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Thread: To TRE or not to TRE ?

Created on: 05/30/09 06:11 PM

Replies: 17

Sharkey


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Grass Valley, CA

Joined: 04/30/09

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To TRE or not to TRE ?
05/30/09 6:11 PM

In my usual compulsive and bass akwards manner, I ordered an Ivans TRE 008 for my '08 14. Then I came across an old article, about the then new 2008 model ZX14, from MotorCyclist magazine.
"What Kawasaki did was greatly improve low-end and midrange power, something that was decidedly lacking on the previous generation ZX-14. For whatever reason (fear of liability lawsuits?), power output on the old bike was significantly restricted at lower revs in lower gears. Adding a simple Ivan's Timing Retard Eliminator ($70 from www.ivansperfor manceproducts.com) to the '06 ZX-14 would produce a 13-bhp gain at 4000 rpm. Some tuners would even remove the secondary throttle butterflies (the opening of which was delayed at lower rpm by the ECu) for even more low-end power gains.
It appears that Kawasaki made similar changes as part of the '08 revision. Though these aren't the sorts of things manufacturers' reps openly comment on, we've heard off the record that the secondary throttle plates open more quickly on the '08 bike, and the press kit does mention a mysterious new Digital Timing Advance. These changes, along with improved intake porting and new, finer-atomizing fuel injectors with an increased lateral spray angle, together make the '08 model quicker and faster than before."

Has anyone out there put a TRE on their '08 model and did it make a significant difference? Right now I'm leaning twoards returning the TRE when it arrives.



008 ZX14R Ninja ... Midnight saphire blue with custom lightning bolt paint job, Kenny Rodgers KRTuned mufflers, Corbin custom seat, Marchesini wheels, Dunlop Qualifiers, Dyno Jet PCIII, custom FAICS map, Dyno Jet Ignition Module, K&N Air Filter, Supersprox 44 tooth sprocket, Zephyr 16 front sprocket, EK chain, TRE008, MRA windscreen, Race Railz frame sliders, Sato Racing axle sliders, ST Machine brake & clutch levers, Engine Ice coolant, Muzzy aluminum fan, ceramic coated headers and midpipes (cat removed), Vortex Rear Sets , Pro Comp Stearing Damper, Pro Grip Gel handgrips, Gen Mar clip on risers, Dowco tank bag, and a Rumble fender eliminator.
Removed GPS.

2005 Harley Davidson Dyna Low Rider, 1442 CI fuel injected, 65 HP, lots of chrome with 24K gold overlay detailing. Sure is pretty!

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13719

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
05/31/09 6:25 AM

Has anyone out there put a TRE on their '08 model and did it make a significant difference? Right now I'm leaning towards returning the TRE when it arrives.

You read right, Sharkey. At the GPS, there are two defaults you can exploit. The one [tre] you are thinking to use will cause a limp mode. You may think you feel some grunt, but it might sign off at the higher rpms but open the subthrottles sooner.

The '08 is just about subless as far as a low end lag or hesitation to move quick. The '06 was and is one fast bike. So, the factory was smart to leave the subs lag with this type of performance which as you know is the world's most powerful and it wasn't that powerful if everyone was pulling their 'flies' to bring the '08 response back to some sort of safe riding in any gear.

If you owned an '06, it was like riding a moped at full tilt on the bottom. She was just smooth and linear slow, moving up in speed to the world's fastest. This is where more early model 14 owners were really upset with the low grandma reaction at the throttle.

Kawi listened and the following revision is what you are riding. The bike receives a constant tweak design wise as you were pointing out for a more refined engine family. Subtle improvements that make them better than the previous year, most times.

Now, we are up to your bike and this tre mod. What you have been reading is correct. The tre will more limp the performance. Yes, it will follow the limp mode in the shop manual and point out that you are safe to ride the bike, because they detuned what needs to be a complete un-interrupted analog system.

So, yes, you will feel a change as if to follow what the factory wrote the sub to do when the analog is out of the loop say. So, say you can exploit the other wire not to raise the subs but can limp the GPS another way. Because the gear and sub work as a unit together, either one can fail or lose a connection and set the limp.

Basically, if install this tre on your bike, you will lag the subs where they do not open, you are worse off than an '06 throttle response because the subs stay closed basically. That is why the units take on two numbers for the GPS. One lags the sub, so you remove the flies, which in your case you do not need to remove the subs. You do not use that tre with the sub plates in. So, you COULD return the unit for that one event that the subs rise and use the other one.

Again, Ivan will just move a wire in the clip, call it another name and this exploits either wire like I said. So, you will hold the same unit from Ivan but the wire in the clip will be switched. You could do the same by switching the wire on the GPS side and have the other tre... Using this as one of 3 wire variables that will cause the same effect. Kind of easier for you to follow on wire if one wire can cause the limp to lag at the bottom or cause the limp to lag at the top.

Either way, you set the bike in limp... What the @$^%* are you thinking? If you had this on the fly like you could toggle back and forth, you can feel the lag set in and then disappear back to performance. The Busa had the same effect back when that bike first came out in 1999. So, for 10 years, Ivan has been putting you in limp mode for $70.

I keep repeating what this does, but the public still goes out and limps their ride. One day, I was full tilt tre'd and rode thru a bunch of H-D rides on PCH. On the way back, I undid the limp to feel the difference. Yes, I nailed the other two H-D riders seeing me come up fast on them as I took care of the others in the back. So the lead waved me on and I limped thru a sweeper.

But, on the way back, I could tell that limp would have lagged me out of the corner with that limp effect, where I was in thought both reading the tail light lens and how happy I was to be out of limp to rattle this driver that had on right foot. Bottom line..... Stay Stock? Your call.



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Sharkey


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Grass Valley, CA

Joined: 04/30/09

Posts: 465

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
05/31/09 1:50 PM

Yo, thanks Hub. I had a feeling it was good old capitalism in action. I don't drag strip so I'm still the fastest grandpa around here. You just put me in the mode go go out and smoke some cruisers. Later dude!



008 ZX14R Ninja ... Midnight saphire blue with custom lightning bolt paint job, Kenny Rodgers KRTuned mufflers, Corbin custom seat, Marchesini wheels, Dunlop Qualifiers, Dyno Jet PCIII, custom FAICS map, Dyno Jet Ignition Module, K&N Air Filter, Supersprox 44 tooth sprocket, Zephyr 16 front sprocket, EK chain, TRE008, MRA windscreen, Race Railz frame sliders, Sato Racing axle sliders, ST Machine brake & clutch levers, Engine Ice coolant, Muzzy aluminum fan, ceramic coated headers and midpipes (cat removed), Vortex Rear Sets , Pro Comp Stearing Damper, Pro Grip Gel handgrips, Gen Mar clip on risers, Dowco tank bag, and a Rumble fender eliminator.
Removed GPS.

2005 Harley Davidson Dyna Low Rider, 1442 CI fuel injected, 65 HP, lots of chrome with 24K gold overlay detailing. Sure is pretty!

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kaibosh



Joined: 04/12/09

Posts: 70

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
06/01/09 3:02 AM

I can tell you this much - on my '08 I put on a full exhaust (TiForce) and a PC-III, and pulled the flies. From everything I read on the subject I was very much expecting an annoying backfire issue when hitting the 3500rpm decel line... I can assure you in my case it is a NON ISSUE. I have heard it maybe half a dozen times and when I do it is a happy little gurgle that in no way sounds alarming or sharp. Not sure if some people have a much bigger issue because of mapping or specific pipes, or what, but in my case I am very happy with the way things are.

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13719

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
06/01/09 10:27 AM

Yeah Sharkey, with kabosh on the piggy set, it can wash out most of the pop. So, if you took that $70 tre money, placed it toward a piggy... You would not be out $70 with a band-aid fix, but at all rpm ranges with the pig set in play can you haul without being in limp mode the tre sets you in.



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Sharkey


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Location:

Grass Valley, CA

Joined: 04/30/09

Posts: 465

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
06/02/09 7:18 PM

Hub,
Don't know what a piggy is...
I'm looking at an old PC3 from an '06. It's cheap at $150. I figure I can put a new map on it and it should work. I'm mostly wanting to change the rich mix factory settings on my '08. Waddeya think?


* Last updated by: Sharkey on 6/2/2009 @ 7:21 PM *



008 ZX14R Ninja ... Midnight saphire blue with custom lightning bolt paint job, Kenny Rodgers KRTuned mufflers, Corbin custom seat, Marchesini wheels, Dunlop Qualifiers, Dyno Jet PCIII, custom FAICS map, Dyno Jet Ignition Module, K&N Air Filter, Supersprox 44 tooth sprocket, Zephyr 16 front sprocket, EK chain, TRE008, MRA windscreen, Race Railz frame sliders, Sato Racing axle sliders, ST Machine brake & clutch levers, Engine Ice coolant, Muzzy aluminum fan, ceramic coated headers and midpipes (cat removed), Vortex Rear Sets , Pro Comp Stearing Damper, Pro Grip Gel handgrips, Gen Mar clip on risers, Dowco tank bag, and a Rumble fender eliminator.
Removed GPS.

2005 Harley Davidson Dyna Low Rider, 1442 CI fuel injected, 65 HP, lots of chrome with 24K gold overlay detailing. Sure is pretty!

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kaibosh



Joined: 04/12/09

Posts: 70

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
06/03/09 2:40 AM

'Supposedly' you need the new PC-III for the gen 2 bikes. It is likely horseshit but I am not sure of anyone proving that it works. Then again, people were using ZX-10 boxes for a little while with great success, so...

I got mine off Ebay, was impressed with the deal. I would have gone for a PC-III/pipe combo from one of the big boys just to get the map, but I already had a smoking deal on a full TiForce from dubious. (which, by the way, is so ridiculously quiet that you can't really even hear it while on the bike, which I have learned to appreciate greatly!)

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Sharkey


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Location:

Grass Valley, CA

Joined: 04/30/09

Posts: 465

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
06/03/09 12:02 PM

The seller was able to load an '08 map with SO/s onto the unit before mailing it. So we'll see what happens.



008 ZX14R Ninja ... Midnight saphire blue with custom lightning bolt paint job, Kenny Rodgers KRTuned mufflers, Corbin custom seat, Marchesini wheels, Dunlop Qualifiers, Dyno Jet PCIII, custom FAICS map, Dyno Jet Ignition Module, K&N Air Filter, Supersprox 44 tooth sprocket, Zephyr 16 front sprocket, EK chain, TRE008, MRA windscreen, Race Railz frame sliders, Sato Racing axle sliders, ST Machine brake & clutch levers, Engine Ice coolant, Muzzy aluminum fan, ceramic coated headers and midpipes (cat removed), Vortex Rear Sets , Pro Comp Stearing Damper, Pro Grip Gel handgrips, Gen Mar clip on risers, Dowco tank bag, and a Rumble fender eliminator.
Removed GPS.

2005 Harley Davidson Dyna Low Rider, 1442 CI fuel injected, 65 HP, lots of chrome with 24K gold overlay detailing. Sure is pretty!

Link | Top | Bottom

Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13719

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
06/03/09 5:38 PM

Sharkey, I think your seller might be right. If that is old software from the start, then it should last till [and up to, I am going to guess] to the end of the PCV. Where now the V uses a new grid look?

Because, if Dogo showed how the V plots the grid, as in the stoic? Would this not be trying to guess what is a 20 and a 15 as in, what does 20 represent in the stoic?

In other words, can you place the same number on the grid and 20 represents 13:1 for that grid spot? I could see that working too. But you would have to decode or recognize your two numbers to represent the same thing as you hand fill a map.

Say, one is drag and drop, [for the old pc3's] the other [new v] is compatible if you long hand code, as in all the brackets and forward slashes do it by hand each grid. Something like that I could see working in theory.

Shark, How can I say this. I like it lean, crispy, ragged, mean, wicked, and all that covers that adjective that I like it stock.

When you add that piggy [which means a PC or another aftermarket unit that you install for the fuel ratios] it smooths down the ragged. I like it lean, crisp and ragged. The pig sort of takes that away, and comes on more bold and smooth.

If you have that exhaust going on, there is no 02. So, basically who needs a pig if the fuel trim was pre-assigned without the need of a piggy or the 02. I have a more breathable exhaust and she is still rich all stock. I think you don't need a piggy for the mild stuff that is still clogged up with restriction.

If you want an extra kick, the extra smoother engine, then if you want to improve what is just a production engine, yes, you will get a bit more out of the bike with that piggy you bought. Have fun with it. You bought right.


* Last updated by: Hub on 6/3/2009 @ 5:42 PM *



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Sharkey


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Location:

Grass Valley, CA

Joined: 04/30/09

Posts: 465

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
06/03/09 7:36 PM

I'm with you Hub. I like it a little leaner. With the review article saying the 'o8s run a little rich it made me go for some self applied correction. I spent many years tuning carbs. I can just feel my way through that. I like a little back off on downshift. But this is my firsttime messing with FI. I'll try some of your suggestions, the PCIII gives me the access I need. (My ZX6R came to me race tuned and I've never felt the need to tweek it. But after riding the ZX14 for a while the 6 is feeling a little lame. I'm dedicating it to the track. I'll let ya know what works on this in a couple of weeks. The God Damn painter still has my 14. He said he could only work on it on weekends but the 5th weekend is coming up. I don't want to threaten him, cause he does have my bike, but I need to nudge him somehow!
Oh well, take care
Sharkey



008 ZX14R Ninja ... Midnight saphire blue with custom lightning bolt paint job, Kenny Rodgers KRTuned mufflers, Corbin custom seat, Marchesini wheels, Dunlop Qualifiers, Dyno Jet PCIII, custom FAICS map, Dyno Jet Ignition Module, K&N Air Filter, Supersprox 44 tooth sprocket, Zephyr 16 front sprocket, EK chain, TRE008, MRA windscreen, Race Railz frame sliders, Sato Racing axle sliders, ST Machine brake & clutch levers, Engine Ice coolant, Muzzy aluminum fan, ceramic coated headers and midpipes (cat removed), Vortex Rear Sets , Pro Comp Stearing Damper, Pro Grip Gel handgrips, Gen Mar clip on risers, Dowco tank bag, and a Rumble fender eliminator.
Removed GPS.

2005 Harley Davidson Dyna Low Rider, 1442 CI fuel injected, 65 HP, lots of chrome with 24K gold overlay detailing. Sure is pretty!

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kaibosh



Joined: 04/12/09

Posts: 70

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
06/04/09 4:49 AM

I saw an unconfirmed rumour that the gen 2's had a different harness plug. I guess we will find out...

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13719

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
06/04/09 7:59 AM

You heard it from the horse IS mouth. I have physically plugged-in a Gen -1 into a Gen-2 wire harness without moving one wire or mounting position as INN, you are good to sleep on it..... Think Gen-1 is same-same FSM is not going to change the engine family that radical, electrically.

Engine wise, it is a [little different] massaging treatment to the product line.



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DogoZX


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RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
06/04/09 8:00 AM

I saw an unconfirmed rumour that the gen 2's had a different harness plug. I guess we will find out...

Well let's squash that rumor. If the gen 1's and gen 2's have different harnesses ,then I would not be using a PC5 on my gen 1.

Sharkey bought my old PC3. Since the harnesses are the same, and I was able to load a gen 2 map onto it, it has to work on Sharkey's '08...... right? We'll all find out soon enough.


About that TRE, Sharkey. The 008 that you bought won't do sh*t for your gen 2. Well, that's not true, it will stop your gear indicator from working. All that the 008 does is trick the ecu into thinking that the bike is in 6th gear all of the time so that it will open up the secondaries sooner on the gen 1. Your gen 2 already opens the flies sooner without a TRE. The TRE 006a, on the other hand, tricks the ecu into thinking that the bike is in nuetral all of the time. This eliminates the fuel cut out at 3500 on decel, thus eliminating the backfire we all seem to get when we install aftermarket pipes. It does not open the flies sooner. The 006a, therefore, was designed to be used on gen 1's with the secondary butterflies removed. I'm not sure if installing a TRE 006a on a gen 2 would then cause the secondaries to stay closed longer. If the gen 2 had the secondaries removed, however, the 006a would do what it was designed to do.... stop the pop!



"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!” HST

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Sharkey


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Location:

Grass Valley, CA

Joined: 04/30/09

Posts: 465

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
06/04/09 10:30 AM

Hay Dogo,
Yea, I had already decided to return the 008. I'm not into drag racing or in persuit of jacking horsepower just for the sake of more power. I do like the look of the more linear power curve I see from Dynos of PC installation. I don't have many instances of sitting at a light with another bike beside me, like more urban areas. When I do it's usually a Harley and within a couple of seconds they wonder if I was really there.
Sharkey



008 ZX14R Ninja ... Midnight saphire blue with custom lightning bolt paint job, Kenny Rodgers KRTuned mufflers, Corbin custom seat, Marchesini wheels, Dunlop Qualifiers, Dyno Jet PCIII, custom FAICS map, Dyno Jet Ignition Module, K&N Air Filter, Supersprox 44 tooth sprocket, Zephyr 16 front sprocket, EK chain, TRE008, MRA windscreen, Race Railz frame sliders, Sato Racing axle sliders, ST Machine brake & clutch levers, Engine Ice coolant, Muzzy aluminum fan, ceramic coated headers and midpipes (cat removed), Vortex Rear Sets , Pro Comp Stearing Damper, Pro Grip Gel handgrips, Gen Mar clip on risers, Dowco tank bag, and a Rumble fender eliminator.
Removed GPS.

2005 Harley Davidson Dyna Low Rider, 1442 CI fuel injected, 65 HP, lots of chrome with 24K gold overlay detailing. Sure is pretty!

Link | Top | Bottom

Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13719

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
06/04/09 10:53 AM

Well, that's not true, it will stop your gear indicator from working.

Flies INN Gen-1&2 = Limps so bad, you will fly over the front of the bars you thought you needed to tuck forward you see the "N"..
IF
Flies OUT Gen-1&2 = Limp of subthrottle is still in the limp keeping the subs closed. But with the flies removed, you are now in the fuel/ign trim lock of the limp redundant. She is now ride-able caused by this mod is the N locked more on the mid to upper band. [feels like - ???]

Flies IN Gen-1&2 = Limp to the locked (6) read. This moves the flies now, and sets the lower limp in the low-to-mid range. [can't pinpoint that buzz - ??? >Step is missing so I am clueless but ass id test on the seat of the pants <could only talk]

Flies OUT Gen- 1&2 = No subthrottle air gate present. Limp is buzzing. Air is flowing with one plate of instant response of air flow on demand is you are the reaper.



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DogoZX


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RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
06/04/09 12:35 PM

Flies INN Gen-1&2 = Limps so bad, you will fly over the front of the bars you thought you needed to tuck forward you see the "N"..
IF
Flies OUT Gen-1&2 = Limp of subthrottle is still in the limp keeping the subs closed. But with the flies removed, you are now in the fuel/ign trim lock of the limp redundant. She is now ride-able caused by this mod is the N locked more on the mid to upper band. [feels like - ???]

Flies IN Gen-1&2 = Limp to the locked (6) read. This moves the flies now, and sets the lower limp in the low-to-mid range. [can't pinpoint that buzz - ??? >Step is missing so I am clueless but ass id test on the seat of the pants <could only talk]

Flies OUT Gen- 1&2 = No subthrottle air gate present. Limp is buzzing. Air is flowing with one plate of instant response of air flow on demand is you are the reaper.

Hub + TRE = 1 confused dog



"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!” HST

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13719

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
06/04/09 1:41 PM

Toggle switches tell me the story. I am on the fly with the flip of a switch. Remember? Dual hacks?

Who's wire is confusing? < FSM



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newf14



Joined: 03/12/09

Posts: 35

RE: To TRE or not to TRE ?
07/13/09 7:02 PM

I have the TRE-008 and I like it alot, the reason I installed it is because I tryed to remove the flies with no success.

Newf14

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