I did some searching and I'm sorry but it seems a lot has changed in the past coupe of years so I wanted to get an update on what the state of the flashing industry is.

Basically, I have a Yosh 4-2-1 and hearing I don't even need to dyno it, I've not heard of that before, I always thought full systems require dyno work to work right. I was also told from a highly reputed tuner that full systems whether it be Brock's, Arka's or Yosh all work fine with the same map in the ECU.

Can you guys confirm, of clarify?

* Last updated by: Auron on 7/22/2017 @ 11:41 AM *

"Work fine" is why Romans and some others still recommend a PC5 for the best possible performance. I Use Romans's map but I am sure it was not created with my exhaust. It does work fine. After self tuning, I made some changes mostly to the lower end of the power band. The upper end required only a couple small changes if any at all. I was using a straight 13.2 AFR throughout my entire target AFR table and Romans map has various AFRs. Had I stuck with Romans's AFR table, Autotune might not have detected any need for changes even though I have a Tsukigi exhaust and Romans uses Akrapovich, I believe.

After all the tuning, I switched back to Romans mapping and liked it a bit better than my custom tune. I will have to check it against Autotune again to see if Romans is as close to perfect as it appears it might be.

Get the flash and if you feel it could be better, use Autotune. I think you'll be satisfied with the flash unless you are running at high altitude.

I'm down with the autotune, I live in Denver and ride to sea level quite often.

So what you're saying is a flash takes the place of a dyno tune (usually required for an autotune) and all you need to do is get flashed, add your PCV and autotune and you'll always have optimal fueling?

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* Last updated by: Auron on 7/22/2017 @ 6:12 PM *

The flash takes the place of all the modules. Back in the old days before flashing, you needed a PC to change your fueling. The only way to know you had good fueling was to tune on a dyno with an O2 sensor they ran down the exhaust pipe from the muffler. The O2 sensor told the tuner when his adjustments were hitting the AFR he was looking for. When the tune was done, the adjustments could be shared with others who had the same bike and as you initially pointed out, the same pipe. The map was perfect for the bike it was tuned on and it worked just fine for other bikes.

Then came AutoTune. You could do the same thing yourself. Test your exhaust via an O2 sensor welded into the pipe and accept adjustments suggested by AutoTune through PC5 software. No need for a dyno anymore if you had the stones to ride your bike to redline over and over to sample the whole range of throttle positions and rpm. Also, Autotune (or Wideband2 which I always recommend because it has a few more features if you care to use them and costs just a bit more) DOES automatically adjust fueling on the fly but it is way too slow for sport riding where the rpm and TP is rapidly changing. The O2 sensor only samples 10 times per second and it is usually correcting itself +/- until it hits the exact adjustment for a given TP/rpm. When you're racing your rpm is flying up and down every couple seconds. Autotune can't get it right that quick so it is constantly starting over ---and basically useless for that kind of riding. AutoTune self adjusts your fueling very efficiently while you are cruising because your rpm and TP remain steady. AutoTune works very well for finding the correct adjustments to achieve your desired AFR throughout the map but you need to do separate runs holding the throttle steady at whatever TP you are tuning. You do your run at 50% throttle and then accept the suggested changes. Do that a few more times and you should have it. Now move on to 60% throttle and tune that in the same way. The adjustment Autotune does on the fly is not permanently saved to the map. It only applies while you are riding. Your map remains what it is unless you accept the suggested changes. If you are changing altitudes often, Autotune will work for the range you cruise in but if you come down out of the mountains and want to sport ride at sea level, you will need to tune for optimum fueling. Do that once and save the map so you can just switch over to it rather than retuning every time you get to sea level.

Right around the time AutoTune came out, flashing was starting. Busas were getting flashed in 2009. Flashing is a permanent change to the map in the ECU. It is the same thing as having a PC5 with a map in it. It does adress a lot of other parameters a PC does not such as cooling fans and timing. A flash does what a PC5 does, you just can't change maps. You can adjust the flashed map if you install a PC5 and that will give you all of the benefits of both.

Woolich makes it's own self tuning module and I would probably look into using that over a PC5 if you are going to get a Woolich flash.

The ECU has a lot more cells than a Dynojet map. The PC5 has to make an estimate to adjust for the cells it lacks. Apparently this is pretty effective but a flash adjusts every cell of the ECU map. No estimating. I believe Woolich self tuners have the same cells as the ECU map so that is why I suggested you look into that if you get a flash and want to self tune as well. The more complex map of a flash may be the whole reason some feel it is superior to or as good as the perfect tuning you can get with a PC5 and Autotune. Autotune might get it perfect but the mao is broken into fewer cells. I believe a DJ table has half as many cells as the ECU table.

ECU mapping has come a long way. The way we create flash files is on the dyno for the specific mods of the bike. So we make a flash for the zx-14r for exhaust x, y but z hasn't been on the dyno yet so we wait, also with mod e, f and g on and off, etc etc. So we've created hundreds of flash files for various bikes depending on the mods to the bike. Now, we've confirmed it numerous times via 3rd parties but, flashing the ecu with the fueling for example holds true no matter where it goes to within 2%. Anytime it's ever been off, is because there's been something wrong with the bike in question and not the flash. We fully build each flash, and fine tune everything. We've put in thousands of passes on the dyno for the ZX-14R.

Unfortunately the flash game can be dirty, we've found in other companies flashes, our own files. With thousands of individual tuning cells in the fueling and ignition mapping for example, it's impossible to get the exact same numbers in every cell. Yet, low and behold, we've found our maps being sold by other companies as their own. It can be a frustrating business.

Anyway, for the most part yes, an ecu flash takes place of any piggy back devices. However, a PC5 can still be very useful in instances where we haven't created a flash for the specific mods done to a bike. For example, if you have an exhaust we haven't seen on the dyno to create a flash file for, we can usually use a flash for a different exhaust of same design and be pretty close, but some people do custom mods and we can't account for the changes, so a PC5 on top of the flash for the fine trimmings, can be beneficial. Or, we have a lot of guys who do custom airbox mods, exhaust mods etc that just need that little tiny bit of extra tweaking that we can't do without seeing it on our dyno.

We've tune many ZX14Rs, high horsepower drag bikes that do 8's regularly and road race track bikes, cross country tourers etc. It's a versatile bike that we've had a lot of experience with.

Now I'm not here saying who is best, worst, good, bad or ugly. Just talk to the companies you're going with before hand and I do recommend if you're ever questioning it, go get a baseline dyno done locally before and after to prove the change. And whether or not you decide to purchase an ecu flash from me, feel free to email, call, facebook message etc to discuss your bike and ask any questions you have, we're here to help! (although we aren't very active on the forums, i apologize but we only have so much time in the day)

a PC5 on top of the flash for the fine trimmings, can be beneficial.

Doesn't the mapping grid in the ECU have A LOT more cells than a DJ map? So if you flash fueling
(or not) and the owner uses a PC5 to self tune, isn't he making the stock map cruder even if the cells he has available to tune produce a better AFR?