I bought a new Shorai battery charger a few months back and decided it was time to balance the cells on the original Shorai LFX battery I installed in my Honda CBR1000RR 26 months ago
The battery has been great offering super quick starts over the last two years regardless of how long it sits but lately I noticed a very slight slowing of the cranking speed.

I pulled the seat off the bike, connected the charger and hit the Charge button. I got a bunch of beeps and both Charge and Stoe LEDs started flashing together, four flashes each then a pause then repeat.

On the charger it says both LEDs flashing means battery is below 50% charge state. I leve it on forty five minutes, no change. I check battery open circuit voltage on my voltmeter and it's just below 15 volts. My voltmeter reads a little high so that's about 14.5 volts.

I have a Shorai I'm my ZX-10 R so I put the charger on that one and it switches to steady green in about 1 minute, full charge so it's apparently not a defective charger.
I check open circuit voltage, just a hair over 15 volts, maybe .25 volts higher than the other one.

I 'm wondering if my two year old Shorai in the CBR is dying, if so I'm pretty disappointed. At $150 it is three times as expensive as an AGM battery which last two to three years also.

Now I have probably the oldest Shorai out there as I was one of the first to jump on the bandwagon.

Anyone else seen this on their Shorai when charging?

Shorai's charging manual says that the 4 flashes then a short pause of both the Charge and Store LEDs simultaneously indicates a bad connector, defective charging cable or defective battery and to contact Shorai.

The cable and connectors worked fine on my other Shorai (one month old) in the 10R so it must be either a bad cell or the charge port on the battery has bad internal electronics.

I'm wondering if I should just keep running the battery as long as it cranks the bike, I don't want to spend another $150 so soon.

One added note, Shorai shut down the factory production for a short time to redesign their batteries a few years ago right after I bought mine. It was to address several QC issues, one was the flimsy terminals.

I'll keep you folks posted on how this all turns out, could have got a bad one or possibly waited too long to balance cells. Shorai no where states how often the charger shoul be used to balance the cells, an oversight on their part if critical to achieving the claimed five year plus lifespan.

From what I'm reading after Googling Shorai charging issues, my battery is dying. I'm pretty disappointed, made it just out of warranty and fizzles...figures!

I'm going to go out and crank it and see what happens, voltage is still quite high. I may continue running it just to see how one of these goes down. I know whAt a dying lead acid does but not an LiFEPO4, this is new territory.

Kruz like ya said buddy you were one of the first Guinea pigs pardon the tag mate,so as this being the case aint it probably first New Gen Hic-ups ??? like here in OZZ I bought the first Fuel Injected GPZ1100 B1 that tech caused me to ditch them injectors & microprocessor for Carbs off a GSX1100,& the first Fuel Injected Ford Falcon I had here in the early 1980 was the same it had bugs,my Sons 03 VRX Magna's traction control caused him to lose control after coming off the dirt back on hard surface,ya know what im saying by all these non related quick stories heay Kruz in all new releases it,s rare to be perfect straight off! IMO

* Last updated by: bean07 on 3/9/2013 @ 6:30 PM *

Well she cranked beautifully this evening so I guess I'll just keep running it til it quits. I will call Shorai on Monday and get there take on it. From what I'm reading on the Internet, it's internal cell imbalance. It may turn out it'll keep working for another year or so, we'll see.

Right there Bean mate, I believe I have one of the oldest, if not the oldest Shorai out there. This is uncharted water and could be of use to others who have bought in to the new battery tech. If it dies, I'll buy another though, it's lasted three months longer than the OEM batter so far.

15 volts. My voltmeter reads a little high so that's about 14.5 volts.

And it is cranking slow ????? is this after being parked for months. Just curious. When My first one went down I had nothing.

Romans, my voltmeter was a touch optimistic at 15 volts but probably 14.3 to 14.5 realistically. She cranked really fast this evening. I noticed slightly slower cranking one cold (for us) 40 F morning last week. It was still cranking much quicker than with the OEM lead acid though. No,it seemed perfectly normal tonight and was within a fraction of a volt of the brand new one in my 10R. I don't know if I have an issue or not but the charger throwing that code has me a bit concerned. Maybe it's nothing and no reason to be concerned. I really like these batteries and am slowly converting my fleet over to them. If and when it craps out I'll buy another but am hoping for five years. Shorai's tech department should be able to answers questions.

Both of my lights flashed for a while too. Pretty sure it did that when I first used the charger last year. Don't know if it is a dearth knell but mine was working fine at the end of the season last year.

I think the weight loss is worth a 2 year duty life. I'll still buy more.

Both LED lights flashing alternately means you are below 50% state of charge, when you charge it past 50% then only the green LED flashes, when it goes out you are 100% charged.

Mine is different, both LEDs flash together four times then a pause. This is an error code indicating cell imbalance, check your manual as it gives all this information.

I found a very interesting article on AdVRider on the Shorai and the cell imbalance problem. The article was written by an electronics tech that diagnosed the very problem I am having.

The Shorai he tested had one cell consistently at a state of charge 40% below the other three. This is caused by a charging system with too low a regulated voltage. The stronger cells soak up a charge rapidly and shut off current to the less efficient cells creating voltage imbalance. This eventually destroys the cells and kills the battery.

The cure seems to be frequent balancing using the Shorai charger, he suggests once a month making these batteries not as maintenance free as we thought.

It may be too late for my Shorai, it has never been balanced in over two years.

Romans, my voltmeter was a touch optimistic at 15 volts but probably 14.3 to 14.5 realistically.

#'s still seem to be very good.

It may be too late for my Shorai, it has never been balanced in over two years

I have never performed any maintenance on these batteries. Spring here soon. Testing soon.

I just picked up charger from Scott I will post results here of your same test once it arrives. Click Here

Pics below shows volt reading comparing to Fluke Meter to our dash board Meter readinds. Close but still not 14.3 For me this was the beginning of the end. Pretty sure Auto Tune 02 sensor played a role.

* Last updated by: Romans on 3/10/2013 @ 6:02 AM *

Yep, I found Shorai's voltage vs charge state chart and 100% charge = 14.34 volts so I'm going to assume that's what I have on my brand new Shorai in the 10R even though my El Cheapo Radio Shack VOM is saying 15 Volts.

The significant thing is that the two year old one is about .25 V less and that's significant, could mean it's headed downhill.

Those Voltage readings you posted are very low for a fully charged Shorai. Those are for the Shorai right? You mentioned another lithium ion battery in the past, a Ballistic if I remember.

So how long after you saw those readings did the battery die?

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=790532

If you can wade through all the tech talk, the following thread is worth reading, especially the part about cell balancing on a Shorai.

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=770364

* Last updated by: Kruz on 3/10/2013 @ 7:21 AM *

Interesting topic. Electrical issues can be difficult to figure out.
Based on what you said, "very slight slowing" of the cranking speed, I wouldn't let that bother me. It IS 2+ years old. I know we're all different in how we look at things.
You said Shorai made changes and you also may have waited too long to balance the cells. Obviously, any improvements/changes made could be related to your issue. As for waiting too long to balance, there must be a schedule and does it vary with certain conditions?
I wouldn't worry about it. Balance the cells. It's going to do what it's going to do regardless. Wish I could offer tech advice. If it's related to inferior design then there's nothing you can do about it. If it DOES stop cranking the bike adequately, then it's decision time.
I've been interested in the Shorai, but skeptical about long term reliability. I know new technology is great, but when a battery is so much lighter and smaller compared to the stock unit, I have to be skeptical. I'm surprised my stock battery still works well. It's over 5 years old (Dec.'07), plus whatever time the bike was in the crate before that. No doubt the cranking has slowed but it starts, no problem. I haven't ridden the bike near as much as I should (12K miles), which generally shortens ANY battery's life, and it went 4 months without starting when I had my accident. Besides that, I've often gone a week or little longer between rides. It doesn't get real cold here in So Cal, maybe 28 degrees lowest. Despite all that, it still works fine.
I know some guys really want that less weight, but I don't think I could notice it if I rode two 14's, one with, one without. And I've never heard of "balancing cells" as you mention.
Shorai will have to show me their product is worth the extra maintenance and higher cost. I have way too many maintenance related things already to go and add to the list. I'll probably stick with the stock battery when mine finally needs replacing. I never have to think about it. I don't even have it connected to the Batter Tender Plus I bought long ago. Just haven't gotten around to it since it doesn't seem necessary yet. Once it dies, I'll hook up the BTP with the new battery. I have a BTP hooked up to my 33 year old GS 1000 with a basic sealed Yuasa battery. Same thing...don't have to think about it other than to disconnect it before a ride.

Those Voltage readings you posted are very low for a fully charged Shorai. Those are for the Shorai right?

Yes Shorai.

So how long after you saw those readings did the battery die?

Kruz, When I started to test the End was already fast approaching. I'm guessing a month at best.

My Gut feeling is these batteries Can Not Be Run Down ever. If you do ??????? voltage drop first sign of impending doom.

Kruz - My charger did the same thing on my Shorai in my ZX10 that got fried by the Voltage Regulator going bad on that bike. When I contacted Shorai, one of the things that they asked me was for info off of the charger, from that they told me that the charger I had contained an "old" firmware and they had me send it in with the battery and reprogrammed it. Not sure if this may be your only problem... old firmware.

KAK, the maintenance is only plugging the charger into the battery pushing a button then letting it do it's thing. If you plug the "pigtail" that they give you up to the battery when you install if and route it to the outside of the bike, then you don't even need to disassemble anything to maintain or charge your Shorai (You can see it in the pic, it's the coil hanging down below the black side panel just below the seat). Also, I asked for another pigtail for my second Shorai in the 14 and they send it along for nothing. Not sure about longevity as a bike issue killed my oldest Shorai, which was nearing the end of it's first year in service, but both my bikes sit for long periods, only being started by the wife a couple of times a week while I am away in Afghanistan.

Hope this helps...

Yep Kak, the Shorai charger automatically analyzes and balances the cells to maintain the amp-hour rating or capacity of the battery. With cells in series, the pack takes on the capacity of the weakest cell. In the Shorai you have four cells in series to yield 14.34 V at 100%. If three cells are at 100% and one is at, let's say, 40% then the battery has 40% of it's capacity. A 20 amp-hour pack would have only 8 amp-hour effective capacity, might not start your bike even though it came right off the charger.

This is an issue with the LiFePO4 cells, they are very sensitive to charging and need frequent balancing apparently when used with a constant potential voltage regulator we have on our bikes.

This was a concern I had when I first jumped into these batteries way back. They work great in a labaratory where you can precisely control the charge cycle and this is what the Shorai charger does. The charge port charges each cell individually to the same potential (Voltage) eliminating cell imbalances.

How can you tell if you have imbalanced cells? Open circuit voltage after fully charging the pack. My two year old pack is showing about .2 volts below a fully charged new one so I've lost maybe 10% of my capacity in two years.

The bad part is my new Shorai charger will not balance the cells, probably beyond the programmed limits set by Shorai hence the error code. If a battery becomes imbalanced, it's like having four oxen pulling a cart and one has a broken leg, can't pull it's share of the load, the other three will quickly fail from fatigue. Crude analogy but you get the picture.

On the other hand it might just be I need the updated software Big Willie was talking about.

It will be interesting to see how mine performs over time. We live in the same area. So the conditions our batteries are subjected to are about the same. I do put a lot more miles on mine but it shouldn't matter. One thing that has been weird with mine is that it will crank slow after it has been in storage mode for a while. The bike meter also display low voltage!!!!
I read somewhere that Shorai recommends the 21 for the ZX-14 because of reliability issues down the line.

Ditto on the 21 amp-hour Drag, the gist of that link I posted above is that the larger the battery capacity, the easier it is for the charging system on our bikes to keep your cells in balance. I'm thinking I have a couple more months on this battery in my CBR before it rolls over and plays dead. I'm looking forward to hear what Shorai's tech department has to say tomorrow.

Good article on balancing LiFePO4 cells, this is supposedly what the Shorai charger does automatically.

http://minibms.mybigcommerce.com/template/files/How%20to%20perform%20initial%20LiFePo4%20battery%20pack%20balancing%20using%20MiniBMS.pdf

Now my question is if cell balance is this critical to achieving anything near the claimed life of these batteries, why doesn't this information appear in Shorai literature anywhere? They "recommend" use of the Shorai charger for maximum battery life but go on to say you can use a normal lead-acid type charger without desulfate mode.

I'm starting to think that these batteries are not going to achieve anything like the claimed life expectancy under real world conditions.

The problem is the weaker cells never fully charge and then are driven into a very low state of charge during a high rate discharge cycle when starting the bike. Low cell voltage is a big no-no on LiFePO4 cells and drastically shortens their life span.

I have now converted three of my machines over to Shorais, $620 invested so far including the charger. I could have bought about 10 lead acid AGM batteries for that price!

The weight savings part of the equation is objective, it's real, quantifiable and very useful but I'm stopping here for now and leaving L-As in the other two bikes until I see how this all plays out.

Again, take what the manufacturer says with a grain of salt. As someone who designs and tests lithium-ion cells, I can tell you that it is possible to charge both LiFePO4 and LiMn2O4 cells in series strings without balancing leads. BUT, the cells need to be very high quality and care should be taken to rebalance them on a regular basis. Even then, it is almost certain that at least one cell in the string is going to take a beating and age faster than the rest. Even the DeWalt powertool packs with A123 cells have active balancing.

Here's a direct quote from a guy who designs these things for a living. There is no active cell balancing on a Shorai used with our constant potential charging systems. The BMS port on the Shorai is the only way to balance the cells and this must be done periodically or these batteries will die prematurely as mine is doing. As Bean aptly put it, I was the first Guinea Pig to try these things.

My recommendation, if you don't already have the Shorai charger, get one and balance the pack and then do it periodically after that. If not, these are two to three year batteries...period...forget all the hype about long life.

Secondly, Shorai knows this and should have warned us that without periodic cell balancing these things are not going to last any longer than a typical L-A.

This information is not in their FAQ or anywhere else on their site but should be.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 3/10/2013 @ 5:57 PM *

contained an "old" firmware and they had me send it in

Ahhhhh, killing me. ok, so how do I plug in to update ? I know , we can't , boooo

On the other hand it might just be I need the updated software Big Willie was talking about.

I'm looking forward to hear what Shorai's tech department has to say tomorrow.

Kruz, if your talking to theses guys can you ask about serial #'s in regards to when this update came into play. The one I just purchased may also need it. Cheers.

Will do Romans, I'm spouting off a bit here but feel like Shorai is not being completely forthright with us on maintaining what is turning out to be an expensive investment. I hope my issue is a charger firmware problem but doubt it as I just bought it in January and the Voltmeter doesn't lie, mines dropping volts just like yours did right before it crashed.

I don't think anything's wrong...if you don't run the bike every several days....you're going to get a drop in voltage...they mention that.Our bikes are pulling volts from the electrics.Mine says...'store mode' for a sitting bike...sitting more than just two days or so.If the bike doesn't have any peripheral electrics...then it's not as critical.Mine cranked low...I mentioned that in another post...when my yellow engine light came on and didn't go out till I rode a short ways then restarted.And the other day...with the charger hooked up for the 'several days' they mention...it fired great and no yellow lamp....I think the batteries are just fine.I wouldn't give up on it just yet.Or think it's failing.I don't think it is.Keep er on the store mode...no prob.Riding will charge her up right quick.It gets very cold here....so my charger is definitely doing it's job.

"mines dropping volts"...how often are you riding with it?OR charging it?The 'store mode' IS the float mode on any other tender.It does it's balancing thing while in store mode.I rode the other day....after I got home...I waited about an hour or so to plug in my charger...cause I won't be riding for a few.It took appprox 2-3 minutes of green light charge...then it went solid green.I then put her in store mode.But in those two hours or so...it took a charge...so the electrics are pulling juice outta there pretty well....ALL the instrument displays are being stored in the CAN unit and elsewhere...they need to be 'fed' some juice to keep those readings okay.There are several readings that the 14R has that the previous ones don't.I don't see any problem with any of the power drain.On my 07...I had the shorai...and only a couple of times did I actually hook it up and charge it....so one could say...my 'new' one is defective.It's not.Just more power drain than my 07...that's all it is.I could experiment with it...and see just how long it'll go without discharging.Don't really want to though...no sense in pushing things IMO.Long as it starts when I need it to...and doesn't discharge while riding...I'm cool with it.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 3/10/2013 @ 7:41 PM *

OK Grn, if my Shorai is fine, when I come in from a ride and plug in the BMS charger, it should go flashing green for a minute or two then switch over to steady green indicating it's fully charged. Under these conditions mine is spitting an error code which the manual says is a battery (cell) defect, this battery won't take a charge, just a long string of beeps followed by the four flash sequence of the LED's. Something's wrong with my pack, will find out from Shorai.

Well...okay...if it's doing that...and that indicates a cell issue...okay.Mine beeps if I unplug then replug back in...from the wall plug.IDK what that means...but it will beep.Same as when I hook up to my battery...and just immediately hit the store mode button...it will beep...I think four times...but it doesn't actually stop beeping until I hit my charge button,and she charges up first(solid green).Then my store button...and she's okay...both lamps solid.

"both LEDs flash together four times then a pause"...ya...I think that's what mine does...until that battery is charged(solid green)...then solid(both) after I turn on that store mode deal.

I think I was trying to show with my ride experience and my battery...that even after a several hour ride...and the battery being 'charged' at 14.2+ volts...it still showed a 'not fully charged' battery when I did plug it in and start a charge on it...after sitting a couple of hours.I assume that's normal?Even though my 07's shorai didn't behave that way.I'm not gonna sweat it as long as it maintains a starting charge while riding.OR...cranking volts enough to fire the engine even after sitting some.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 3/10/2013 @ 9:30 PM *