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Thread: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash

Created on: 05/08/13 10:23 AM

Replies: 430

Romans


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/07/13 6:08 AM

THE ONLY VISIBLE CHANGE IS THE STP TABLE I could have got a bigger change by pulling the flies.

What about the two areas in the fuel trim that were leaned out, Any change there ?

(ignoring the 0 TPS column, cause we don't need it)

Have you made adjustments in the IAP map to compensate ?

PCV maps are in %change. So we go to the equivalent cells in out ECU fuel map and use the WRT % adjust button and apply the same.

ECU 53, 76 100% PCV, 60 80 100%,,,,, Translation in real time is not exact, keep a eye on Auto tune after each test run to confirm changes.

Then we use the graph view to "smooth" out the bumps. Viola... my piggy lost its tail.

If you have very few Trims changes come back after PCV map is reset to all Zeros then you have done it.

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oz14


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/07/13 7:10 AM

What about the two areas in the fuel trim that were leaned out, Any change there ?

No, strangely they were unchanged. The advertised changes said no fuel map changes, and there weren't any.

Thus far I have only removed the 0TPS fuel,trim and AFR entries from PVC.
I've added significant fuel to 1.2% in ECU.

In 2nd or 3rd, take bike to 8000+ rpm then cut throttle. Very smooth decel, no pops, no burbles.
If you add a little breaking you can hear some decel burbles. A little harder on the breaks and bang.
The brakes applied means less vacuum? So I'm going to experiment with adding fuel in the IAP only at 5000-3000 at the two higher IAP vacuum points. Fuel cells are very low values at this point, I hope this will help.

I found that I had to consciously make sure the throttle was closed. I must have "learned" to hold the throttle just open as the revs went through 4000 to avoid the pop. For this reason I think a bit of fuel at 1.8% is a good idea. I will add a little in the 5000-3000 range at 1.8% in ECU too, maybe 50% add.

It's a lot of testing to go, but I'm confident we can dial away decel pop, and also smooth the "dive" Hub dislikes so much on lift. Once this is right I'll start on migrating the PCV map I to the ECU.



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Hub


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/07/13 7:41 AM

THE ONLY VISIBLE CHANGE IS THE STP TABLE
I could have got a bigger change by pulling the flies.
I know you can toggle a lot of stuff, I did see the video. I've done this fly [screw] pulling/locking open [flies] fooling a remote actuator/tre it = 3 different ways.

I haven't improved the engine to make it take higher revs
That's [soft] wear is where I'm staying too. It's a throwaway bike. Buy the time you freshen up the bike with all the goodies, a stocker will come out and take yours out. And time goes so quick.

I asked to have the closed throttle fuel cut removed - and was told it was done. It feels different.
I can cut fuel all day long. And it sure feels different here is just a 1 or an 0 is my guess?

It has reinforced my opinion that the 2008-2011 models actually have a non-table way of adjusting fuel per gear.
And did some dash light come on with a breakout code of the fuel cells all out of whack? And on top of that, no gear map?

I'm more taking a guess again is if my step actually has a map scheduling for each sensor's input? I'd say yes. That gear map has to be there. I've played with the kit-ECU's gear map and it gives you that option in the racing software.

I'm asking myself; where am I going to go with this? I can't race the bike, nor need to. I've got the grunt covered with the flies open/hacked/removed. I have yet to disconnect the tone wheels to see watt happens? I'll be too involved hacking this bike all in the spider 'web of wires' again.

I've gots use is pretty much covered on the outside looking in [and then some]...



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Hub


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/07/13 8:24 AM

It's a lot of testing to go, but I'm confident we can dial away decel pop, and also smooth the "dive" Hub dislikes so much on lift. Once this is right I'll start on migrating the PCV map I to the ECU.

Wait a minute. 'Dial away the dive?' Dive [to me] means loss of HP. It's a safe mode. An ign/fuel trim. The whole point is [if] you want the power curve down lower, buy all means, go for it. I'm trying to understand if the math goes there or it locks you out, sends that dash code you blew out [broke out] of a cell that did not compute.

In other words, you are handcuffed to that ign/fuel trim? You are working off a preset, correct? You plot a cell that has to be within the math or the dash is on. So how can you smooth out the curve if it curves within the safe zone so you do not break into the FULL map.

Isn't it more like parts is parts and maps are maps? Change my thread pitch to 1.00 from a 1.25? So you are trying to get to 100 [for argument sake pick a number] and you can only go as low as 1.20 in the cell. You are locked out if you cell in a number, say is 1.19 on a grid, and the dash pops on that says, 'Breakout.'

So in a way, you cannot break into another [map] layer and think this is going to go down the chain of command in that 3-D trickle up/truckle down on the WOT&Lift mapping.

And that thing about vacuum on lift. It looks to me [in my vid] that the IAP is being pulled on equally? For every action there is an equal and opposite? So on video, idle is 9 pounds but the cylinder closes with 14.7 worth of volume. Do not bring in fuel to air ratio. If you do, the liquid displaces that volume equally in a physical sense, meaning.

Lift is 14.7 and WOT is at 0. Pretty much opposite if you think about it. When the engine is stopped, the needle goes to zero. That says atmospheric pressure. When at lift, the needle swings from 0 to 14.7. See the constant? The Penultimate number you work off of is 760mmHg = 0, or 1 amt, or the 1ATMO, is The Penultimate Number? Make sense is that map in limp using that one number?

It's a preset grid, right? It's play with my cells in 760mmHgride The Limp. Analog wise, you have 100 to 900mmHg to run in FULL mode. In limp, you keep using 760mmHg as your math number in Digital [is one number] you are handcuffed to.



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Romans


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/07/13 8:09 PM

So I'm going to experiment with adding fuel in the IAP only at 5000-3000 at the two higher IAP vacuum points. Fuel cells are very low values at this point, I hope this will help.

It will, also make note of the timing advance. At 10 degrees no backfire, jumps to over 26.5 in a area we can only reach on RPM decell. Between the two lies the fix.

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Grn14


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/08/13 2:47 PM

Maybe a tad off topic here...IDK...I removed my PCV today...and reinstalled the stock ECU.I went for a blast...

Okay...the bike felt a shade more buzzy.This is all stock now.It shifted a shade more notchy.It had a 'very mild' hesitation(power lag) right off of idle(when I punched it)...and I thought I could feel a very 'subtle' power drop(tiny)when opening her up running hard up through the mid range(then punching her) in certain gears.I assume that's the 'safe mode'....I had my TC 'off' for the comparo ride.Yoshi duals not removed.


Okay..fuel mileage also seemed a shade less.

Now...I came back...reinstalled my Flashed ECU.Went for a blast.All the above was gone.It felt smoother.It shifted better.The fuel mileage was back up again.Virtually zero backfire...at least I couldn't get her to.Yoshi duals on her.

The mid range 'power drop'(very mild I can tell ya that)was gone.TC 'off'.The throttle felt much crisper and immediate.I won't be reinstalling my stock ECU again....Ivan nailed it.As far as the PCV...IDK....I can't feel a difference from with or without...EXCEPT....it's one less thing to run my ECU through...which is fine by me.She's noticeably smoother with his ECU flash....very nice(again).


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 6/8/2013 @ 2:50 PM *

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Romans


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/08/13 8:23 PM

..and I thought I could feel a very 'subtle' power drop(tiny)when opening her up running hard up through the mid range(then punching her) in certain gears.I assume that's the 'safe mode'.

Grn that will be the secondary throttle plates opening sooner with flashed ECU. You can feel it for sure

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jkwool


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/09/13 7:37 AM

I have just released support for the 2006-2007 ZX14 in the Woolich Racing Tuned software. There is a complete kit available on our products page :)



Woolich Racing - Tune your Kawasaki to the Limit...

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Hub


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/09/13 10:58 AM



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Grn14


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/09/13 11:24 AM

VERY cool Hub;)...I've been experimenting with my cam 'resonance' as well.Actually,I'm trying to stop it from affecting the FPS.I think I've pretty much got it toned out now.A few minor applications of foam padding...seems to be doing the trick.Haven't tried the salt deal yet....?????

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Hub


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/09/13 5:02 PM

Shit, I'd go right for the salt and forgo the foam.



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Hub


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Oh Ivan?? Hubs to Ivan!!
06/09/13 8:48 PM

This is for Ivan only so don't anyone read it. It's just shop talk. Say Ivan, I can see all those tethers hanging like wrench sizes on a pegboard. Someone needs a map, you borrow/buy bike(s), bring a tether down, load a bin for the bike. It's more a Woolich/Ivan my flashe's a reach around anyway for that customer base. I can see the shop will slowly evolve from a pc to tether$ with bin$.

And then I reach in Wooly's wallet, he sponsor's my pit for a promotional season. Oh do I have a promising pit to do some damage. I didn't say that. Oh and if I could get mommy teapot a little backdoor me&he.



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Hub


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Oh Brock The Clockiss Ticking Down
06/09/13 9:08 PM

Not you again?! I'm talking to Brock. I'm having a little bench racing question and it's more a one on one kind of convo. Say Brock, I was just having a conversation with Ivan about his 'house of tethers.' I figured you both have something in common with tre's? ONe is still asleep at a Motel6, and the OFFer sir is the 1320 is a lot safer tree? How common [inn] close did I get?

And since a bin is a bin, a new bike is a new bike, a no lock you can't hack into: once the factory catches wind of diss? I don't know? Is the pc on the way out? Nothing is lockable? Do we tool up? Are we all in an, 'unlock my race bike' sort of era?

For how long or how short? And I mean how short is that tether's tick? So do you see a trend and will miss the boat, have Guhl to hold your wallet you keep reaching around for it? You are tethered to old school, oh so oooold school?



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Hub


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Guhl, WATTHELL Just Happened?
06/09/13 9:22 PM

I can't get a break here. Did you? Are you? I'm not going to repeat it. Oh Guhlly, watt can I say? I mean all that work and someone goes open source kind of. You hacked into, then someone hacks into yours. I mean is that just, I don't know? _________ Fill in the blank.

I feel for ya guy. Ivan and Brock, how can I say this, is it the economics of it? Guhlly goes obsolete? Maybe bring your price down? And who is going to work it as hard as Ivan'smoothing? Ivan has dyno. Brock has dyno. You need a dyno. Forgo the dyno and bring down the bill.

I think you're next move is going to be _________ WATT'$ My Line?



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Hub


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/09/13 9:26 PM

And now back to our regular program...



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Grn14


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/09/13 10:12 PM

This just in.....my motorcycle has never run this smooth....Ivan flashed ECU.Okay...back to our show....

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Hub


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/09/13 10:37 PM

WAD I tell ya, Ivan! Another sat is fried reach around. They are out there. Like I said... WAD a killing to be made!

Hmmm...okay....go ahead and use it then..I guess...If you're determined to;)



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Grn14


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/10/13 3:19 PM

Can you please explain..."reach around"?Thanks.

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hagrid


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/10/13 4:51 PM

LMAO!! He means "reach around" and grab your wallet for another mapisscrapis.



Yoshis!! GO NINJEE!!!

Fat chicks at Wal-Mart: NOT RECOMMENDED

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Hub


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/10/13 6:07 PM

This just in.....my motorcycle has never run this smooth....Ivan flashed ECU.Okay...back to our show...

I called up Ivan to get my bike tuned up. Ivan's service is, hold on, let me reach around the back of my pocket and reach for my wallet. I'm a pick-a-pocketuner. My expiration date is 0-that month and my 3 numbers on the back are a one and a two and a three. Yes, I live at that address. My SS number is... Ivan, I'm just buying a mapisscrapiss, I could probably Wooly one for the same bend of my folding italian leather with a hitch stitching done around the border... Enough talking about my wallet.

Can you please explain..."reach around"?Thanks.

This is wear out I bendover and place the red car PIT down is for any clown that wants to say I'm pointing fingers at any one specifically and I have observed this for most of my life is for someone to open said wallet and buy a car? Buy a home? Furniture to fill it is that 'reach around' for something? Now were did I put my wallet?

LMAO!! He means "reach around" and grab your wallet for another mapisscrapis.
I hide so much in the open with my sentence. How do those clowns keep missing the point? The pun? The I'm the one I'm talking about and I have to reach around and lay out the read carpet is they are so vain they think I'm talking about them, their sooooooo vain, I thought you were talking about my map is crap is hold on I got a phone call...



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oz14


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/12/13 5:02 PM

And that thing about vacuum on lift. It looks to me [in my vid] that the IAP is being pulled on equally?

Hmm, I've been wondering about that. So far adding fuel in the pop zone at 80 (highest vacuum) seems not to do much.
Where does the IAP actually measure vac? Between throttle plates and cylinder? No it's in the air box, so on closed throttle decel IAP will be low? I've been adjusting wrong column?

Hub, I'll try an experiment to test whether we are limited in how much or little fuel we add in tables. If you're prepared to reach around I'll bet I can squirt the injector with enough fuel to flood the engine and no dash light.
IMHO the ECU has no such limits. A smart ECU might detect a piggy doing the wrong thing (suspecting it was a bad injector or fuel pump fault) but if the ECU says open the gates who is to judge it wrong? Sure it has physical limits - maximum squirt time while valves are open, or max fuel due to injector size and fuel pressure.

I seriously doubt there is a fail safe in the ECU code itself. The EFI people assumed no one would be in there with a set of digital jetting tools. When they wrote the maps, they had the bike wired up like a heart surgery patient, measured everything, set and forgot. Next model to the table. It wouldn't surprise me if they had the equivalent of an autotune to write the tables, an uber version with lots more inputs.



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Hub


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/12/13 9:51 PM

Hmm, I've been wondering about that.
I like the way you think. There is that WOT is 0. Zero means we have no engine running, we look at the gauge. We now have engine running and we WOT, notice the needle hits 0. When upon lift, the needle swings in the opposite and it reads 0. So for every action there is this equal and opposite I meant. And I mean, we can see the needle ping right at 14.7 psi on lift. That to me reads 0 on and 0 off. Think about watt that penultimate number computes out to be?

So far adding fuel in the pop zone at 80 (highest vacuum) seems not to do much.
I believe this has something to do with PAIR and the 'fresh air causing the pop' on lift? And just at throttle opening is how I interpretate the pop action. PAIR is either disabled [no pop] or in operation w/pop.

Where does the IAP actually measure vac? Between throttle plates and cylinder? No it's in the air box, so on closed throttle decel IAP will be low? I've been adjusting wrong column?
Yes. IAP measures vac between throttle plate and cylinder. Air screw idle hole is between throttle plate and v-stack. The 3rd hole is the sync hole and that is outside with the IAP hole. No, nothing to do with the air box. We are looking at the vacuum after the throttle plate is where it's low. So there is plenty of air to catch up in the box with the throttle plate closed. Make sense?

Hub, I'll try an experiment to test whether we are limited in how much or little fuel we add in tables. If you're prepared to reach around I'll bet I can squirt the injector with enough fuel to flood the engine and no dash light.
I believe you can too. If [my] pig can do it I do not see why not its own mapping can't. Wink-Wooly-Wink!

IMHO the ECU has no such limits. A smart ECU might detect a piggy doing the wrong thing (suspecting it was a bad injector or fuel pump fault) but if the ECU says open the gates who is to judge it wrong? Sure it has physical limits - maximum squirt time while valves are open, or max fuel due to injector size and fuel pressure.
Correct. MHO may think it may be an overheating of the injector so you might be in a handcuffing as how limited the parts are. FPM and all that limitation.

I seriously doubt there is a fail safe in the ECU code itself.
Are you saying there is a code for the code and it backs up twice? Meaning, backs up its own code it initially sent? Or are you saying...? Because it goes something like this:
Digital is the ECU. Analog is the sensor. Code is the ECU that takes over the sensor. Code fails = ECU goes BellyUp. So there is no backup to backup once the ECU backs up a sensor. It's back to the 3Ti that tie in.
1. Sensor - Physical part is 1 of 3 parts.
2. Backup - Electrical part that takes over the physical part.
3. ECU - Fails if all else fails. Show me the code's backup. Make sense?

The EFI people assumed no one would be in there with a set of digital jetting tools. When they wrote the maps, they had the bike wired up like a heart surgery patient, measured everything, set and forgot. Next model to the table. It wouldn't surprise me if they had the equivalent of an autotune to write the tables, an uber version with lots more inputs.
It does sound plausible. I mean, they are handcuffed to FI as in 760mmHg and the grid of 100 to 900mmHg. So 760mmHg is in the 'ideal' center and the rich/lean head out in said directions.

That means it has to match in the math. I run in the 100 ~ 900mmHg range, I have to compute when I code into the 760mmHg backup. See, it's that flash of being either in the hard or in the soft. I'm just using some car site's computer abstract for these settings inside the ECU. So I would think hard is the hard, abrupt advance when the code is set. The soft is in that 100 ~ 900mmHg mapping and that includes that smoother, softer advance curve.

It still takes man to send in the [matheory] input to make the computer function as it does. So man has to set parameters or breaks out of the theory. And does that plot on the scale measure what is supposed to be mapped? Yes. I mean, you have cam timing, lift, duration time. The stroke and that advance curve in degrees as per length of rod and where do we fire it off for peak HP? 10° is usually idle or full retard, 33.6° is full advance for the R, and no data for the 14's full adv.

So see where you are stuck or handcuffed at the 10/33.6° handcuffing? Could you make more HP if you ran down to 34/35°? Only your map schedule would know for sure... Drool Icon



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Romans


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/13/13 7:36 PM

So far adding fuel in the pop zone at 80 (highest vacuum) seems not to do much.

I believe this has something to do with PAIR and the 'fresh air causing the pop' on lift? And just at throttle opening is how I interpretate the pop action. PAIR is either disabled [no pop] or in operation w/pop.

Before our new toys I have performed this test so many times I can't count. With pair system in play and with out. Pair system takes allot of the blame for our beloved back fire. IMO wrongfully so. Fact is, If you can keep AFR on decell in on a workable area of the sensor you can map it out.


33.6° is full advance for the R, and no data for the 14's full adv.

33.6 ?

ZX-14 Full Advance ranges from a high of 34.9 in the mid range and falls to 32.5 at wide open throttle

ZX-14R Full Advance ranges from a high of 36.6 in the mid range and falls to 30.0 at Wide open throttle

Could you make more HP if you ran down to 34/35°? Only your map schedule would know for sure... Drool Icon

Playing with that now. Gen one 4 degrees of advance was the magic #. What # do we like for the new stroker motor.

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oz14


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/13/13 8:34 PM

Are you saying there is a code for the code and it backs up twice? Meaning, backs up its own code it initially sent? Or are you saying...?

I'm suggesting that once the ECU calculates (in "code" as in machine code) the fuel or spark that will be what happens. I'm suggesting that the only thing that will limit the values we choose in the ECU are the limitations of the hardware (how much fuel can actually be sent in a cycle).

I'm also suggesting that the ECU can interpret the values between the cells very smoothly. Digital signal processing is pretty clever, and the ECU will have created a smoothed curve to determine the value to use. It wont be as simple as a 50% TPS is 516 and 60% is 600 so 55% will be 84/2 + 516 = 558. It will look at the "curve" across a range of cells in three dimensions to work out the right value.

Pair system takes allot of the blame for our beloved back fire...

Totally agree. My PAIR is on the floor in the garage and my bike pops - and before/after without PC/ECU changes was very minor.

Gen one 4 degrees of advance was the magic #.

Ok, so I haven't changed any ignition timing yet. I was going to play with the timing to remove the decel pop, as the IAP changes (although as above I think I've changed the high vac values and should have changed the low vac values) didn't help. I added 30% fuel in 80 column, 15-20 in 69 column - maybe not enough?
But this timing comment intrigues me - do I highlight the entire ignition map and apply a 4deg advance?
Much simpler than moving the sensor.


* Last updated by: oz14 on 6/13/2013 @ 8:37 PM *



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Hub


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RE: Ivan Guhl Brock ECU Flash
06/15/13 7:04 PM

But this timing comment intrigues me - do I highlight the entire ignition map and apply a 4deg advance?

That intriguing question asks, do I advance 4° and the gear map sends me losing 2.4° anyway?

2.4° = 1stGen is short rod

6.6° = 2ndGen is long rod

32.5° = I'm going to guess this goes bye way of tre ~ timing goes limp is this is eliminated

34.9° = Gen1 locks this and you get the faster squirt is the flame front

33.6° = Gen2 says this goes full and this is back to hacking the same timing elimination map lookup tables

30.0° = Show me... Sanda flow... Show me... wax on wax off? (((HI)))



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