I think this will hopefully silence the my flash is bigger than your flash war :) There is really no reason to send your ECU to someone else to put a generic flash in developed for someone else's bike, modifications and location (i.e. exhaust, airfilter and other mods, altitude, temperature etc) when you now have the tools to tune your bike properly yourself, specifically to suit your bike, location and tuning preferences?
We provide a target AFR map which you can use within the software, you can also modify the target AFR should you have other requirements or tuning preferences.

Yes it should for sure but human nature won't let that happen. Now with woolich on the scene installed on many more bikes, a 1000 new flashes about to hit the table.

the target AFR for my bike may not be the same Target AFR for your bike, assuming we both have the same goal of making the most Power (either torque or hp). So with that said, now were back to square one

Not Square one. Will be willing to place a bet your AFR #'s will be very close to the same but your fuel maps to achieve the same AFR will now be different as it was made on your bike, the way it should be. Your AFR table you build for you will be the key to Awesome.

Just think, long road trip make a dual purpose map. Drag racer only Drag Map all that matters. Possibilities end less

Well, this should take the flash war to a whole new level..... Technology is my life and the tech part of this doesnt bother me one bit.

Flash war New level ? War has just ended. We all can make our own now. Trusting in yourself has value. Dark you will have no trouble with this.

SO what your saying hub is that the target AFR for my bike may not be the same Target AFR for your bike...

Hypothetical: You're from soaking sunny sea level Florida, I'm from mile high and dry Denver, Co. I turn the key on, my atmospheric sensor is not pressured to Florida's pressure. I turn the key on, I'm going to find the most hp/tq and that is all she wrote air wise, while you can walk in yours and be soaked in it.

assuming we both have the same goal of making the most Power (either torque or hp)

. See the change in all 3 flavors? = Temp/Damp/Press

So with that said, now were back to square one which is you may as well go get a custom dyno tune, unless you ass-dyno is just that good.

Ass right. Want to mess with the TPS? That's X for part of the input. RPM is Y and you can now monitor each AFR move with some saved live timing data to review. Hidden in that pile of snow is Snowflake Horse and Snowy TORque your arms off, Giddy Yup!

Wonder how good the suggested Target AFR's are from woolrich? They are a "racing" company after all.

Sure, I'm going to download a 1000ft made map sucking on the 3WChannels, come rain or come shine... I'm coming for your trophy.

Signed,
NOLTT

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Target AFR. You can set up a Target AFR map in the AutoTune screen.

Justin where is it I build a table like the one I have built below shown in pic. Auto tune screen ???? Must purchase to see ? I need to know I can build AFR tables with Ease. Boooost plays for keeps

This can't be all of it ? Must be a software down load too. Tech just changed, playing catch up hurts me Noodle

* Last updated by: Romans on 1/26/2014 @ 12:16 PM *

arch,

Listen to C. He sees the steps. Key word here is heat. So those maps are all about formula and presets. All you are going to do is exploit it for all its worth within that preset.

It goes something like this. You are under the shower, the water is either too cold or too hot to stand in. We just tasted two suggested targets off the net. We want our own target so we can stand under the stream of heat. That's our main target. It's a heat thing.

Heat makes HP and if you can't get the heat up or have too much heat, no joy standing under the shower. You can play with the formula even more and say, hey, try my map <faucet temp dial locations). It's hot here in fla. so the only way I can stand under this spray for any relief today is... say WOT? It's winter in the mile high and I'm trying to look for shade under the shower head? You mean you don't like where I targeted the hot faucet completely off and the cold all the way on and you gotta go, your dog is frozen outside stuck to his stream of piss?

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Romans, the Target AFR map is in the AutoTune secyopm, we have not enabled this for the Kawasaki's yet as the Log Box Pro has not shipped, however if you open up one of the free bin file in WRT, say a 2008 Hayabusa, you will see the AutoTune button, this is where you will load the logs from the Log Box Pro, the data is filtered, grouped and sorted into the cells of the fuel map on the first tab, the 2nd tab is a Data Count tab which shows you how many logs are in each cell in the fuel map and then the 3rd tab is the Target AFR map, you can easily enter whatever target values you want for both the IAP and TPS fuel maps or just use the Target AFR maps that are provided for you bin file.

The 4th tab show you what % changes are required to your current fuel maps to reach your target AFR, and the 5th tab is the AutoTuned Map where you view what the fuel maps will look like after applying the suggested changes, there is a whole bunch of complex maths that smoothes and improves the AutoTuned maps, if you want to apply the modified map to your bin file you just click on the "Apply AutoTune" button, flash the changes to your ECU and you are good to go log some more data and repeat the process. It generally takes a few log and tune sessions before the Logged AFR Data converges to the Target AFR.

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Hi Romans, the Log Box Pro works by logging engine data directly from the ECU at 100hz, it also logs AFR from a Zeitronix Wideband O2 sensor which connects with a direct digital connection to the Log Box Pro, the AFR is logged at 50hz. The data logs are imported directly into the WRT software in the AutoTune section, the data is grouped sorted, smoothed and processed and calculations are made to work out what changes need to be made to your fuel maps to achieve your desired Target AFR.

Ok, studied on the Busa Fill me in if I missed anything ?

Justin we have two inputs into log box pro, got it

All data Data to WRT software , got it.

Grouped and sorted software performs the math got it

Automatically Tune as we ride ??? Don't got it.

So the info is calculated and saved and stored, but I can not run in the closed Loop using collected data that was made based on the AFR table I Created. In short I'm building maps in the software and I must apply all changes manually. There Is No Closed Loop running and bike will not Auto Tune ECU as we ride ????? Correct ?

Yes that is correct, it is not closed loop, there are a various reasons why it is not implemented as a closed loop system including factors like exhaust gas offset i.e. there is a delay between when the combustion happens and when the AFR sensor reads the AFR so you cant adjust fueling for what happened in the past, as well as obviously when you write to the fuel maps in the ECU you have to erase the ECU before writing which makes it kinda difficult to update fuel maps inside the ECU when the bike is running :)

It is the same tuning concepts that we have implemented very successfully for the Suzuki's for a couple of years now with the original Log Box, it works exceptionally well.

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So this mimics the powercommander V with autotune setup except at a slight disadvantage. I say a slight disadvantage because once I get my powercommander map loaded, I can allow it to automatically adjust the map as I go down the road to the percentage of my choosing aimed at the target AFR of my choosing, which is not the case here as I understand it (IE-Closed LooP as Romans calls it?).

That being said, this setup has a million other features we dont have with the powercommander such as modifying timing, and all the other KTRC memory, cooling fan mods, top speed limiter, etc etc that you get with the woolrich software which makes it well worth it. Oh and the ability to bluetooth to the bike is just F-ing sweet. No other way to put it!

2 Questions?

One question I had from reading on your website, it doesnt specifically say that your interface allows us to disable or overwrite the safety map. Will it do that?

Hypothetical situation - Lets say I have a good powercommander map that I want to use. I only have the fuel table mod part, not the target AFR map. 1 - will the woorich software allow me to insert that fuel table copy paste or even manual entry, and 2- will it log actual AFR's achieved in each cell of the fuel table in the log data?

So I stick my map in there and I can see real world what AFR's I am achieving. Then, if I dont like it I can set new target AFR's, log some rides and correct?

* Last updated by: darkarcher on 1/27/2014 @ 7:46 AM *

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darkarcher, as far as I've been able to tell (unless there's a hidden setting somewhere), the PCV is an open-loop system as well as the ECU/Flash. The autotune collects data and makes recommendations (trims) that you need to accept in order to update the fuel map, it doesn't do this automatically "on the fly". However, you CAN (and I have) made changes to the fuel table while the motorcycle is running (idle AFR adjustment) which is not something you can do with a flash, but that's a pretty unique case.

Regarding jkwool's statement "there is a delay between when the combustion happens and when the AFR sensor reads the AFR so you cant adjust fueling for what happened in the past". That is very true, however, this is also why the automotive industry's closed loop system is constantly changing the fuel map, given an incredibly short sub second time window, it is reasonable to assume that the next intake stroke will have similar fuel requirements to the previous one/two and the fuel table can be trimmed within a reasonable degree of accuracy to achieve the desired AFR.

I'm by no stretch of the imagination an expert, and I know there's a lot more to it, I suspect things like the delay in the O2 sensor readings, the variable location of the sensor (how close to the exhaust ports, which cylinder, after a collector, etc) make a huge difference in the readings. Also, higher RPM engine means there's less time between each piston stroke which shortens the above mentioned time window which would make it harder to accurately adjust the fuel trim.

I am a little rusty on my PCV instructions, because my current bike has a flash, but I remember understanding that it does make the changes on the fly to the percentage you allow it. It also makes suggest fuel table changes that have to be accepted. So if you allow it to adjust 5% either direction, it will. Then you have to accept that change at which point is allowed to move another 5% either direction of the new mark. .

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I think the lag time in the reading process goes something like this.

Q. What is an 02 sensor?
A. This senses outside gases against itself, so solid is a non-player in this. Liquid says: I'm rich. Gas says: I'm lean.

Q. What is wide and narrow band?
A. This type 02 sensor has 1 wire out of its body. There is a waiting time to heat up the sensor before it begins to send a signal up that one wire. Inside the body, it takes heat 'to keep stimulating the electrons/protons' so as to switch from one side to the next and send that signal up. So it's really the heating of the body that is keeping it hot is how narrow in step is the data is being pushed up the wire = Lots of resistance.

The wide band takes it a step further and that is, [reduces the resistance problem] keeping that inside hot so one pro bangs on a pron and bangs data up the wire faster. Lets keep the inside hot so we run that resistance down some, here comes a wider amount of data.

It boils down to:

Narrow = Begin to boil water before sample can be sent.
Wide = Water is boiling... Start the fucking bike alreadyou want a sample!?

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Q. What is open loop?
A. I sit outside in the 1ATMO's pressure, not sniffing a gas sample. I am tuned to 0ft. My best target snowflake felt was 12.0 for argument sake. I climb up a mountain [for argument sake], the funny math says I change 1% rich every 1000ft. I am at 4000ft(@ 1.6%), my AFR has moved to 10.4 AFRich. I am handcuffed to the atmo's pressure. I can target any AFR against that pressure. My engine is not handcuffed to any set target. I can ping this way or pong lean that way.

Q. What is closed loop?
A. I breath gas pressure against my nose. Outside, I live without nostrils, but the atmosphere pressure leaning against me. I am like a ping-pong table. That safety net reads 14.7 or lambda and as long as that ping clears the net, then pong clears? Well, call it perfect timing, perfect lambda @ 14.7 is the only target and will not sway from that target. Say you fumble the ball on one side of the net? That's a rich side, I smell something too rich and I'll set it right back to lambda.

The ball now falls on the lean side you driving up the hill, but not an AFR has breached away from the target number that is going to be the same target over and over is 14.7 up the hill or down to sea level, you are handcuffed at this only targeted number.

Enter the pig onto a closed loop bike, the bike's 02 is going to counter your remote 02. Might as well pull over and evenly match the opposite ping [first] the ECU ponged, then [second] get it back to your 12.0h by the way, that's every stroke... you don't see it happening fast enough like the ECU does [at the speed of light], so we'll wait for that map change in closed loop, who's got the doughnuts, I call last slice...

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Based on your description Hub, the PCV auto tune is definitely narrow band. I remember having to set a timer inside the PCV telling it to wait 5 minutes before it started accepting any data from the auto tune sensor. So like you said, had to get it hot first.

* Last updated by: darkarcher on 1/27/2014 @ 11:17 AM *

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Based on your description Hub, the PCV auto tune is definitely narrow band.

arch, they tell me you have to read the hub a few times before you connect the dots.

To my understanding, the PCV has been wide since inception? I'm running an older AFR model w/out card, so I have to plug in that 9v adapter or lose 'volatile' data! So the trick of walking up to a bike to see how fast the black box processes, it's either 1 single wire out the 02 that says it's narrow with lots of heat to be made, or it's heated and shows many wires and that for sure is wideband style as per bosch specs is that LSU4.

* Last updated by: Hub on 1/27/2014 @ 11:47 AM *

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as far as I've been able to tell (unless there's a hidden setting somewhere)

Shame on Dyno-Jet. what is written is next to nothing. How to use would have been nice.

So this mimics the powercommander V with autotune setup except at a slight disadvantage. I say a slight disadvantage because once I get my powercommander map loaded, I can allow it to automatically adjust the map as I go down the road to the percentage of my choosing aimed at the target AFR of my choosing, which is not the case here as I understand it (IE-Closed LooP as Romans calls it?).

Advantage; PCV Wide Band 2 Running Auto tune Software runs Closed Loop. AFR table you create gets applied as well as recorded. You the rider must decide afterwards if you want the changes applied to your base map. Amazing parachute if you make any mistakes in your manual edit, lose fuel pressure etc.. Engine Saver, Love it. Saved me Countless times, Boost would have had me. I will always be grate full for the introduction. Cheers.

Disadvantage, It's To Dame Slow. 10 times a second is old news now. I could write pages on the grief the lack of speed has cost me in tuning. Dozens of runs may now done in three or four, we will see? My hope is Issues now solved. Welcome the future of inside ECU Tunning on our beloved ZX-14

Now we have Smoooooking fast

100Hz Engine Data logging to micro SD card ** (i.e. every 10 ms) WOWWWWW!!!!!!!
50Hz direct digital connection to Zeitronix Wideband O2 controllers
100Hz data logging of 8 AD Channels to micro SD card

Zeitronix2 Wideband O2 controllers been around for awhile(2010) but now that the two talk together via (ZT3) ECU = Awesome Digital

To my understanding, the PCV has been wide since inception?

Yes, the Birth Place of Dyno-Jets Auto Tune.

arch, they tell me you have to read the hub a few times before you connect the dots.

Yes a few times, and I can assure the Dots always connect. The Hubish does not give up the info freely, you must read and earn passage. Spend the time, second line may contain the info needed to complete your own End Game.

I have to say that as a drag racer I'm pretty excited about this.

Mr. JK woolrich, if you could answer these for me that would be amazing.

"2 Questions?

One question I had from reading on your website, it doesnt specifically say that your interface allows us to disable or more likely overwrite the safety map (or at least not anywhere I say 1 week after lasik surgery mind you). Will it do that?

Hypothetical situation - Lets say I have a good powercommander map that I want to use. I only have the fuel table changes, not the target AFR map. 1 - will the woorich software allow me to insert that fuel table copy paste or even manual entry, and 2- will it log actual AFR's achieved in thelog data so I can see what my achieved AFR map looks like?

So I stick my map in there and I can see real world what AFR's I am achieving. Then, if I dont like it I can set new target AFR's, log some rides and correct as you explained above. That would be awesome...... " ----- Me exploding with excitment.

* Last updated by: darkarcher on 1/27/2014 @ 6:01 PM *

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Dang Grn, I love that big Montana sky, nice shot, I'll have to get up that way someday!

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Just wanted to clear up a couple of things in some posts above

1) A narrowband sensor (as generally used stock on cars and bikes) have an output range of 0-1v and they only measure over a very narrow region of AFR e.g. 13-15 AFR, they also have a non linear response with a switching point at or close to 14.7 AFR. A wideband O2 sensor has a linear response over 0-5v and they measure much more accurately over a much larger AFR range typically 10-20 AFR. Wideband O2 sensors are much more suited to tuning. Both narrowband and wideband o2 sensors require a heating circuit to heat the sensor.

2) Autotune in WRT allows you to tune both IAP and TPS fuel maps as well as the different modes in the ECU. It also allows you to see each and every data log so if you are so inclined you can really get inside how your bike is running down to a low level, or you can use it in a simple review and apply approach accepting the suggested values to very quickly tune your bike. The autotune in a PC5 knows nothing of the different power modes and map types (IAP and TPS) that are actually used in the ECU it just messes with the signal coming from the ECU to the Injectors.

3) Currently in our software we have the safety mode maps available so you can edit them directly to enter the same map values used by the main maps, this effectively disables the safety mode as when the bike goes to safety mode it is running the same maps as the regular mode, however i have been speaking to a couple of customers (Romans being on of them) and he mentioned that it would be better if the safety mode was completely disabled, this is particularly useful if you are running 2 different fuels in the different modes etc. So this is something we have added to the To Do list.

4) Converting a powercommander map to the ECU fuel map is not as straight forward as copy and paste as they both have different ways of working and different map axis values. The power commander has % change values which add or subtract fuel, the ECU fuel maps have absolute numbers which control how long the injector is open. Some people have developed spreadsheets to allow a powercommander map to be applied to the ECU fuel maps, but with the release of the Log Box Pro this is no longer needed, your best approach is to start with a stock bin file and use the Woolich Racing AutoTune in compination with the Log Box Pro to tune the fuel maps.

5) The first screen in the AutoTune module is where you load your log files from the Log Box Pro. This shows you the actual logged AFR with the data grouped and presented in the same format as the fuel maps so you can see exactly where the bike is running across the fuel map, if you click on a cell you will see every data log that has been logged in a cell, so for example if there are 20 data logs for 2000 RPM and 10% TPS, when you click on this cell you will see a list of each and every data log and the details of AFR, TPS etc etc, so you can really delve into the logged data if you choose to.

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1) A narrowband sensor (as generally used stock on cars and bikes) have an output range of 0-1v

1. Wide = .1v to .9v frequency ~ Non-moving part.
2. Sensor - .1 to 5.0 frequency - Moving parts. Pg. 3-63 the APS(OL) and 02(CL) are the same = DC 4.75 - 5.25v
3. Narrow = .1 to .9v ~ Non-mover inside sans a chem react.

Narrow = Resistance is huge and is limited in range to catch up. Can it measure 10 to 22 AFR? Sure. Primitive and slow getting there however. Manufacturer still builds a wide/narrow to ping on/off that stoic target.
Wide = Heated the chemical reaction inside with 5v. Trickles down to sending a .1 to 9.v (non-moving part) kind of frequency up/down the wire = Toggle OFF when rich. Toggle ON when lean = Target is still aimed at "Lambda-14.7" no matter the bandwidth.

Same exact frequency is in the absolute same number that can be measured, but a resistance is in the way:
I scream to the top of my lungs, you can see the db ping to the same frequency = I am wide band.
I scream to the top of my lungs, I will have the same frequency, but I am screaming into a pillow = I am narrow in band width.

Ohm's Truth Table = Amp. My amperage rate is preset. I can squeeze out a peep or I can increase from there, give me a bullhorn not a pillow.

Ohm's Truth Table = Ohm. My ohm can be a pillow or a bullhorn, or a cone and yell into it. There is a preset resistance number-factor no matter how I mess with your abstract. Magnetism and Chemicals are our handcuffing in this world. Where are your mags and chems to match the volts out of the air? I see 14.7 and to me and my world it looks at frequency a whole different way than others we dissect that 02 sensor.

and they only measure over a very narrow region of AFR e.g. 13-15 AFR, they also have a non linear response with a switching point at or close to 14.7 AFR.

You are in a magnetic world and linear means 1v<<>^>2v3v4v5v. Between 1 and 2v there is a spike happening, you switch from on to off or vice verse. That arch is not a good signal. I think the under .9v is why if we use your abstract from saying a wide uses 0 to 5v is the 02's number range? What happens when it hit's the spike before it makes a square wave? I say you are under 1 volt so the frequency is clean? Again, I am saying I am sending the exact same frequency since the narrow can read the same exact number as a wide, chemically speaking. But that pillow is heating that "one wire 02" as opposed to having the heater [chemically] ready to go.

Chemically speaking, that AFR analog meter is going to read the sample faster being chemically heated sooner. The needle swings slower when it has to heat that 0ne wire 02 sensor and then chemically wait as it keeps heating the inside without an electrical assist of heating molecules but has to wait for the chemicals inside to react as they are cooling off when a cylinder is not firing past that sensor.

The parts used inside the wide causes a more linear response to the chemical reaction. Why? Stimulates the wides chemical makeup of the two dissimilar properties inside so the specimen is sampled faster = Wide as opposed to Narrow> In that time frame of heating the two dissimilar properties.

A wideband O2 sensor has a linear response over 0-5v and they measure much more accurately over a much larger AFR range typically 10-20 AFR. Wideband O2 sensors are much more suited to tuning. Both narrowband and wideband o2 sensors require a heating circuit to heat the sensor.

Turn the crank one full turn. Starting that crank was at 0. Until you stop, there was a peak of a rise and then it subsided and stopped once hitting 0 or no movement again. That both made a square wave and you could make an ocean wave inside that square so it meets in the middle of that full length square.

So if I said, I am going to capture a volt; know where that peak is; I am going to flip a flop right right there; because I can measure that peak frequency; make a toggle to go on or go off electronically on the motherboard; I type code and all that truth tabling so it matches and into the chip it goes. My chemical specimen also has a number designated to it and I know that number. So at peak volt between .1, I am going to smack .4444v or at peak wave is half between that 'under' .9v. I'm going to call .1v as rich and .9v as lean. So now I can flip-flop that puppy right there. Want to see the flip flopper on the motherboard that does this? Want to see the barracks of the binary start machining what file to find and pass the truth tabling going on before a 1 flips into that one barrack, then the next to a flop is a 1 or 0 and until those 8-bits are filled?

No offense, jwool, but I read abstract like I read Ivan and if you are getting that info off the net on some car site... Forgetaboutit! They now need to speak in computer language and know the parts on that motherboard or they speak not in the Penultimate. See if the hubshit makes more sense we heat up a molecule and check its temp? That chemmy molecule has an electrical number to it: like Ohm sets the table for it.

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hub with all due respect, can you please speak in plain english, i generally skip your posts as i find it difficult to follow, i have a deep understanding of this topic but your contribution is easy to dismiss. I really dont mean to offend you (or anyone else) and i am sure you have a lot to add, but it would be infinitely more valuable if it was readable and left the abstract out of what is a technical discussion.

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Currently in our software we have the safety mode maps available so you can edit them directly to enter the same map values used by the main maps, this effectively disables the safety mode as when the bike goes to safety mode it is running the same maps as the regular mode, however i have been speaking to a couple of customers (Romans being on of them) and he mentioned that it would be better if the safety mode was completely disabled, this is particularly useful if you are running 2 different fuels in the different modes etc. So this is something we have added to the To Do list.

Justin first thing comes to mind is "Be careful What You Wish For"

In re guards to the Safety Map. From the ones I have been helping off line, they feel for the most part Safety Map should be in a Drop Down Box. You know Simple check mark and we are off to the races.

My issue with that is now we the user give up the full in site view to what is really going on inside the ECU. Would it be easier, Yes of course. But now I have to guess what you the software developer is doing inside the software and am blind to what changes you made. As it is Now I make the changes everywhere. Or don't make them, it's my call. Like the controll.

I know most don't see it that way but hoping if you do respond to the masses, we get a drop down with a view of the changes and the ability to adjust ??? Sounds like allot of work to build on your end I know, but it's on the wish list. Or may give the user the option to run old version software with out the up date.

Anyway very gratefull to have what we have now and will work with all you send down the pipe. Cheers

The safety map should never have been there in the first place. It's insulting that they even wrote it into the software. Hey guys here's the most powerful production motorcycle on the planet! O and by the way we rigged it up to where you can't use all the power! YOUR WELCOME!!! :)

In their defense, when you put a 115lb (suited) japaneese guy on this thing and pin the throttle, there's probably need for a safety map.

* Last updated by: darkarcher on 1/28/2014 @ 12:15 PM *

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