Entropy

Work vs heat
expands vs loses temp

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Order vs. Chaos? Look no further...

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finding the correct opening programming gives the best response at all rpms and all throttle openings

I wonder where the chaos went, when you remove your subs and show me evidence. There is DTT like a mother going on at the processing. Every minute vac pulse off that intake sensor is being D'TT to death before thousands of dumps if not millions of times is how fast is that processor inside? The processor has to keep up, yes? Of course time my timer on the motherboard.

My subs are locked, my AFR turns rich, not leans out. Show me the lean, show me the lag out the hole I run a stock ECU.

.... not just hang them completely open before the engine can use that amount of air.

Bingo! The chaos and penultimate you don't see the mmHg needle slam to 760 on close? I guess not. The needles lie. AFR does not go rich as well... Well? Ever see my vid so I shut up and the needles speak for themselves?

Ivan??? Am I schooling the teacher?
1. Am I lean upon acceleration with my subs locked, yes or no? The needles are asking you this, not me. My reality are those needles.

(causing hesitation under heavy load from too much intake area)

As fast as you can... I mean, do pushups, squeeze a spring in the hand, all that. Now, at idle, snap the throttle open as fast as you can... If that is not heavy load and you made it hez, I'm too scared to run that kind of piston speed before I turn or let the spring snap is closed faster. Or did the exercise shut it down sooner. So I would have to assume in the chaos, if there is lag at that snap off Idle, then there is lag under load of weight? So wasn't the [heavy] air load> swinging the AFRich? Do I explain there was an address made for this weight load of the rider/bike? Or does the eng [load] even know it has weight with all the sensors feeding off crank speed, right?

The last man standing after the 'various' fall out of the loop, method kicks in, yes or no? Come on, Ivan, this is in the book. Why are we not on the same page, I'm fighting 14.7 you say heavy load back to 0.

Having access to just the sub throttle tables isn't enough to properly adjust them either..... There are more things than this that need to be changed to make everything work as it should.

I would think the stepper motor is timed to the tps and crank speed and has zero to do with fueling and has everything to do with the IAP we talk fueling for load.

I'm on a rolling dyno; air temp is outside moving at the nose of the bike. Water temp of the bike, do I have to go thru the sniffer in the muffler? But no, it's not showing you lean but rich. Just the opposite of chaos.

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School is closed now. .....bye bye

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School is closed now. .....bye bye

Thanks it's been nice to have your input on such a controversial topic. It takes balls to take a stance, but that's what differentiates leaders from followers. You are a leader in your industry Ivan.

I understand completely. I think you might be missing a time vs time on the stroke. If say we had one crank throw from ATDC to BDC is the concentration of time. If say that one full stroke is 360° and that starts at 0 and ends at 1000 feet. If say from .5 degrees past is After, then half that full stroke from top to bottom is say at the middle point, the exhaust valve opens and the diminishing returns has ended.

But as the returns were diminishing on the other side of the stroke is the compression and burn occurring, we add spark someplace. So say at half on the BDC to TDC, half is where the intake closes and now the compression begins. In the 'timing' of the spark, we now see the close of the intake and at the half way point from valve closing to TDC, we can set the spark someplace along that travel; before reaching the top and the power keeps going until the diminishing of the compression of the explosion going out; is where that time of the fire occurred + how much was added in the fueling to create more energy from that extra-extra little hit of fuel is a faster time.

So what I think you are missing was the fuel hit and it only was more or less an ignition hit to the fuel. I think you are missing AFR? Extra energy goes limp?> is no energy added or not? I would assume if you change map, the ign is going to calc to balance automatically I would have to assume are the dual math calc hardware pieces [program counter-hi/program counter-lo]. YOu should know this being an engineer is electrical balance or burn up, hello?

None of this has anything to do with "piston feet" traveled. No matter the quality of combustion, in a stock 14R the piston travels 130mm per crank revolution. That doesn't change. The only thing quality of combustion changes is the rate at which the engine can gain rpm. In x gear, for the motorcycle to travel d1 ground distance the piston must travel d2 piston feet. They are locked together in ratios. Doesn't matter if the engine rpm is 10k, or 3k. The piston will have moved d2 feet, the tire will have rotated y times, d1 ground will be covered.

* Last updated by: VicThing on 7/19/2015 @ 1:07 PM *

The only thing quality of combustion changes is the rate at which the engine can gain rpm.

If I removed the air cleaner and exhaust pipe, would I gain crank speed? Of course I would. I keep the same fueling so that does not change.

You buy a pipe to uncork air all clogged up, yes? Would a stock bike lose to a bike with pipe and air cleaner removed? Yes ... A different speed event with the same 130mm speed of the crank but occurs faster in time, yes or no? Hard to conceptualize that I know. It says with your theory of 130mm is that stock bikes should win with stock pipes and run faster than a Brock pipe or run the same numbers. That's what you are saying. I'm saying air pressure is slowing the speed event if all you did was change pipe with more flow.

Forget lean when air moves faster than fuel out of a jet. This is injected with pressure behind it. Ivan spends too much time sitting still when he rides and usually at 2 throttle positions..holding stead or at WOT.

School is open everyday here; I warn the suckers of the elixir is school them on lo-hi ya do'inn, Ivan? You know, you are the second tuner that has not grasped the computer concept or can explain that IAP catching lean, nor can you explain the tre. Hole he shits is it complex. Those and/or gates... talk about confuse your ass I introduce a 3rd gate.

Shows me something was there to contradict your lean statement when the needles say otherwise. And now you cannot explain it away. I get it with the school closed comment. Use is not fooling me, pal. You didn't when the tre came up, and now the needles.

And btw, Ivan...

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... What's with your flash? You'd think the C flash would be your flashed competition. No one raves about your flash, so are you just running the toggles and rpm limits, or more or less what Ryan has for $75? Why no run that 13.5a powerband like C? They say it smooths out the ride. Coming from a smoother, you'd think you take a chuck of that potential, revise the flash?

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Grn; My point wasn't that you did something underhanded "writing CBlast on the stock ecu", my point was that was what Vic was accused of, something underhanded. If you don't trust Vic's video, why should we trust yours? If you think his test is dishonest, disprove it. That doesn't mean come up with your own test. That means repeat his test, and prove that it's bullshit.

Wolf; You have hundreds of posts about C's flash. Yes, you are very "wordy", or post happy, but most of your posts are about C's flash. I can't imagine a casual customer would post that much about a single product, or be that aggressive about it. It appears to me that C doesn't want to anger the forum by "selling" his flash, so you are the acting salesman. Just my observation.

I wanted to answer the posts, but I'm still not commenting on the flash.

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You know..he tested his how he tested it.Doesn't matter to me.From what I saw,it appeared to be virtually identical in his comparo runs.I know that's not possible with a C flash in there...not on mine anyway.That's all I'm sayin.

I read these threads to learn as much as I can, teach whenever possible. What I'm learning these days is mostly about individuals and their ability to push their passion onto and into the minds of others.(Of course this is nothing new).

Soon in the Not too distant future as more and more information becomes available, your understanding will grow. Some Of You Are Going To Go Very Very Quiet. Sorry.

Hopefully from here team growth begins. Opinions based on No science only breeds more confusion.

Currently, I'm feeling bad for All the New ZX14 owners. These guys must be be in AWE trying to read through the Mud. Lol, I too struggle to keep up. Hurts My Head

Grn,
Vic is a numbers man. Play the vid, check his math, there is something in the flash. As I reread the same pages trying to figure out parts, the EE's draw up, "I want this and this to do this and this too..." and then the chip maker says, 'here they are, here's the specs, LTT is you are stuck with these truth tables,' do not breakout software wise or this now says in my whack world, like Ivan says, "not about to give away anything to the compo," so how can I find out about the brick? No one is going to tell me, so as I make up the steps right or wrong, call it a robust limp ala tre style.

Can I run hi (or is it lo?) lift = 18+a? Yes
Can I limp lo (or hi is it?) lift = 16.5a?

POP me a flip to flop.

If I wot the throttle, vac hits the IAP = Goes Rich Swing
If I read Ivan's abstract, watch my IAP = Welcome to Chaos-101

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You know..he tested his how he tested it.Doesn't matter to me.From what I saw,it appeared to be virtually identical in his comparo runs.I know that's not possible with a C flash in there...not on mine anyway.That's all I'm sayin.

Prove it. Instead of typing it again and again and again.

This is the longest going-nowhere thread I've ever read that doesn't have to be that way (unlike oil & tire threads). Grn ... you seem to be the best candidate to fix this thread, since you have OEM & Cblast ECUs and can swap them out in mere seconds, and you have a GoPro so you could vid the entire thing including the ECU swap. Can't you go out & do back-to-back OEM vs Cblast 40 - 100 roll on tests? Or whatever speeds you wanna do, just do them the same. Even better would be a single-gear roll on so gear changing is taken out of the equation. You pick the gear, you pick the speed. Focus that GoPro right on your dash.

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I did that...on page 8.The parking lot added some restrictions,because of space.Perhaps I'll try to get some 'on the road' tests done...right now...it's kinda pointless to pursue something like this.You know...I'm going by my 'unreliable' butt dyno.I have no 'numbers'.

This whole flashing thing is still evolving.Some guys do it the way they 'think' it should be...others,as close as possible to what the RIDER is trying to achieve.There is no 'magic' formula.Every flash is different.Every bike is different.That's one reason it's so hard to compare machines and flashes.The drag guys have a set goal in mind...the street guys really have no solid goal.I don't think so anyway.Other than great performance...whatever that may be to them.

I was disappointed to hear Vic say.."Cblast flash..NOT recommended".I think had he hooliganed it some,he would have felt a difference.He's a heavier rider...his bike probably weighs in at say,570?Doing a 4k roll on just seems...well...not an accurate way to feel the real difference.He didn't shift up in the meat of the powerband as was suggested.Had he done that,I think he might be feeling somewhat different...IDK.C's flash thrives in the midrange and upper rpm values,shifting and gassing it.You won't get that by rolling on in one gear and going to redline.

That's been my experience with anyway.And the low end is VERY strong...much stronger that the factory settings.It's not my imagination as was suggested.Because I 'wanted' to believe.

The piping and exhaust definitely play a big role in these flashes.C's got a Muzzy on his...I have a Brock's.He reflashed mine(upgrade)for my Brock's setup.The first one I think was for HIS exhaust setup.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 7/20/2015 @ 9:14 AM *

Doing a 4k roll on just seems...well...not an accurate way to feel the real difference.

Would be nice to get the past the "feel" claims. If it's not actually faster, then why bother? And if it can't be measured and therefore proven to be faster, then why bother?

Hey Grn - What would you think if you found out that the only thing a flash does is open the flies as soon as possible, and therefore all this time the LOUDER engine sound has made you think it's faster?

If somebody would do the requested test, we could put a stop to silly(?) ideas like that.

Here's the requested test. Let's tweak this until we have a consensus, and then maybe somebody will actually do it.

Requested test:

- Perform one or preferably more back-to-back OEM vs flash __ mph to __ mph roll-on tests in 1 gear (so no gear changing during the runs), with a video camera focused on your dash while riding, and with the camera watching you as you swap out ECU's.

* Last updated by: extrapolator on 7/20/2015 @ 10:05 AM *

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Page 8.For the second time now.Beginning to wonder about you Extrap!;)

"and with the camera watching you as you swap out ECU's"...LOL....yer killin me LarryLMAO.

It's a full video from garage to lot.CLEARLY you can see I've not stopped the footage,and CLEARLY show the swap out.

If ya can't believe that...fuggetaboutit.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 7/20/2015 @ 10:22 AM *

Grn - Yes I know. I watched your vid start to finish. That's exactly what I'm talking about ... but no throttle blippin' parking lot runs this time. Those don't tell us anything. Follow the rest of the test request.

Ew, there's a nice little poetic line I'm gonna repeat here until somebody actually does it

Follow the rest of the test request.
Follow the rest of the test request.
Follow the rest of the test request.

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I don't know what to say...'throttle blipping' is putting the power down..'immediately'...not waiting for the R's to climb in a steady pull.I'll try some run on tests sometime.Where I can gas it and not have to worry about braking in time;)

I think Vic may have been expecting drag bike off the line performance...He may have forgotten those kinds of launches are at 5K...even higher,in 1st.Unless a guy has nitrous or something...the pulling power from 4K isn't gonna take off like it would in the former scenario(on a 'basically' stock frame and minor mods(like piping).It just isn't.Not with stock gearing.I mean...that's how I see it...I could be wrong?

I know I can't convince anyone here...that's okay.I know my before and after flash bike performance.I'm happy with mine anyway.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 7/20/2015 @ 2:20 PM *

^^^
As my kids say - OMG! LOL

* Last updated by: roadczar on 7/20/2015 @ 2:32 PM *

I know I can't convince anyone here...that's okay.

Grn - You can DEFINITELY convince me. You know how? --> Follow the rest of the test request.

I know my before and after flash bike performance.

Do you? How? I don't see how you could know the 'before and after flash bike performance' without having actually tested anything. How about this question: If it's better, how much better is it?

I'm happy with mine anyway.

I know you are. I wonder if you still will be after you ... Follow the rest of the test request?

If you do a solid apples-to-apples roll-on test and see no benefit from the flash, you may still be happy, since you like the throttle blip change you say you can sense, but will you still think was worth $400?

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I know I can't convince anyone here...that's okay.

Your video isn't valid. How did you put it to me? You didn't follow directions!

LOL You know..he tested his how he tested it.Doesn't matter to me.From what I saw,it appeared to be virtually identical in his comparo runs.I know that's not possible with a C flash in there...not on mine anyway.That's all I'm sayin.

That's the whole point of the test. As I've running them I can't see any difference, never really could. What "wow" impressions I had a couple times early with the CBlast ECU were quickly checked by the same things happening with the stock ECU.

With that said, I figured the numbers would still be there. But they aren't so they aren't. There's nothing I can do about that. The test was conducted fairly and in no way biased for or against one of the ECUs. You can see my riding posture doesn't change test to test, you can see the fuel gauge is the same, actually within <.1 mile of each other for each set of test. Again, my goal was to support C's product. As I've said, now I have to wonder, what did I pay $400 for?

What would you be doing differently now if the flashed ECU were 2 tenths faster right now? Would you still be suspicious and all the bullshit?

I think Vic may have been expecting drag bike off the line performance...He may have forgotten those kinds of launches are at 5K...even higher,in 1st.Unless a guy has nitrous or something...the pulling power from 4K isn't gonna take off like it would in the former scenario(on a 'basically' stock frame and minor mods(like piping).It just isn't.Not with stock gearing.I mean...that's how I see it...I could be wrong?

Yes. Never seen one dyno operator dyno tune using your test method. Essentially, my test replicate a dyno pull except it's actual riding. Most dyno operators tune in 4th or 5th, except for the ones that want really high numbers they they go for 3rd.

Remember always Dyno numbers don't mean shit bike to bike

"Never seen one dyno operator dyno tune using your test method"...I'm not a dyno operator.Or a tuner.That's what dyno machines are for.If you DID see one doing it like that,RUN the other way as fast as possible.

So...does this mean you're gonna contact C and ask him to reflash your ECU?Or get your money back?You apparently didn't get what you paid for...There's others out there...how bout Guhl?

One thing about this whole deal here that I'm not quite understanding...maybe you could clarify it for me?

IF the flash wasn't what you expected or wanted,WHY not just call C and tell him how ya feel?He'd had NO problem trying to work this out in whatever way.When I first had him do mine..we talked..he called.Asked my input about the flash.It was then he told me,"you have a Brock's on there?'...I said,'yes'.He said...okay...can you send it back to me,I want to upgrade yours to be specifically for YOUR setup.At no cost.This never crossed your mind?to handle this deal like that?You do this with everyone that doesn't meet your criteria?WOW.

I'm curious here...you say it didn't gain anything.Well...you've layed this out there,now where's the dyno runs,stock vs C flash?You REALLY want to know if the flash changed anything?There ya go....black and white final proof for all to see.Ball's in your court now.

I don't have my dyno sheets anymore...they may be here in a thread I did way back...but my bike at 5500 ft was stock putting out 186 HP.Dynoed it the same day back to back on the same machine with the same unchanged conditions...Flash?191 HP.Torque was higher than stock as well.Romans can probably confirm my story here...I asked about the smoothing and such...which was the right one.I went BACK to the dyno guy cause he had set it a different way(smoothing)...he readjusted it.The numbers went up.(the next day).

I looked at your stats there...did you do some runs in 3rd only..at 4K.And some in 4th,at 4K?They all accelerated at the same speed.Is that normal?

I should also say...the dyno runs on mine did NOT have Ram Air in effect.That wasn't factored in.So actully,on the street,with ram air...it may very well have been putting out somewhat higher than the 191.Someday I intend to take it down to sea level...and get it dynoed.Just for the heck of it.I'm fairly certain the elevation and no ram air skewed my results to some degree.

Bottomline here..get your bike dynoed...before and after ECU's.You want to prove C blast ripped you off...here's your chance.Screw the butt dynos and the parking lot circus.And the 'timed' runs.Dyno will tell the REAL story here.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 7/20/2015 @ 8:42 PM *

Well said Grn, I've been waiting for that also, maybe we should take up a collection?

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That's the whole point of the test... see any difference, never really could. What "wow" impressions I had a couple times early...

Grn, catch that line above... 'a couple times early.'

One thing about this whole deal here that I'm not quite understanding...maybe you could clarify it for me?

I don't give a shit who wants to put you two thru more hoops, your parking lot proof is proof enough for me, the numbers speak for themselves. Get your kicks on a few times out, but it defaults back to Vic. Grn, it's there, he admits it.

You just ride your bike a little more sporty like. Like saying we all have a potential 9 or 8 second bike, but not too many ride their bike like that, I assume Vic is more a conservative, no need to, been there done that kind of my impression.

So the potential of the flash [for watt it's] worth, there is this low grunt action. Vic felt that a 'couple times.' Be honest Vic. What ECU is in the bike now? Since you have both, watt sits under the seat most of the time? Boy, this is going to be a hard one for you I know.

* Last updated by: Hub on 7/20/2015 @ 11:23 PM *

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When I first had him do mine...

Could you do wheelies that easy first time?

It was then he told me,"you have a Brock's on there?

I can't keep up. You had who first? I mean, who did you first send a virgin ECU to and as if it mattered, did they ask what kind of pipe and all that you had going?

I said,'yes'.He said...okay...can you send it back to me,I want to upgrade yours to be specifically for YOUR setup.

OK, and did this now change the bike into, 'it wheelie'd better than before' kind of change or no real change?

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