I've been thinking about trying this out some time. I see how it works. You have slot screws that you use to turn the rotor forward or back.

http://www.muzzys.com/ZX14/ZX14_Ignition_Rotor/index.html

Looks like the Gen1 owners have been using this to advance timing 4°-5°. I'm just wondering, what am I doing to the timing when I ADVANCE timing? Is that making the spark happen sooner?

Are you lookin for more bolt ons or something?

Jim from comp CNC said... moving the cams 2 degrees this way or that way has very little effect.

How I understand it, degreeing cams is letting in fuel sooner. Advancing timing would be igniting the fuel sooner.

Seems like one is useless without the other.

Right? ..or wrong?

You may be right, fatsix. I'm not sure this is a mod worth pursuing. Without some data or at least testimonials, I have nothing to go on but guesswork.

Let's make it simple.

I make power or blow the fuel up and it takes time to make that heat expand.
I fire at 10° before top dead center (BTDC) and my flame front should be played out 10° after top dead center (ATDC).

On my exhaust side I want to keep the valve closed and exploit all that push down power to its diminishing returns. So, there is a point where no more power is made, open the valve, lets get the cycle moving sooner. Then, if sooner, I want to cut the exhaust valve short and open it sooner.

So on my exhaust side, look how I can get the cycle to move sooner, skip the diminishing returns and fire the bike sooner than leaving the exhaust remaining closed longer. My shorter opening is for top end, my waiting for all the torque to play out is bottom end grunt. Those are basically the moves of the exhaust cam.

On my intake side, yes, the sooner I open it, the faster the event. So now my fuel fire off has changed. I need to move down in degrees BTDC so the burn starts quicker. I do not want the ignition to be that far advanced (fires way before TDC) or I can literally start the engine backwards.

I have overlap and that is when both valves are open. Here is where our valve tags each other, or a piston dome could tag a valve we move the cam timing out of range. So there are so many degrees within that window before the tagging begins. We have the single cam and look how you have to move that intake and the ex follows. With the double cam, you have a larger option to play between moving the centers away from each other.

So the deal with ignition timing is, how much time do I need BTDC and I know I better fire @ 10° BTDC when at idle. When the engine moves faster, the timing moves down and fires off before TDC at maybe 43° to 50° BTDC so that fuel can be 'flame fronting lower down the cylinder' so that super rpm speed is being fired way before the 10 degrees at idle. The more the rpm, the more the ignition curves in that linear down the cylinder fire off BTDC.

Here comes the ignition, the square wave, the leading edge, the trailing edge of the tone wheel pass. We ready? I make a pass in the OE position I run 0 leading edge to 10° BTDC. When I advance that tone wheel with the Muzzy, look at my leading edge now vs. crank position. That leading edge is going to trigger sooner way before 10 degrees it once was at idle. The cam's sensor is out of phase with the square wave the crank made.

These ride within one another, as if pulling a dixie cup out of another, that's how lined up the waves are to each other. So moving that wave the cup no longer fits into the other cup and that phase has moved, changed the calc at the processor, the truth tables are calc'ing out this number and the ECU is seeing this is out of spec. You get this tony kind of buzz. Crispy bottom end like feel, almost like a limp without a check engine light coming on.

So when you balance these waves and not move the cup so the edge of the cup hits the bottom of the rim, it shifted over so the phase is recognized as a limp and the truth tables calc that out. See if that made any sense?

And if "The Hand" uses a Muzzy to get those numbers? And if he didn't?

I had one on my 07 Rook...definitely could feel some sooner power going on...crisper as well.Set mine at 4 degrees advance(as per Brock).Worthwhile little mod.

Then, if sooner, I want to cut the exhaust valve short and open it sooner.
_____________________________
My shorter opening is for top end, my waiting for all the torque to play out is bottom end grunt.

If the ignition is advanced, the spark happens sooner. The exhaust is opened sooner, skipping on the low end grunt. I was going to ask, "why not ignite the fuel sooner AND open exhaust later thereby increasing hp and still hanging onto torque?"....but I see, hp is more related to making stuff spin fast and free and torque is more about optimizing expansion of gas. You can't have both tq and hp running optimally at the same time.

On my intake side, yes, the sooner I open it, the faster the event. So now my fuel fire off has changed. I need to move down in degrees BTDC so the burn starts quicker.

We have the single cam and look how you have to move that intake and the ex follows. With the double cam, you have a larger option to play between moving the centers away from each other.

So the deal with ignition timing is, how much time do I need BTDC and I know I better fire @ 10° BTDC when at idle. When the engine moves faster, the timing moves down and fires off before TDC at maybe 43° to 50° BTDC so that fuel can be 'flame fronting lower down the cylinder' so that super rpm speed is being fired way before the 10 degrees at idle. The more the rpm, the more the ignition curves in that linear down the cylinder fire off BTDC.

If the rotor is adjusted +5° (that's what they are recommending for the Muzzy adjustable rotor) that may be way to advanced for idle yet the bike still idles with a Muzzy rotor. If the ECU adjusts the timing for rpm by percentages, say it reverts to 0% at idle. 0% of +5° is 0°. No change, idle is set with stock timing even with the Muzzy adjusted to +5°. Then at 9000 rpm, the ECU advances timing 90%. 90% of +5 is +4.5°. At 10500 rpm the ECU advances timing 100%. Now you have your full +5° ignition timing and the cylinder is firing at maybe a total of 53° BTDC with the muzzy in there instead of the stock rotor.

Do you suppose that's how it works, or does the ECU read the timing and adjust by how ever many degrees it takes to restore timing to what the ECU is programmed for?

That leading edge is going to trigger sooner way before 10 degrees it once was at idle. The cam's sensor is out of phase with the square wave the crank made...... the truth tables are calc'ing out this number and the ECU is seeing this is out of spec..the phase is recognized as a limp and the truth tables calc that out. See if that made any sense?

And if "The Hand" uses a Muzzy to get those numbers? And if he didn't?

I had one on my 07 Rook...definitely could feel some sooner power going on...crisper as well.Set mine at 4 degrees advance(as per Brock).Worthwhile little mod.

Mechanically speaking, I see just how this thing works. I'd really like to know how / if the ECU interacts/intervenes with it.

And there is a whole load more questions I'm not even asking yet.

Please answer all the questions you can. Lets get this ironed out.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/13/2014 @ 1:07 PM *

You can't have both tq and hp running optimally at the same time.

So, as I suspected, you do indeed need to change the cam degree to open the intake quicker if you want to take advantage of advanced timing (the spark going off sooner).

interesting. I wondered why they went to double OH cams. I suppose that's why.

Do you suppose that's how it works, or does the ECU read the timing and adjust by how ever many degrees it takes to restore timing to what the ECU is programmed for?

I work with so many degrees but you are after that leading and trailing edge. Ok, more like the leading edge as if you lined up that TDC scribe mark on the tone wheel to the split of the case, you want to take a straight edge brass feeler gauge so the magnet does not stick to using a steel feeler. Nothing says you can't line up that leading edge to the magnet's edge using a metal feeler.

Degree wise, do you see how if you did not know where TDC was, how could you line up the leading edge? By using a degree wheel, now you can find or stop at the 10° BTDC, pg. 1-12. Bingo, find the leading edge, we now fine tune with numbers/formula/blueprints. Then, on page 1-13, here are your cam degrees or the blueprints to the opening and closing degrees. Wink-wink, hotrodude.

"The truth tables." The stock ECU program. Do you suppose the ECU makes a correction for advanced timing at the rotor so the truth tables balance out?

If "The Hand" is Muzzy, I'm sure he wants to sell his product.

I had it tucked away in the back of my mind but I want to figure out exactly how this thing works before i go through the hassle of installing and maybe removing. and spending $80 on it.

Mechanically speaking, I see just how this thing works. I'd really like to know how / if the ECU interacts/intervenes with it.

Please answer all the questions you can. Lets get this ironed out.

That advancer is all about a square wave. It's an $80 price of tuition, if you want to look at it that way. Grn has the goods on the seat response.

You mentioned the TRE. That might be a better way to go since it overrides the ECU...or tricks it into not retarding timing. Or how about both a TRE and an adjustable rotor? TRE for low end, Muzzy for top end? Think I'd go BOOM?

Strange thing I saw on Schnitz's site regarding the TRE. It says "The TRE has no effect at full throttle (except ZX-14)." and "The TRE does NOT affect full throttle horsepower on any model (except ZX-14). This has been verified on the dyno as well as on the road under controlled conditions."

Any idea what the effect of the TRE at WOT is on the 14? Good or bad?

So what is the compromise here? Emissions? ?

In that I tend to give Mama Kaw's engineers the benefit of the doubt in any kind of tweaking of the ZX14, I ask why did they put the timing exactly where it is, instead of where Muzzy puts it?

* Last updated by: tooncinator on 8/13/2014 @ 10:13 PM *

Looks like the Gen1 owners have been using this to advance timing 4°-5°. I'm just wondering, what am I doing to the timing when I ADVANCE timing? Is that making the spark happen sooner?

Rook you have given so much time of your self to so many. Let me now give to you. It's My Turn. Free ECU Flash, with all timing maps included. That bottom end hole that all Gen One ZX 14 owners get use to will be gone. With flash You will love it.

I have so much to say about this, but will only go down this road with you AFTER YOU TRY timing done wright. Then you will have a proper based opinion of your own based on before and after. The ride after must speak for itself.

To much Bull these days, let the Bike speak.

Rotor, I loved the bottom, but lost hp up top. ole school now.

In that I tend to give Mama Kaw's engineers the benefit of the doubt in any kind of tweaking of the ZX14, I ask why did they put the timing exactly where it is, instead of where Muzzy puts it?

Only a guess, bad gas. Timing maps are down hill ski sloops. Raise the hill a little and some nipple runs 85 octane the damage they pay. Raise the hill with good fuel she likes it.

Any idea what the effect of the TRE at WOT is on the 14? Good or bad?

Gear grouping only, hurts nothing,,,take flies out same thing.

TRE 006A is neutral fake, flies must be out,,ZERO back fire, but there is something else we can't see,,,,,, UGH !

Free ECU Flash, with all timing maps included. That bottom end hole that all Gen One ZX 14 owners get use to will be gone. With flash You will love it.

I guess it's time to turn the page. I always thought my little modules under the seat were real nifty but I'm starting to see the limitations of them. A module changing a signal to the ECU with the ECU maybe trying to correct it? Just change the ECU! I guess I will still have use for my PC5 and Autotune. You know what this means? Woolich software for Rook one day. I can't just put the bike back together and leave it alone for ever. I'll PM ya about your generous offer. Gotta see exactly what we are going to change. So far, I have just SpeedoHealer (and a Bonneville upgrade that I will prolly be sending to Ebay), PC5 and Autotune.

So what is the compromise here? Emissions? ?
In that I tend to give Mama Kaw's engineers the benefit of the doubt in any kind of tweaking of the ZX14, I ask why did they put the timing exactly where it is, instead of where Muzzy puts it?

Looks like Somefun gained 10 hp with the Muzzy rotor and velocity stacks. He actually lost 4-5 hp until he tuned for the mods (don't know if that was more the timing advance or the stacks). Some other guy on the thread said he has both Muzzy rotor and TRE on his bike.

http://www.zxforums.com/forums/zx-14-forum/28774-muzzy-slotted-timing-advancer-2.html

Thanks everyone for the great info. I think I'm going to go the flash rout here. No guesswork about how th eECU is interacting with the modules if there are NO modules, right? Thanks Hub, for another good schooling. I learn a lot from you. i still have a lot to chew on for years to come.

Oh, this is going to be fun!

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/14/2014 @ 5:18 AM *

@ Romans

@Rook..1st,free hoses..now this. Wohooo!!! I have Romans flash and its dy-no-mite.

Great offer Romes....way to go!

I think the only reason for the Kawi programmed timing retard at low to mid range in gears 1-4 is so that the bike has less power where the gearing is most aggressive. It's a safety feature that you can't shut off..which is why I don't want it!

Timing and What's In The ECU Explained

Rook, Timing is the same is all gears, always was. All reports we were told of timing being retarded in the bottom end gears were lies. The Want to believe was strong, so we did. TRE was born. Yes we could feel something, but that was flies opening sooner, nothing else.

Timing maps from 2006,07 were changed in the 08 to 2011. They were slightly more aggressive from 2600 to 3600 RPM in attempts to fix that bottom end hole we all complained of. Still nothing much. Some of us spent hundreds of hours trying to fix that hole with fueling. I could never get it quite right, only now I know why ugh !

In the present time We now know Kawi uses the secondary throttle plates ONLY to restrict air in gear grouping. Goes as follows 1&2 is one group 3&4 second Group 5&6 having the most aggressive fly opening. This is in bikes 2006 to 2011. This should now give you a clear understanding of what the TRE really does. With today's tech False claims of timing changes go out the window. Yep once again, there is no such thing as Santa Clause booooo.

The 14R is different. We have three timing maps along With High and low hp modes. One would think low power mode pulls timing but the Fact is there is No timing map for low power mode. What we have is One timing map for Full and Low power. Second for our beloved Safety Mode that this bike kicks into when launched to hard. Third is a very aggressive Neutral Map. In Neutral Timing here is pushed up a whopping 10 degrees. So when you see guys revving the piss out of there bikes in Neutral,,,, maybe not the best idea. So why have it? My guess is, this map allows bike to run cooler when idling. In long periods of heavy traffic I go for Neutral. My brain tells me this helps but I have not spent the time to prove this in exact time and temp #'s but it's a safe bet. Testing to prove exactly is needed Hub ?

The 14R has grouping of the throttle plate Maps too but this is Not done in the gear grouping. Rather it's done in the different modes. It's Full power has one fly opening map for all gears 1-6. Low power has one fly opening map for gears 1-6 And last but not least our beloved Safety map, same in gears 1-6.

Hope this info clears up any misunderstanding that some may have due to claims made in the past. Cheers

Great offer Romes....way to go!

You guys have all been here with me from the very beginning. My turn to give back.

Yes we could feel something, but that was flies opening sooner, nothing else.

They were slightly more aggressive... I could never get it quite right, only now I know why ugh !

In the present time We now know Kawi uses the secondary throttle plates ONLY to restrict air in gear grouping.

This should now give you a clear understanding of what the TRE really does.

With today's tech False claims of timing changes go out the window. Yep once again, there is no such thing as Santa Clause booooo.

Remember? I fail, I revert back to natures 60mhz split. I am n-A and D-J once a low to mid or a mid to high fails, the backup takes over. The injector call being 760mmHg or default to said 'backup.' Once santa puts that in your sock, all answers are explained is do not mess with The Penultimate (60mhz/14.7/1 atm/1 atmosphere). The shop manual between the lines is where I read that. Like I said, you have to know a tiny bits of something before that book makes sense. I walk in with my Pen, and ultimately it makes perfect sense designing a processor that is stuck with formula in bi and one number is nature's call.

The 14R is different.

My guess is, this map allows bike to run cooler when idling. In long periods of heavy traffic I go for Neutral. My brain tells me this helps but I have not spent the time to prove this in exact time and temp #'s but it's a safe bet. Testing to prove exactly is needed Hub ?

Hope this info clears up any misunderstanding that some may have due to claims made in the past.

1. I bought that camera to watch the sub shaft.
2. I poked a hole in a cover to watch the ign timing.
3. I had Ivan stimulate the search.
4. I figured out the meaning of analog and digital and how I apply it.
5. I stumbled onto a lockdown that keeps explaining the system.
6. I understand what The Penultimate [lockdown] means in my language, my abstract, gleaned from the code pages in the book.
7. I have this memory of a theme song, and it goes something like, it's how dee tune knee time, it's how tea toot tee time, da-da-da-da-du-waaaa, It's sink or swim me time, it get a fucking line, it's time to wring your neck, here he comes to save the day! It's mighty mouse and a click away. Oh crap this a crappy map I just made!

Oh, here is the bad cell number. I don't have to cry on line for a map...

Romes, are we on the same page? No penultimate, no make sense. Bring the penultimate and it all makes sense. WOT is the penultimate number each time the valve closes? 1 atm. What is the number a turbo pushes to make boost? 14.7 and count boost from there. If this penultimate makes sense, then the other penultimate applies to the ECU. When I read how you explain it, I bring the 1ATMO up against yours/anyone's theory. Convince me or I convince you, someone is right or closer to being right in theory.

I base my theory off the Pen. There is no one to ask short of me trying to get into the propulsion lab down the road some, or head to a high school and hit up some geeks. I'll have to disagree on a few points there, Romes, or my theory is all whack and the shop manual is a lie.

@Rook..1st,free hoses..now this. Wohooo!!! I have Romans flash and its dy-no-mite.

Rook, Timing is the same is all gears, always was. All reports we were told of timing being retarded in the bottom end gears were lies. The Want to believe was strong, so we did. TRE was born. Yes we could feel something, but that was flies opening sooner, nothing else.

Thanks for timing info. This thread might end up being more about timing in general than it is about the Muzzy rotor.

How about the DJ timing advance module? Work? Do you advance timing with your flash?

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/14/2014 @ 11:27 AM *

Explain that chemical reaction I hack the N or 6. Fuel/ign/rpm are tied together. I hack, I moved 3 variables to different maps. My understanding is the 555 timer is always monitoring me at idle to 186mph and if a sensor fails, I am safe at any speed is that backup. That's my understanding of a sensor... You call it a tre, I call it, Pick a sensor.

Hub, that takes us way back to the ole of the 3D. You change the plates you change the fueling. Was never anything to write home about as most of the sound was in the bottom end. Never going to help you win any races as the 100% columns remain un changed in any gear. Most probably why I forgot it.

I do remember some things from your tests, was it not you to prove, go over 5 degrees and bikes see's the out of range and pulls 7 degrees. Limp ? These mechanical tests at the time were your back yard. No one better to speak on the subject. When Ivan got out of the Muzzy advancer and went Digital I followed his lead. That I did love and it was Awesome.

How about the DJ timing advance module? Work? Do you advance timing with your flash?

Yes and yes. If you find the ignition module I have all the maps for you. Promise you love it

Rook I was also using SB6 for timing adjustments,,, sweet what that little box can do

I hacked the PAIR light to shut off, so it's test time.

Do you want to talk about this here ? Fill me in. Resistors pop. Idle control ? what U do ? Any pics ?

Question, If I apply pressure to Manifold Air Pressure sensor do I pull timing ? ECU sees it that I know for sure,,, but what does it do for sure ?? Can't figure this one out. Can't find any info Help.

* Last updated by: Romans on 8/14/2014 @ 12:07 PM *

Yes and yes. If you find the ignition module I have all the maps for you. Promise you love it

Do you keep the ignition module on the bike with the flash or do you just change timing in the ECU and drop the module?

Rook do you already have Module ?

Rook do you already have Module ?

No. But i was planning to do the flash soon. Any benefit with using the ignition module along with the flash? I suppose you could tune/try different timing maps if timing was not flashed to the ECU....same way you can tune with AutoTune and PC5 if fueling is not flashed.

Any benefit with using the ignition module along with the flash?

No benefit per say. You definitely don't want both. Was Just another path that ends up in the same place.

I suppose you could tune/try different timing maps if timing was not flashed to the ECU....same way you can tune with AutoTune and PC5 if fueling is not flashed.

Exactly, more of a hands on approach. Point is more to say you can still make timing changes after the ECU. The Need to dig into the ECU is Not A Must. I was thinking from your question you may already have the Ignition Module. If so I would send you the Maps.

No benefit per say. You definitely don't want both. Was Just another path that ends up in the same place.

more of a hands on approach. Point is more to say you can still make timing changes after the ECU.

So basically, I would just end up finding that the ideal timing map I would come up with for my ignition module was identical to the timing map you flash to the ECU. Not necessarily the case with fueling though, right?

* Last updated by: Rook on 12/5/2014 @ 7:58 AM *