See the engine tuning and it has nothing to do with weight per say? But remove weight off the bike is still going to propel it faster than weighted. Thus is a speed event change, not a 13.5a event and that I have to retune for what? See how nothing has changed the tune? I send you a pc map all in 13.5a, then it's going to run that AFR.

run differently depending on those variables.I'm 165...others may be in the 200 range.It DOES make a difference.

And now we are back to this, do we really need to change the jetting per say> Do I need to change the map of the OEM and now I have to retune for less weight, or did I just experience a power to weight change? It's like saying I do not have all those fairing parts on, I have to remap my ECU for that weight loss? I've lost 10 pounds and wait, I brought a passenger along for the ride, the owner's manual says to return the ECU or has a mode for passenger jetting/fueling?

So once the swap, there is your change of tune, no pound removed. Did that sort of show theory and some wild 'Lucas Of Darkness' and it may have been more the lack of wiring up a posi ground, rather than the paper broken down in the capacitors and doping of the diode so-and-so, but every lucas part I've gone thru> works. Who am I to believe? Fallacy forward or pick a part and find out the truth times 12 british bikes goes thru one's hands and wonder just that. Where did it originate, or how?

This is where I am wondering if you are being fed some hay-in is the input, and the output is hot-and-steamy is this theory of weight and pipe and I have to call to change to a passenger setting so flash that in too?

This might be the total opposite of what I think czar is thinking, but do you see the weighted passenger vs. map AFR?

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sorry guys missed all the action. Been on my favourite "how to's" you tube channel.

Did I laugh again? I sure did. Every time I read it.

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same bike, same rider, no difference, but a generic flash compared to a flash designed for that rider, bike, location, style, could make a difference. I doubt Vic got a generic flash, and I'm just throwin theories, but it's possible that with a little fine tuning things could be different. Just sayin, not necessarily believin.

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I believe you Vic... it makes perfect sense to me for the tests that you made.

Opening the flies too soon will cause some hesitation at rpms below 4000... the stock sub-throttle opening rates will give better full throttle power at low rpms than having them completely open at 2800 rpm.

Also 13.5-1 is too lean when tuned on the dyno.... this will give the highest hp reading and is good for a dyno chart.... (not much else really).

When the bike is on the dyno, the bike isn't moving and the real mixture on the road will be leaner.

Also, the fact that injector shutoff is still enabled, you would never feel a better driveability improvement over stock programming.

Ivan

* Last updated by: Ivan on 7/15/2015 @ 6:41 AM *

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I get ya'll...however..it isn't just fueling.It's also TIMING.If that isn't tweaked,you will get a somewhat 'factory' response from the bike.I say this because on my 07,the aftermarket timing wheel somehow got loosened up.The wheel was changing timing during this one particular ride.It would go from loping along to rapid fire wheely jumping beast.Rear tire breaking loose to sluggish performance.The AFR didn't change.It was a stock motor.NOONE could figure out wthell was wrong.Then I checked the wheel...the screws had backed out.Fixed that.But the timing definitely changed the way she performed.

So,if a guy flashes a bike without doing some timing adjustments...it won't perform as it could.Just my expereience with mine...your results may vary;)

I don't know if the afr is linked to the timing on these later model 14's.I may be way off on this.IDK.According to the Hubmiester,the afr stays the same no matter what else is going on.Yes?Not only did the bike go from 'slug' to 'monster',but the fuel mileage jumped to about 50 mpg a few times when it was in 'monster' mode.And the temps dropped a good amount during that as well.I can't say about a 2012 and up...

This timing wheel was the Brock's manual adjust one.Set at 4 degrees advance.Just the installation of that woke the bike up...much more than stock.Fueling hadn't been messed with.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 7/15/2015 @ 8:23 AM *

I believe you Vic... it makes perfect sense

Agreed... Digitally speaking.

Also 13.5-1 is too lean when tuned on the dyno.... this will give the highest hp reading and is good for a dyno chart.... (not much else really).

Brings Peak Torque or I'm missing something. Big difference however in a shift of torque at another rpm point if this flash enters the picture. Back to Vic's numbers.

When the bike is on the dyno, the bike isn't moving and the real mixture on the road will be leaner.

With a wet finger I blow on it, I feel some temp change when that happens. Moving on the road, and now mix that moving air past the air intake sensor, plus the timing of how timed that DTT is happening in the thousands of dumps per [breakdown the] second if not more per second, the mixture is going to run in a balanced [ele/mag] balanced proportion. I cannot assume lean, or I can this way, if that's how the air reacts, then the opposite happens. You taught me that [in a round about way], Ivan. Can't find the bottom of the bag, but the 'thanks' keep coming.

[q]Also, the fact that injector shutoff is still enabled, you would never feel a better driveability improvement over stock programming.[q]
Again, there are two fuel cuts, OE and then 'method' as stated in the book. And that driveability transition is slow at the AFR meter, but you cannot tell at all how seamless the DTT speed is. Thus the epiphany. Makes perfect [processing] sense to me.

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Youtube Channel - Vic.Thing (bike/auto/tools/etc reviews, how-tos, & more) NOT RECOMMENDED

Classy people...very classy. Consider this, how much do I charge anyone for my youtube channel? $0, admission is free. I don't even do whatever youtube partner crap or whatever to get $.001 a view.

Now, keep in mind I HAVE REFERRED SEVERAL people personally to C's flash service. Now it's a whole different ball game. People paid for his flash because I RECOMMENDED HIS FLASH. Now I seriously have to wonder did I give them bad advice?

All in all it's a bit ironic. I recommended C's flash product. You're not recommending my youtube channel now. Damn, I see your point. In fact, due to my costing good people probably in the area of around $1200-1500 for no benefit, I've now added the NOT RECOMMENDED label to my own signature!

I believe you Vic... it makes perfect sense to me for the tests that you made.

Opening the flies too soon will cause some hesitation at rpms below 4000... the stock sub-throttle opening rates will give better full throttle power at low rpms than having them completely open at 2800 rpm.

Also 13.5-1 is too lean when tuned on the dyno.... this will give the highest hp reading and is good for a dyno chart.... (not much else really).

When the bike is on the dyno, the bike isn't moving and the real mixture on the road will be leaner.

Also, the fact that injector shutoff is still enabled, you would never feel a better driveability improvement over stock programming.

Ivan

I appreciate your insight on these things. You are the expert, I have only rudimentary knowledge of the subject (I've never dyno'd anything). It's as much luck as anything that my thoughts might be correct, but your words should carry some weight.

It does make sense. 14R picks up ~10hp with from ram air. If AFRs are running too lean even if the engine is making a static 202 hp that's what it would be doing with ram air anyway in motion. Maybe that explains change-no change. 202 hp = 202 hp

14R picks up ~10hp with from ram air.

It's linear... you can't feel it inch after inch, foot after yard... Like you said, show me that seat of the pants person.

that's what it would be doing with ram air anyway in motion. Maybe that explains change-no change. 202 hp = 202 hp

Try this for diminishing returns. You know the old arm out in the air and the hand is hit with some force you keep gaining speed, right? But that's air flow past the arm pressure kind of open pressure. That closed ram environment has a lot of suck going on per thousands of times. And if you think hand pressure is behind that intake valve ready to ram in there, I'm sure there is formula, but how much real-linear was produced is just a number.

So linear wise, both ECU's ran in proportion there of... and of their perspective hp [chemical change] output, remember. Stock is one HP rated map in 14.1 no PAIR, where the dyno flash-map shows 13.5a. Slow if your ass is coming up with a 202 all even up, once again the fool of fools is me not seeing your AFR meter, so send the fucking $75 toggled off box to anyone with an AFR meter, Romes, me, 1bad, Ivan, and see if it is stock no change but a toggle, or you are holding the 13.5a map.

'Only your flasher knows for sure,' but there is no answer coming forward, no fool like the present fool I'm talking to is Ryan was the man for You from the start. You keep bringing up that Catch22 202 assfactor and pity the fool is why I fuck withem.

Signed,

I hope I'm wrong and C sent you the 13.5a map, not a toggle twist your tittyokes on you!

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C is a man of his word and he stands by his product(s). When I sent him my ecu for a reflash to compliment my new exhaust, there was something not quite right. With the prior flash and just M4 slips, I went from 186 hp stock to 197 hp. I went to a full race exhaust (m4 of course) and I lost hp. Down a few from the slips. So I called C and discussed what was going on and sent him copies of the dyno report. He studied and worked his magic, and corrected what ever was going on. I believe he had to make it just a touch leaner. What ever he did worked. Now, Melinda eats everything. However I want the launch control! After the correction and another couple pulls on the dyno, she rocketed to 204 and 119 running between 12.7 and 13.1. Even dyno tech guy (who is a busa for life kinda dude) was amazed at what he was witnessing. I couldn't be happier! To me, Melinda is flawless. Runs how I like it and want it to. Perfect to my style of riding. KTRC off, front wheel up in 1st 2nd and 3rd. The only thing I wanna do is remove the secondaries.

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smat, that's about the best detailed data [debrief] I've heard so far. I would assume Nel was running the numbers or was it Cblast? And with C having that kind of return my ECU, here you go, where is C then? What's up with Vic's ECU? This looks more like a Kruz/Jeffo, not with my map you're not, and now this looks like a Vic/Cflash in the pan is match my phone call.

Vic is one post office ride short of C showing up and mentioning there IS the generic $400 map there. Whatever the conversation turned into, maybe Vic should have let C try a little 'smat' at it. Seems your tweak worked. Nice job, Cblast&Co.

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Wolf / Smat / GRN, etc - Instead of just more long paragraphs of words, why doesn't somebody post proof 1) that Vic is either wrong or his results are an anomaly, and/or 2) that flashes really do improve performance?

I feel like I've posted this type of request a few times now, and rather than getting a valid response to it, responders just keep on piling on more useless words that don't prove or disprove anything.

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I'll chime in with an observation here.Looking at Vic's runs there,I can easily notice...the C flash is accelerating quicker.It's pulling harder.And it's pulling more stronger without any slowing.The stock runs...I notice the needles aren't moving as quickly,and there's a slight drop around 9K...(probably the 'hidden' midrange mapping deal Kawasaki put in there to provide a small safety net for the rider).

His C flash is NOT slower than the factory one.I don't need to test anything with numbers...it's clearly right there in the vids.NOW...install the factory ECU...get into 1st...punch it with TC off.Tell me what rpm she lofts at.(stay in the gas when doing this).

Install the C flash ECU...get her in 1st....TC off....NOW punch it(stay in the gas).I dare ya.Pop her into 2nd at 8,9,10K...NOW punch it.TC off.Bring a change of underwear with ya...you'll need em;)

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 7/16/2015 @ 11:31 AM *

His C flash is NOT slower than the factory one.I don't need to test anything with numbers...it's clearly right there in the vids

OK, let me understand. You are saying that although (after repeated runs) times are slower the bike is faster?

^^ Yeah.

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I have no idea about Vic's 'conclusive' evidence.MY evidence was on my bike...fully piped and C flash.The factory ECU didn't match the Flashed ECU...in any way.BIG difference.4th gear take off at 4K?He weighs how much?His bike weighs in at...?????My bike weighed in at 540 lbs full fuel tank.I'm 165lbs.A roll on at 4K is NOT gonna be like a 4K dyno run(in 4th gear).I say,get in lower gears...then punch it.Get those rpms up in the 6,8K range...punch it.Then tell me the Cflash is NOT better than the factory settings.If ya don't have to back out of the throttle...you're very brave.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 7/16/2015 @ 12:31 PM *

It seems pretty obvious (to me)that Vic was trying to get the same performance deal that you would be getting on a dyno run.I mean..they run em up in 4th gear,yes?Try the hooligan approach.If anyone thinks the factory settings are wild...try it with the Cflash.

Honestly,I'm not totally convinced that Vic actually switched those ecu's for this 'test'.Mine doesn't behave ANYTHING like what he showed.If I didn't enjoy C's flash...I'd have put my extra stock ECU back in.There's no contest.C's flash kicks azz.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 7/16/2015 @ 12:39 PM *

Personally,I'm wondering if Mr Victhing isn't just playing out some personal feelings about C that only he knows.He's been cantankerous ever since he joined this forum.Blasting people...being disrespectful of almost everyone here.It started with his announcement of..."you can't ride(correctly) without having a MSF course under your belt"...which seemed(to me) to be a declaration of..."I'm superior to you".Plus his comments in various threads about telling others they don't know shit about riding.Among other nice flames towards us here.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 7/16/2015 @ 12:47 PM *

From a standing start,in 1st...TC on '1'...my 14 will jump at around 3k...faster than the TC has a chance to rein it back in.The stock ECU doesn't do that.In my experience that is.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 7/16/2015 @ 1:16 PM *

Sorry GRN, but I disagree with almost everything you just stated. “Punch/shift” is not a good way to compare as it introduces too much variance. Vic’s testing method is the only way of generating consistently comparable results on the street. Saying it feels faster is not a test.

The only thing I would have changed in Vick’s testing approach would have been the starting RPMs (As Ivan also confirmed). 4k is simply too low of a starting point especially when combined with aggressive secondary’s opening curve.

No one has even considered suspension here.He weighs in at what?Over 200 lbs at least.If he has stock settings on his bike,it's definitely gonna squat when does these runs...and also,as I mentioned...his RPM deal was also too low.So in that I agree completely.That's why I mentioned getting her in lower gears first,then punching it(above 4K).The stock ECU settings just can't match the C flash.This 'test' was performed in all the wrong factors IMO.BUT...if that's how he wanted to test the two...okay by me.My results are very different than his.Was there a problem with the flash...it could happen(that I know of).But he'd actually be the only one that this happened to.Everybody else has had very different results.Like I said before...if the factory ECU was as good or better than C's flash,I'd go back to that.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 7/16/2015 @ 1:54 PM *

"My Youtube Channel - Vic.Thing (bike/auto/tools/etc reviews, how-tos, and more) NOT RECOMMENDED"...this is what he said about his own channel.Thoughts?

This comment is VERY strange.So we're NOT supposed to get any concrete(reliable) info from his channel?So what does this say about his particular 'test' of the two flashes?

Does this make any sense?Apparently,he's saying...'my posted info is not to be relied on as accurate' or whatever .

Posted by Hub..."Now, does the flash wheelie better than stock; low rpm? When the fuk is that going to happen?"...my sentiments exactly;)

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 7/16/2015 @ 6:26 PM *

You have not yet acknowledged that all of your negative reviews and non recommended banter started shortly after C did not want to associate with you and your friendship fell apart. This is perhaps a coincidence right. A fluke. Oh and nothing personal, right? He is to classy to state this fact. The disclaimer post about being impartial yadda yadda is ridiculous. The readership may be in the dark but I am not.

LOL what? oh please do elaborate. If there's anyone ruining their credibility here, it's you.

As predicted on page 6. ^^^
Question dodging and turning it around.

Simple question did you post all this criticism before or after the parting of relations?

Green has made an evaluation of your credibility and attitude. I tend to agree with him.

* Last updated by: Wolfman on 7/16/2015 @ 5:13 PM *

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Simple question did you post all this criticism before or after the parting of relations?

LOL what? Parting of relations? What? Criticism? Huh?