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Thread: clutch is slipping, but it isn't?

Created on: 09/17/16 03:07 PM

Replies: 32

Rook


Rook's Gravatar

Joined: 03/28/09

Posts: 17414

RE: clutch is slipping, but it isn't?
09/21/16 12:51 PM

Earlier this year I replaced hydraulic lines (brakes and clutch) with stainless and new fluid (Castrol SRF). Also used new oil (Rotella T6, same as I have used before) when I rebuilt the clutch.

I always use Rotella syn in my gen1 and have 0 problems.

When riding the bike, anything past 3000-3500 rpms incurs noticeable slipping, the RPM's climb, but the bike does not move forward like it used to. Clutch does not engage right off the bar when you start releasing the lever like it used to, and the shift lever requires much less force to engage a gear, it practically falls into place with hardly any clutch lever pull. The bike may be vibrating more than it used to, not sure. Any ideas on what this might be, or where I should start looking?

The problem is happening when the clutch should be fully engaged. The clutch will not fully engage. It is not a problem of the clutch disengaging.



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE flies out, full Tsukigi Cannon exhaust, BMC race filter, Muzzy's block off plates, Super Sprox 17t output sprocket, AFM 45t rear sprocket, EK zzz 530 chain, Gilles Tooling axle adjusters, PC5, Romans map, AT-200, Ignition Module, LCD-200, Speedohealer V4, Glow-Shift gauges, Illumiglow 210 mph clock faces, HM PLUS quickshifter, Factory Pro EVO Shift Star, RC's oil pump cover, Moto-D magnetic oil drain plug, MIT billet oil filler cap, Shorai 14A2 Lithium battery, Spiegler SS clutch and brake lines, HyperPro RSC steering damper, LighTech fuel tank cap, Vortex rearsets, lightweight mudflap bracket, FP Racing preload adjusters, Ohlins FGRT807 forks and KA544 shock, Carrazzeria Tri-R wheels, Bridgeport 90° valve stems, CZ 320mm front rotors, Galfer rear wave rotor, Pazzo levers, ProBots Dzus fasteners and many other bolts replaced with aluminum or Ti, Vortex mirror blocks, CRG bar end mirrors, LSL frame sliders, axle sliders, billet bar ends, 2WheelWorkz muffler

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TigerFire13



Location: Athens, AL

Joined: 12/22/15

Posts: 59

RE: clutch is slipping, but it isn't?
09/21/16 6:38 PM

Figured out a substantial part of what is causing slippage:


The slipper eliminator when fitted to my bike causes the nut to stick out past the shaft 0.6mm. Remember the push rod that slips into this shaft, which then presses on the outermost clutch plate? .6mm is a considerable amount of effective "clutch lever pull/clutch disengagement". I reinstalled the stock slipper springs and retorqued the nut. The paint marks now match up (those seen in earlier pictures), and the nut measures almost a perfect 0.0mm offset from the shaft. This is the result:

I believe what we see here is the direct result of a few hundred miles of vastly accelerated wear due to the clutch not being allowed full engagement. Put everything back together (now with original slipper and stock springs) and took it for a ride. The slipping is much reduced. Still present, but diminished. The feel of pulling the clutch lever is unchanged, and the feel of the shifter lever is still too easy. Tomorrow I plan to pull the stack, measure the friction thicknesses and compare them to book service limits/ranges. I may try to swap a 2.6mm steel for a 2.9mm, we will see what measurements turn up.

Thoughts?



2013 Pearl Stardust White ZX-14R
Two Brothers 4-2-1 Carbon Fiber w/ Ceramic coated headers, Sargent Seat, Rostra Cruise Control, Oxford Heated Grips, Murph's Pegs, Denali Soundbomb, SW-Motech PLX Contour racks and Alu-Rack, Givi V35's and V56 w/ Kawi OEM trim, Fenda Extenda and Puig Hugger.

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Rook


Rook's Gravatar

Joined: 03/28/09

Posts: 17414

RE: clutch is slipping, but it isn't?
09/21/16 7:44 PM

Sounds like you nailed it with that slipper eliminator. I would definitely give them an earfull if you determine there was no installation error. I would come right out and request full reimbursement for new clutch plates and a refund or repair of the part.

If I had a slipper clutch, I think I'd want it eliminated too. Hope you can keep that mod somehow.

Thanks for posting ongoing discoveries on this.



'08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE flies out, full Tsukigi Cannon exhaust, BMC race filter, Muzzy's block off plates, Super Sprox 17t output sprocket, AFM 45t rear sprocket, EK zzz 530 chain, Gilles Tooling axle adjusters, PC5, Romans map, AT-200, Ignition Module, LCD-200, Speedohealer V4, Glow-Shift gauges, Illumiglow 210 mph clock faces, HM PLUS quickshifter, Factory Pro EVO Shift Star, RC's oil pump cover, Moto-D magnetic oil drain plug, MIT billet oil filler cap, Shorai 14A2 Lithium battery, Spiegler SS clutch and brake lines, HyperPro RSC steering damper, LighTech fuel tank cap, Vortex rearsets, lightweight mudflap bracket, FP Racing preload adjusters, Ohlins FGRT807 forks and KA544 shock, Carrazzeria Tri-R wheels, Bridgeport 90° valve stems, CZ 320mm front rotors, Galfer rear wave rotor, Pazzo levers, ProBots Dzus fasteners and many other bolts replaced with aluminum or Ti, Vortex mirror blocks, CRG bar end mirrors, LSL frame sliders, axle sliders, billet bar ends, 2WheelWorkz muffler

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TigerFire13



Location: Athens, AL

Joined: 12/22/15

Posts: 59

RE: clutch is slipping, but it isn't?
09/23/16 5:23 PM

First column is the original pack in the bike when I first noticed a bit of slipping. I did an oil change, no improvement. Went back to stock levers here, no improvement. This is when I replaced the outermost steel (a 2.3mm) with a 2.9mm in an effort to thicken the stack. Second column shows this configuration. I then left for my South Dakota trip. Slowly got worse during the trip. When I came back, I installed the new oem clutch pack with all 2.6mm steels, as well as the slipper eliminator and stronger springs. As I found out 2 posts up, the eliminator was causing a fair amount of slip. The third column shows the measurements of the current pack. 3 color shading references thickness. green is max standard, yellow is min standard, and red is service limit. By my measurements I have 2 almost new packs... It's probably safe to say I ride timid compared to most riders, but I expected to see more wear in the 3rd column. No steels show any discoloration or warp, in either pack... measurements were taken in three places on each piece, then averaged for the result shown. Currently waiting on an email from Brocks about the possibility of my kit being defective, hopefully hear back from them early next week. Also in the chart is spring free length. 32.1mm is standard, 31.0 is service limit. Looking at the numbers says I shouldn't have any slip at all, right?


* Last updated by: TigerFire13 on 9/23/2016 @ 5:23 PM *



2013 Pearl Stardust White ZX-14R
Two Brothers 4-2-1 Carbon Fiber w/ Ceramic coated headers, Sargent Seat, Rostra Cruise Control, Oxford Heated Grips, Murph's Pegs, Denali Soundbomb, SW-Motech PLX Contour racks and Alu-Rack, Givi V35's and V56 w/ Kawi OEM trim, Fenda Extenda and Puig Hugger.

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Hub


Hub's Gravatar

Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 11119

RE: clutch is slipping, but it isn't?
09/23/16 8:54 PM

Was the center hub removed? See the tool pic and the pink paint is not swabbed across, and looks like a socket was hammering the nut; see the tool marks on the hub nut? Might the slipper be cocked somehow to keep the pack 'unloaded' and cause a slip? That system has a home and I believe ramps up and breaks plate? Then, you have the star spring washers having a certain stacking? Didn't cover reading the book, just looked at the blowout rendering.


* Last updated by: Hub on 9/23/2016 @ 8:55 PM *



Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

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TigerFire13



Location: Athens, AL

Joined: 12/22/15

Posts: 59

RE: clutch is slipping, but it isn't?
09/24/16 12:02 PM

Was the center hub removed? See the tool pic and the pink paint is not swabbed across, and looks like a socket was hammering the nut; see the tool marks on the hub nut?

I removed the hub nut to install the slipper eliminator. I don't have access to air, and I tried using a 12 point socket that was available with a 1/2" breaker bar. This is why there are tool marks on the hub nut. I stopped as soon as it started to slip off. Ran to the hardware store and picked up a 6 point socket in 3/4" drive, and the proper bar. This allows me to remove and install the nut without an impact.

Might the slipper be cocked somehow to keep the pack 'unloaded' and cause a slip?

The spacer (slipper eliminator) is a very precise fit on the hub nut, and has no slop with which to not line up with the groove the spacer faces up against.

That system has a home and I believe ramps up and breaks plate? Then, you have the star spring washers having a certain stacking?

The torque limiter springs stack together so as not to interfere with each other, and that order has been preserved since original removal by way of zip tie. As long as the four fingers engage the sub clutch hub and do not overlap each other, order does not matter.


* Last updated by: TigerFire13 on 9/24/2016 @ 12:04 PM *



2013 Pearl Stardust White ZX-14R
Two Brothers 4-2-1 Carbon Fiber w/ Ceramic coated headers, Sargent Seat, Rostra Cruise Control, Oxford Heated Grips, Murph's Pegs, Denali Soundbomb, SW-Motech PLX Contour racks and Alu-Rack, Givi V35's and V56 w/ Kawi OEM trim, Fenda Extenda and Puig Hugger.

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chrly


chrly's Gravatar

Joined: 07/10/15

Posts: 661

RE: clutch is slipping, but it isn't?
04/02/18 11:35 AM

Tiger..What was teh final outcome here??

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TigerFire13



Location: Athens, AL

Joined: 12/22/15

Posts: 59

RE: clutch is slipping, but it isn't?
04/03/18 7:00 PM

Moved out of Iowa to Alabama almost a year ago now. The bike still doesn't seem quite right, but for now I'm just going with I'm out of my mind. I've tried changing away from Rotella T6 and going to Mobil 1 Racing 4T full synthetic, and I just did the 2nd change with it last weekend. I've been driving my car (Mustang Ecoboost) the last 4-5 months, so the bike still seems crazy fast in comparison. Maybe one of these days I'll try to find a dealership with a new 14R that will let me compare.



2013 Pearl Stardust White ZX-14R
Two Brothers 4-2-1 Carbon Fiber w/ Ceramic coated headers, Sargent Seat, Rostra Cruise Control, Oxford Heated Grips, Murph's Pegs, Denali Soundbomb, SW-Motech PLX Contour racks and Alu-Rack, Givi V35's and V56 w/ Kawi OEM trim, Fenda Extenda and Puig Hugger.

Link | Top | Bottom


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