Not a great ride today. Was out flogging my 2012 (14,000 miles) and the clutch started slipping very badly. Was nursing her home and the red warning light came on followed by a battery symbol on the display. When I got home I checked the voltage on the display and it was only 11 volts. I could smell that something (probably the clutch) had burned some. I have motorcycle specific oil in it - no anti-friction stuff in there. The only motorcycle shop in town sucks. I am dreading taking her in to those clueless dudes but I am no mechanic.

Can a clutch issue result in a charging issue? How much should it cost about to fix a clutch if that's the problem?

* Last updated by: suedez on 2/17/2018 @ 2:20 PM *

Can't see how a clutch problem would cause a charging issue. I think you have an electrical issue and that is what you can smell. The clutch is immersed in oil so you won't smell it even if it is slipping, unlike a dry clutch in a car which you definitely can smell when it slips and overheats!

Check all the fuses. 11 volts is too low. You should have around 14.4v with the engine running at or above a fast idle and 12-13v with the engine off.
Can't really advise on the cost of a clutch fix/replacement as it can vary hugely from shop to shop but it's easily accessible so shouldn't take that long even if all the plates have to be replaced. I'd be surprised if that is the case though. I have over 30k on my 2012 with some hard use under it's belt and the clutch is still fine.

* Last updated by: pegscraper on 2/17/2018 @ 4:19 PM *

Is it possible the clutch is not slipping but some electrical demon messing with traction control?

Even though ones more of a stutter then slipping. Usually clutches start slipping with some warning over time.

Seems strange both happen at same time.

Can a clutch issue result in a charging issue?

I'm not sure I am correct about this but if you look at the positioning of the stator cover, it sure seems in about the right location to be turned by the input shaft. The input shaft, I know has no power in it when the clutch lever is pulled. That's why the clutch does what it is supposed to do when you stop in gear, take off or shift gears. the clutch lets go fully or partially according to how far you have the lever pulled. For some reason, your clutch is not doing what it is supposed to do which is to grip the transmission when the lever is released.

I would charge the battery up and don't worry about the fact it drew down with the motor running. Unless Hub or someone else can refute my hypothesis about that input shaft driving the alternator, what happened to your bike is to be expected and will rectify itself once the clutch is fixed.

How much should it cost about to fix a clutch if that's the problem?

1. Small possibility the cold shrunk the clutch pack height enough to allow slippage but unless you've been doing drag launches, I doubt the clutch plates could be worn enough in 14,000 miles to allow that tiny amount of shrinkage to make the clutch slip if it was holding in normal weather. Anyway, your oil temp probably went close to normal if the clutch was slipping for even just a little while. Probably the clutch pack height is (was) ok cold and hot.

2. Slight possibility the clutch plates were installed wrong at the factory. If the outermost one is not installed with the tangs in the special grooves rather than the fingers like all others, the outermost plate can fall out which definitely would reduce the stack height enough to slip. Probably not since this would have happened a long time ago if the clutch plates were not installed properly.

3. Clutch pressure plate is not retracting into the drum and against the stack of plates. You would feel extra slack in the lever at first but after you squeezed the lever a couple times, the fluid in the reservoir would fill the void and you would have normal pressure and normal lever feel. Your pressure plate might remain extended until the springs pushed it back in also pushing the extra fluid back up to the reservoir.

Why would the pressure plate have not retracted under the more than adequate spring tension of the clutch springs? Something would have had to have stuck. The master cylinder (probably not), the slave cylinder (more likely) or the pusher rod which is probably only lubricated by oil seeping in from the clutch compartment (most probable) or the thrust bearing pusher which is an extension of the pusher rod (possible but unlikely). It is possible that the thrust bearing and/or washer it rides on stuck from cold oil. Those parts could then fall out of place (probably down in oil pan and take them out when you drop the pan someday) and that would reduce the clutch pack height by a few mm which is a few times the allowable service limit for clutch plate wear and that would definitely make the clutch slip.

I say you have a look at the clutch plates through the oil filler hole first. Take a pic and post it. Be a 15 minute job and you will see if your pack is drastically off which I suspect it is. Then you decide if you want to take this in to the dipshits at the shop or do it yourself. I know I can guide you through a clutch pack assembly so it's up to you. It is complicated enough that careless mechanics under pressure could screw it up. I have a tutorial that would help a lot.

I have a feeling you will need to replace some fiber plates. A hundred fifty bucks. Get OEMs. Maybe you will need to adjust the clutch height which means one or two steels, maybe $30. Maybe that washer or thrust bearing--$20. Hopefully there is no clutch hub or drum gouging. If it were to be bad, that's $400-$600 for one or both. Probably fine if the clutch was just slipping and not grinding.

Very little chance of engine damage . Any pieces or particles would wash down into the sump. If this is the case, you will want to drop the pan and clean it and the pickup screen at your earliest convenience. Could be an oil pressure issue.

This is a little on the complicated side for a beginner but very doable if you have the time to wait for replies. The hardest part is keeping every part in the same order and orientation it came out in but that is not crucial. Probably no one has ever put one back the same way it came out exactly. You will probably be installing new fibers anyway so the exact position of the fiber plates will not matter.

HOW TO REPLACE CLUTCH PACK-GEN1 IDK if the Gen2 is exactly the same procedure but i would bet it is aside from different specs for clutch pack height, wear and maybe torque specs.

pull the oil cap first and snap a pic. be careful about the camera angle, that can be decieving. get right above like the pics in the tutorial below.

clutch inspection

If the stack height looks good from the oil filler hole, drain oil full or partial and then remove the clutch cover. You might see the problem right away. If all the pieces aren't there, that's the problem.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/17/2018 @ 5:36 PM *

The alternator is driven from the LHS of the crank. The clutch has no influence on it.

Left Hand Sprocket. Crank. Well there goes that idea. It is very peculiar that both of these cropped up at the same time and as for now, seem unrelated.

I guess I would focus on the charging issue first. That won't go away and it might be a fire hazard--especially if the smell was not the clutch pates as pegscraper advised above that it could not be. Start the bike in N to test and the clutch is out of the equation.

Sorry, I'm not too swift on electricity myself.

I vote for visual inspection of rectifier and wires first just because the rectifier is the only thing in the charging system I ever heard there being a problem with other than a bad battery. Then do the full test with a multimeter. You can write the tutorial on that one! I have never heard of a bad alternator on a 14 but there's a first time for everything.

'Flogging' to you is what?
1. Pop the clutch and flog it?
2. Drag race the clutch and run the lever out with high rpm?
Pop = Not that kind of clutch abuse being rubbed against.
Drag = as in, drag out the lever and blend with high rpm, then yes, heat/friction induced and there is your burned smell.

Oil burnt smell = Remove oil filler cap:
1. Metallic smell... more like a clean smell of cooked oil.
2. Clutch pack smell... a ting of something burning which overrides a cleaner metallic smell.
3. Electrical smell... more like the alternator wires induce an electrical type (heat)smell.... Pick.

11v = Running on the raggedge of losing the 5v's needed to run the computer and bike dies w/11v at the battery.
11v = The dash would show a current draw of 11v, whereas, the battery might show 12v in the static, i.e., key off.

Alt = I'm going to take a guess and say the alternator might be OK so as to get you home, whereas, a dead alt would have the battery run in a 'total loss' kind of condition and stop the engine with that low a voltage to the computer. How old is the battery?
Battery = I need to charge the battery back to 12.8v, start the bike, watch the dash read 14v+ and then this tells me the alt is putting out >>> It's the battery <<<.

Battery = I need to charge the battery back to 12.8v, start the bike, watch the dash read 14v+ and then this tells me the alt is putting out >>> It's the battery <<<.

My battery might read slightly lower than a perfect 14v right after I fully charge it on the charger but after a few rides, it will go to 14v and stay there as long as the motor runs at riding rpm. Idle, it might drop to 13.9. Let it sit a couple days, it will be 12.5~13v but it comes up to 14 when the bike is ridden.

3. Electrical smell... more like the alternator wires induce an electrical type (heat)smell.... Pick.

I think your 6 year old OEM battery was good to you for getting you home before it died. Charge and check like Hub said but you can't ride it with the clutch malfunctioning. Try holding the throttle open a crack for several seconds to see if the voltage goes up = alternator working. I think the voltage may drop back as soon as you let off the throttle. If it doesn't go up when you increas rpm a couple thousand and drops severely (maybe below 11.9v and doesn't come back up) as the engine idles, then probably a bad alternator.

I'm betting battery. 6 years is a lot longer than most last but with only 14,000 miles, that is very possible my busa has the original battery after 8 years and 11,ooo miles. knock on wood.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/17/2018 @ 8:42 PM *

If that's the original battery then I'd say it's played out too. That's about average age for a batt these days. The smell came from where? Sulfur smell? Alternating current travels both ways. Resistance at the battery is still the AC returning to a coil winding and can heat the plastic coating around the wire, melts into the coiled wire(s) it lays next to; and now touches each other. This no longer sends a constant pulse of E thru the single yellow wire(s).

If there are 3 yellows, the crank spins and all 3 send output, and it looks like this...000000000.
If one wire drops out and the other two are fine, it looks something like this...00_00_00_00_.

See the inconsistency of the output? It's no longer 'balanced.' Therefore, a single coiled bank is burnt out and say there is a smell of plastic burning. At the air vents of an electric drill,vacuum,food processor, this is where you'd get a sense of smell... electrically.

I kind of agree with piken and something losing 5v's worth is popping up. I'd guess the gear position sensor if I think an electrical gremlin. A cooked clutch has a nose crunching smell to it, you'd almost want to vomit. Bad gas itches the throat. Heat cycled oil is the only smell that is tolerant off of one of these puppies.

So recap wise:
11v = Not the volt/reg or the battery would boil its water and you'd smell sulfur.
11v = The output to get home says to me the alt yellow wires were pulsing out the volts to get it home.
11v = Sure sounds like the battery is not holding a charge.
Smell = Only the nose knows for sure.

I don't want to get in here when I know little to nothing about it, but out of curiosity did you happen to switch out you clutch lever?

If you changed to an aftermarket lever, that's the clutch problem. I wouldn't expect it to slip unless you were under some heavy load. My Pazzo caused slippage but nothing I could notice doing normal riding. Not too many complaints about Pazzos BTW but mine was clicking from the start.

When I recently purchased the 14r it had CRG-RC2 shorty lever and they work great. The seller also included a set of China knock-off's (I think) that are marked "H-88". Wanted to setup both the 06' 14 and 12' 14r as close as practical to each other I decide to put these knock-off's on the 06'.

When I installed them, I had to fuss with them just a bit. As I learned, if you replace your levers and need to fuss with them, they probably aren't going to work well. First short ride, as few days later, about 80 miles, seemed fine although there reach adjustment was different that the RC-2's. As it turned out, easy riding from my place, on the street, in traffic, was fine. When I got on a back road and lite things up, the clutch started slipping and got progressively worse. I managed to limp back home, switched the levers out and all was good again.

It just doesn't take much difference to make a difference. If we have to press in on the clutch plunger any little amount to get the pivot bolt in, the lever is constantly applying clutch release, which I suppose I didn't notice until the clutch heated up and I put some torque on it.

Anyway, maybe these levers will work for someone else on another bike. If anyone wants them, pay for the shipping and they are yours!

'Clutch slipping'...issue 1.Need more info."started 'suddenly'.'Flogging'...ambient temps and engine temps?

Voltage low...#2 issue.Replace battery that's showing it's failing.

2 issues...coincidental...not connected.IMO.Things like having 'two' seperate issues at virtually the same time...is not uncommon.With neither being a cause and effect thing.

If you're worried about the clutch..It's VERY easy to open up the side cover and pull the basket out and examine.VERY easy.You could do this.Just go by the manual...Just for the heck of it...look in your reservoir.Are there any pieces of black material in there at the bottom?Silt?Anything.This I would check FIRST.And how old is your clutch fluid?This would be second....The suggestion of smelling the case oil...good.You will smell a burnt odor if the plates are really starting to cook.

https://www.rcsperformanceonline.com/Kawasaki_OEM_Clutch_Steels_and_Fibers_p/kawasaki%20clutch%20kits.htm

...I I can do it,you can do it.Now I'm not sure whether you can gently slide the basket with fibers out before removing the inner nut there.If not,remove it just like brock did.It should then slide out.Don't take the plates out completely when the basket is removed.Only check a few...and keep them situated exactly as they are in there.You only need to look at their surfaces.Not take them out all the way.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/19/2018 @ 1:03 PM *

The seller also included a set of China knock-off's (I think) that are marked "H-88".

My Chinazzo does not have any number cut in it.

If we have to press in on the clutch plunger any little amount to get the pivot bolt in, the lever is constantly applying clutch release, which I suppose I didn't notice until the clutch heated up and I put some torque on it.

I see what the trouble is. The bushing seems to be placed about 5/32" too close to the MC. I can see no reason that they needed to drill the bushing hole there. There is enough metal all around to place it where it should be. The result of the mispositioned bushing is:

1) The MC pushrod rests about halfway over the edge of the hole in the bushing that the pushrod is supposed to seat inside of. The butt end of the pushrod presses against the outer edge of the hole instead of dropping into it.

2) Because the pushrod rests halfway over the edge of the bushing hole, the other half of the butt end of the pushrod rests against the aluminum yoke (the part that goes in the perch) of the lever that surrounds the bushing.

3) The pushrod does not go to the bottom of the hole in the bushing where it belongs That is why the pushrod must be pressed into the master cylinder in order to line up the pivot hole in the lever with e pivot hole in the perch. The pushrod does not have full travel.

3) The bushing is rotated sideways severely because the pushrod rests on its edge rather than at its center. When the lever gets pulled, the opposite edge of the hole in the bushing contacts the side of the pushrod. The pushrod levers the bushing around and now the hole lines up with the butt end of the pushrod. The pushrod snaps into the hole under considerable force from the partially compressed master cylinder.

4) Contact between the side of the pushrod and the sharp edge of the bushing hole causes a groove to wear around the pushrod. Undoubtedly, there is corresponding wear to the edge of the hole in the bushing. Contact between the butt end of the pushrod and the aluminum yoke causes a great deal of wear to the yoke. The pushrod literally reams its own hole in the yoke for half of the pushrod's butt end because half of the butt end rests against the yoke.

5) A great deal of dust is created by all this wearing of metal and the bushing freezes. When the bushing can no longer turn, the pushrod stays in it as it does when the clutch lever is pulled. The pushrod is compressing the MC piston even when the lever is released. If you pull the lever forward, it might snap back to full throw. I remember this happening a couple times.

I was just about to order another Pazzo from Motomummy. Looking at my clutch lever after soaking the bushing in WD-40 and freeing it up, I see all the telltale wear marks and I remember the symptoms. It all seems to add up to Pazzos don't work right. I have no explanation as to why some ZX-14 owners thing they are great. All our bikes have the same lever. It might help if you made the pushrod shorter or the bushing hole deeper. Is it possible some of us have a MC piston that extends farther than normal?

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/19/2018 @ 6:00 PM *

I wouldn't consider removing the clutch hub or basket an easy or super safe job. It probably is easier and safer if you use an electric impact wrench. If you're just inspecting plates, there's no need to take the hub or basket out. If you took the hub out with the plates in, you'd never get it back in that way. All the fibers interlock with the basket and they will not match up. there's about a zero % chance they would be back in the right position to slide into the fingers of the basket even if you didn't touch them after removing them with the hub. A clutch pack weighs about 7 or eight lbs. hub, maybe 3. That's a lot of heavy greasy weight to be trying to line up to the splines which BTW would be best if you assembled to same splines in hub as they came out. There I go again on my long windedness.

The cover is easy to remove. The pressure plate and springs easy. Then take out one plate at a time. You'd need to do that to look at both sides regardless of whether you took the hub out or not.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/19/2018 @ 6:14 PM *

"Then take out one plate at a time"...yep...that's kinda what I was saying.Get some separation between em and get a flashlight to look in there.When I removed my 07's clutch basket,I didn't have any problem pulling the whole thing out and keeping the plates in place.I was just very careful handling it.And I marked a line across the outer edge of the plates in there just to be sure.Straight across from outermost to innermost(and the edge of the basket itself).

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/19/2018 @ 7:37 PM *

sorry for going on at length and off topic but this Pazzo problem has had me bugged for years.

Check the other threads. I'm on this like flies on shite. Grn? you have a problem with Pazzo on your 14?

http://zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=87B2665D-1372-66AE-3B74476DDC8B3B01&page=1

When I removed my 07's clutch basket,I didn't have any problem pulling the whole thing out and keeping the plates in place.I was just very careful handling it.And I marked a line across the outer edge of the plates in there just to be sure.Straight across from outermost to innermost(and the edge of the basket itself).

I call that the hub. The smaller inner cylinder ? That locks with the steels by splines so they would stay in place. The fibers do not lock with the hub at all, they lock with the outer cylinder. They might stay in place from oil seal stick between plates -maybe but if you start separating and looking, that would be like winning the lottery if the fibers went back into the outer cylinder.

The basket is what I call the larger outer cylinder. It locks with the fibers by the fingers.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/19/2018 @ 7:59 PM *

No...I never did.But I got tired of the smaller lever.so I switched back to stock.Yeah,the basket with the plates in it.The whole deal.Then I flipped it over and lifted the aluminum basket off.The plates all just sat there.That's when I was installing the Evo star deal.

I think that piston definitely needs to be in line with the lever force surface.Having it cocked is asking for trouble IMO.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/19/2018 @ 11:37 PM *

sheeze!! you lifted the whole thing out in one piece! I guess it could work and the whole thing would fit back together as long as the tongues on the fiber plates were all lined up. Then heft that sucker back in and slide that big bearing and sleeve down the middle. You must be strong, Grn! That's for the gym.

Nah...it wasn't a big deal.

I wonder what happened to suedez? We must have scared him off.

ZX Bros:
Sorry for the tardy response. Got a bit else going on and getting senile at the same time (hit 58 this month). Thanks for all the great info and responses - you dudes are great. I've got a battery ordered online and an electrical engineer friend a couple doors down who's going to check the charging system once I get the new battery in place.

I've always babied my clutches. Been riding over 40 years, around 200,000 miles and have never had a clutch problem (see bike list below). My standard "flogging" technique is to let the clutch completely out and nurse her up to around 30mph, point the girl carefully then let it rip until I usually quit about 1/2 way through 4th. The clutch lever is stock.

Grn 14 - no pieces of material in the bottom of the reservoir. Clutch fluids approaching 2 years and beginning the yellow twinge so that's the next thing I need to do. The rest of the maintenance is spot-on. Ambient temps were 70s and the fluid temps were 160s. Tires 39 PSI. This thing was running so weird though I think (hope) that although I've been riding a long time, I just don't have much experience with traction control, especially one malfunctioning due to voltage problems. My sense of smell sucks too.

I will keep you guys posted once I figure this out, and apologize again for the tardy response.

I watched most of the Brock "clutch mod kit installation" video. We have an expression for this sort of activity in the fighter pilot world - it's called "like a pig staring at a wrist watch" :)

Useless?

"Useless as tits on a nun." That's an expression from the Yooper world.