Hello everyone! Since I live in VA and experience a range of elevations from sea level to 6000' above sea level, I'd like to keep the bike running great in all situations so I'm looking to add DJ's Autotune to my 08 14's PCV. After reading Rook's Autotune tutorial, the need to run the bike out in 5th or 6th gear on the streets has made me question self tuning, personally. Because of that, I was curious if I could just add Autotune, dyno the bike and then have the Autotune maintain that tune as the target tune?
If my assumption is correct, do I just set the dyno tuners map as my target value, turn on closed loop and leave the Autotune on so it adjusts all the time?
This one is for Rook, but I'll roll a little before he shows up.
I was curious if I could just add Autotune, dyno the bike and then have the Autotune maintain that tune as the target tune?
Yes.
... do I just set the dyno tuners map as my target value...
Yes/No. The dyno map is a no touch/save as a backup map. The target values were set with the dyno. However, yes, you could transfer the dyno map and let autotune change it out/clean it up, but remember, you are letting it learn that day of time/temp/ambient/atmo pressure of an open-learn; about to be saved. That's the whole point of autotune. Tune and capture, right?
For example, ever hit the perfect ambient/atmo/temp morning the bike feels so peppy than other days? You'd autotune that and save that map. Want the same effect on another day, run that morning map you saved.
... turn on closed loop and leave the Autotune on so it adjusts all the time?
Let's talk about loops. What I understand is that your '08 is open-loop, and that means tunable. Closed loop uses an 02 sensor and is not tunable. So when you say 'turn on closed loop' I'll read that as no. Closed means you can't change the mapping. Rather, this is the dyno map you do not want to mess with so you'd call this a closed-learned-map processed. Thus being the process was learned on the dyno. Whereas, yes, we can say in the abstract that open loop will cause autotune to open-learn. And now you save the relearned dyno map.
Then seat of the pants swapping from map1, being the closed-dyno map, to open-learn-dyno-saved map2 and who is the better performer? If I recall, the PC can hold two maps and it's a dongle kind of swap?
* Last updated by: Hub on 12/26/2020 @ 10:11 PM *
Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time
Thanks for getting back to me Hub, that is actually what I was hoping to hear! I just ordered an Open-box Autotune from Revzilla. With their first time buyer 10% discount, I picked it up for $220 shipped...can't wait to try it out!
I was curious if I could just add Autotune, dyno the bike and then have the Autotune maintain that tune as the target tune?
Sure. That would be the safe way to do it so you don't get busted by the cops. A dyno tune will cost a lot less than a 180 mph ticket! The tuner will use more advanced equipment than Autotune but it looks like they do a dyno run pretty much the same way I do an Autotune run on the road.
Autotune will maintain the AFR numbers that your tuner inputs to his fuel map. BUT Autotune is slow. It will correct the AFR for atmospheric pressure, temp, humidity, etc but it is only fast enough to do that whe you are holding a steady speed and rpm. It takes two or three seconds for the AFR to stabilize while Autotune searches for the correct fuel adjustment. I've recently heard of a couple systems that sample at a rate of 100x/second or more. The guy reported that it did keep his AFR spot on during drag racing runs at all rpm. I didn't ask what it costs but it's probably at least twice as much as Autotune. Plus, Autotune works with your DJ software and you can build an integrated system of DJ components that all work together. DJ is probably the best system to learn with and it's what tuners are familiar with.
If my assumption is correct, do I just set the dyno tuners map as my target value, turn on closed loop and leave the Autotune on so it adjusts all the time?
Your tuner will probably flash his mapping to your ECU. You would need to ask him for a PC5 file of the AFR table he used to tune your engine and then load that to your PC5. Then you have the correct fueling for dyno conditions in the ECU and the desired AFR in the PC5. Hook Autotune up and it will make fueling adjustments for altitude, etc. based on the target AFR ---basically a constant custom tune to achieve optimum AFRs no matter what conditions you are in. Autotune will always be correcting to maintain the AFR of your tune.
Autotune won't save the adjustments it made. It will be constantly updating them and sometimes it updates in the wrong direction. For example, when you roll off the throttle and decelerate, Autotune will be attempting to correct the AFR based on deceleration. There really is no correct AFR for deceleration but it's something the bike must do and Autotune has no choice but to sample and correct for that situation even though it has no relevance to the fueling you want when you are on the throttle. The AFR goes way lean when you decelerate so Autotune will add fuel to all those map cells it crosses through when the bike decelerates. Is this the end of the world, will he bike run SUPER rich now? No, not bad. It just corrects again once you hold a steady rpm and throttle position for that cell that was richened up by the decel. You set your Autotune within a reasonable range of correction like 10 or 20% so it can't add or subtract more than +/- 20% fuel. You always have your basic fueling numbers encoded to the ECU so it can't go far from those optimum numbers your tuner captured on the dyno when it was tuned in his shop.....as long as you use a reasonable range of adjustment. I would only use high adjustment percentages in tuning runs where I really knew the bike needed a large adjustment. I probably would never use high fuel percentage values steadily as you do when using Autotune to maintain the AFR in normal riding after the AFR was already tuned. For the changes in altitude you will experience, you might need to use a larger adjustment values in order for Autotune to close in on the target AFR quicker. But remember, it will only close in on he correct AFR while you are cruising and that is something I do very little of unless I'm going straight down a highway. Most times we are openning and closing throttle constantly. Autotune will not work for you in that kind of riding especially if you are at a drastically different altitude than the bike was tuned at. We talked with a guy in Africa WAY up in the mountains and AUtotune worked for him but it was not autotune running constantly adjusting that worked, it was where tuning runs were conducted at the new altitude and then the adjustments saved to the map. SO I think if you want the bike to run good up in the mountains, you will need to do some tuning runs up there and save them. No problem if you don't want to do 150 mph. Go 65, cut throttle and save. Just be aware when you go over 65, you didn't tune for that. The bike won't run well. So do another tuning run to 75 if you need to go that fast. If you need to do over 100, don't get caught!
I have never used Autotune at any altitude other than approximate sea level but I believe what I am telling you is what you will experience with Autotune. I do not believe it will work very well if you "just ride the bike" up in the mountains. You will need to run the bike through a proper tuning run for each throttle position you want to tune (which is probably all of them) and then save and apply changes immediately after.
So what now? your map is all screwed up for when you come back down the mountain!!!!
Then seat of the pants swapping from map1, being the closed-dyno map, to open-learn-dyno-saved map2 and who is the better performer? If I recall, the PC can hold two maps and it's a dongle kind of swap?
That's what you do. You buy a switch and hook up to the map switch inputs in the PC5. DJ has a switch with a convenient handlebar mount but you can use any small toggle switch. I use the mini switches like they use for guitars. You have Map Position 1 and Map Position 2 in the PC5. Map Position 1 is your default (will always go to map 1 if there is any malfunction). Map Position 1 will be the tuner's target AFR. Save your high altitude fueling changes to map position 2. That will be the tuners target AFR table + whatever fueling adjustments you SAVE from your high altitude tuning runs + whatever fueling adjustments were last recorded while running in Map Position 2. When you come back down the mountain, you flip to Map 1 again. Next time you go up, switch back to #2. If you need more than two maps, you can carry a laptop OR get a POD-300. I think that thing holds like 5 maps you can switch in/out the PC5.
So I guess I'm saying drk, you ain't getting out of this without doing some road tuning. I doubt Autotune will work fast and effectively enough on it's own once you get to 2000 feet (I would guess). It'll work, it will just be slower than hell. If you can hold a steady TP the whole time, fine.
Will you need a laptop like I used to do tuning runs? Probably best when you first learn to tune. After that, the POD-300 might be enough it is capable of accepting fuel trims to your map.
Tuning is interesting but while you are doing it, that is pretty much all you are aware of. It's not the fun of riding, it's the fascination of tuning that you experience. When you get it done, then you have fun riding again.
If you get into this, always feel free to ask questions. It's a fairly complex process before you have any experience with it. I'll give tyou step by step if you need it.
To show how AFR fluctuates constantly, here's my video of Autotune maintaining AFR as you ride. You'll notice it doesn't. It does in a few seconds when I cruise but every gear change, every change in rpm, every open close of the throttle, it needs to update. This is at sea level after the engine was tuned at sea level. You can imagine what a difference of 6000 feet would do....how different the fueling requirements would be. Onlt a saved map would be really good with that kind of elevation change. I'm sure I've gone up 500 feet and maybe down 500 feet. Neer had an issue but 6000? I would think so.
Let's talk about loops. What I understand is that your '08 is open-loop, and that means tunable. Closed loop uses an 02 sensor and is not tunable.
Quick Google:
Closed loop is when the ECU does refer to the o2 sensor for feedback. Using the o2 sensor the ECU will modify its fuel table based on the readings the o2 sensor is seeing. This is important in maintaining a perfect A/F ratio as there are so many variables affecting the tune of a motor at any given time.
Open loop is hardwired = one program no matter what the circumstances, follows the program until a person comes along and changes the program. Open loop is open to outside intervention of a human. AFR that is controlled by the fuel table alone (like it is on a stock Gen1 ZX-14) is open loop. Put on a PC5, it still is open loop. Yes the PC5 has a secondary program to adjust the ECU fuel table but together, the ECU fueling and the PC5 adjustments will never change unless a human comes along and does something to change it. The system is still hard wired even with the PC5.
Closed loop is a closed system, able to monitor and adjust itself while operating. There is no need for a person to do anything ever (theoretically). So yeah, closed loop must have an O2, boost pressure, exhaust gas, cylinder head temp or some kind of sensor to know what it needs to do to control itself. You put Autotune in your DJ network, now you have output flowing between the ECU and the PC5 and Autotune. Autotune creates input according to what its O2 sensor tells it and sends that input back to the PC5 which adjusts the fueling automatically. Works the same as a Gen2 14R O2 sensor except the ECU doesn't use the PC5 as a middleman. I imagine you need to disable the stock O2 sensor when you put Autotune on the Gen2. That is what I had to do for my busa which also has some kind of closed loop system with an O2 sensor on the stock pipe. No Autotune on the busa BTW. Aftermarket pipe, Bazzaz fuel controller with a good map, open looped. Never a problem. I have the Bazzaz Automatic tuner to go with it but never got around to trying yet.
Long>short is any time Autotune is running, it's collecting samples and adjusting the ECU fueling. So there we have a closed loop just like a stock system that monitors and adjusts fueling on its own. Turn Autotune OFF or remove it from the network, now it's open loop. Nothing will change the fueling except for a person.
