It'd be great to hear your impressions doing it as I suggested.You're missing out with a 4K,4th gear run.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/29/2015 @ 9:18 PM *

Grn; if leaning out the mix causes a bump in hp on the dyno, but a too lean condition when ram air comes into effect, therefore slowing the bike, how would you verify it? By duplicating a dyno run on the street where ram air comes into effect. This makes sense to me. So if Vic tested 3rd gear 4k to redline, and got the same results, what would you complain about then? Why are the testing parameters wrong? Because he picked the flash's weak point? Why are you still pissing at Vic? You have the power to duplicate his test and prove him wrong. Do it! CBlast has the power to prove him wrong. Where is he? If he won't support his own product, then why are you? Quit the name calling, and put your butt dyno where your mouth is. If you don't want to prove Vic wrong, then let it go.

---

Senseless argument. I wonder how many have actually looked at the maps in the cblast flash to try and undestand. It is basically just 2nd gear fuel map with small changes at a few rpm points then copied over to all cylinder. Then add in some timing adjustments. Then open STP sooner, raise rpm and remove TSL. Maybe adjust fan for some. Nothing groundbreaking here.
Am I saying it's a Rip Off???
No, it does perform better than stock, your AF will see a slight improvement. Low end is much better (STP open sooner) Bike does sound and feel different. Will run faster at track.
How do I know??? I purchased the cblast flash and have compared it back to back at track. I also have invested in the complete woolich interface set up with zetronics AF and datalogging. The changes made in the AF are enough to see an improvement in mph at track. Yes leaning it out would likely cause a dyno gain as well but and this is important.....IT WILL gain on the street as well. I have datalogged hundreds of runs so far and the stock cblast AF although better than stock still leaves room for additional improvement (at least in my climate and fuel) I will not share what AF ratio that I have found runs best on my bike. That's what testing is for. I have been on dyno/track and street datalogging and continually adjusting. I am no expert but I am learning alot. With changes to fuel and timing there is room for improvement over stock and cblast as well. Not knocking his flash I feel it performs well for the person who wants more than stock but unwilling to go to the expense and trouble of custom mapping for your conditions. You get what you pay for.
Before anyone asks, yes I have tried other flashes (will not name tuners don't ask) and also other popular fuel maps. As with the cblast I feel there is room for improvement in all of them. You just have to take the time to match map to YOUR bike/fuel. Hell to keep it perfect you will be adjusting it every time Air Density changes. Get gas from another source? Probably need another adjustment.
This won't end the argument but I think everyone serious about getting the most possible Hp out of there bike should be mapping it themselves. The "canned" flashes only get you so far. Then again how many of you actually use every last HP the bike has now? If you are happy with a better sounding, more low end grunt machine with no restrictions then the flashes sold are worth the money. For the rest of us you NEED to be able to adjust parameters on your own?
Calling out tuners without properly testing or even having the capability to test their product is ludicrous. Don't like the product don't buy it! Real simple but to try to convince others it's not worth it WITHOUT properly testing? Smh
Forgive the long post!!
Edit : even though I have the cblast maps I do not and will not sell or flash them for others. I have recommended and even sent friends to him to get the flash. Even after testing and knowing what's in it. Also for what it's worth I'm currently at 216 rwhp on the dyno with the valve cover never off. Only mods are Brocks CT full system,clutch mod bmc air filter and Joe gibbs xp1 oil. My flash & still making changes.
:)

* Last updated by: drt2706 on 8/30/2015 @ 8:18 AM *

Before anyone asks, yes I have tried other flashes (will not name tuners don't ask)

Who were the other tuners?

---

hagrid !!
honestly having been in the racing industry (cars mostly) for most of my life I refuse to get in a mudslinging match. In my opinion All the popular tuners are competent and you will get what you pay for. I only mentioned cblast because it seems he is getting blasted unfairly (word play) :) my point wasn't to call him or any other tuner out. Simply the need to be fair and Complete in testing before trashing someones work. I am personally glad and appreciate ALL the tuners who try to make our bikes faster. I do feel that one needs to take the time and spend the money to learn if you really want the best possible results.

"Simply the need to be fair and Complete in testing before trashing"...I wasn't gonna post on here(this topic)anymore...but FINALLY...SOMEONE with a professional mind about these things showed up!

I want to know only ONE thing....just one.WHAT is your opinion of the Vic test.

Of course you needn't answer...but you sound very sharp.And unbiased for sure.

"Then you're dumbass got it back, somehow in your head heard the bike sound and feel different. You're the bullshitter, and worst of all, you're bullshitting yourself"...as opposed to..."it does perform better than stock, your AF will see a slight improvement. Low end is much better (STP open sooner) Bike does sound and feel different. Will run faster at track".

How bout it Vic?Still think I'm BSing?

I still maintain...the only validated way to put the question"has it changed" to rest is to dyno it.Compare the two ECU's.If it's been flashed...it'll show SOMETHING visibly different...regardless of the outcome on the street.All the street "testing' is subject to a LOT of variables.The dyno will show what's really been changed.

FWIW...I'm NOT trying to 'prove' Vic's wrong.His test verified that there was virtually no change.Okay...so it is what it is.His speed test is valid...that never was my direction.My direction was...power application...not speed.Somehow that got convoluted in this whole deal.Now...check the ECU's.To finalize this deal.Back to back.On a dyno.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/30/2015 @ 9:05 AM *

It doesn’t matter if it’s faster at the track (won’t be enough difference). It doesn’t matter if it dyno’s 8hp higher (dyno’s don’t matter) the only thing that matters is Vics test.

"It doesn’t matter if it dyno’s 8hp higher (dyno’s don’t matter)"...

If it made 8HP more or whatever...that PROVES it's been flashed...whattaya mean... 'it doesn't matter'...sheesh.

All you guys saying a DYNO result 'doesn't matter'...is it just me?Or do these comments make totally NO sense in finding out whether his ECU is stock,or flashed?THAT's the issue here....has it been flashed?So damn simple to find out...yet soooo damn difficult for the OP to do...WTF?

He can get it dynoed easily for 60 bucks just to show any changes.But he doesn't want to DO that.I say...WHY NOT?And THAT's the crux of this.WHY NOT?What's he afraid of?

If it were me...and all this stuff had produced 14 pages of controversy as this one has,I'd have my ass down to the local Dyno guy and be testing it...for my OWN info.Regardless of the outcome.I'd want to know.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/30/2015 @ 9:26 AM *

I race so I only care about VERIFIABLE data, ie dyno, AF, EGT temps Actual electronic timing etc....
also I don't ever believe in making comments that could be misconstrued as negative against any of the people in the industry who spend a considerable amount of their time trying to help others. We need all the help we can get. The ones who don't perform will eventually be weeded out without negative comments. RESULTS are what drives this industry not misinformed or misguided efforts. I was a valvetrain specialist with one of the leading titanium valve companies and am aware of the need for accurate testing. Making horsepower is not a game its more of an exact science driven by testing & changes. Accuracy is paramount to good results.
As to the sound I questioned that at first but it is unmistakingly there. My OPINION is that the differences in cylinder mapping from Kawasaki is in part to make the engine run smoother as well as for the AF of each cylinder. I do not have egt's installed (yet) to verify this. I know other manufactures have used this in the past. With the unifying of cylinder mapping you could get a slightly 'rougher' sound.

wasn't trying to start or flame anyone just as an unbiased observer who doesn't even post ( I just come here to learn) I appreciate it when comments about products that help or hurts our bikes have some sort of verifiable conclusion I can rely on.

I ask this...laying all 'gains' or 'losses' aside...WILL a back to back DYNO run(s) PROVE whether the ECU's are stock or flashed?(taking off the baseline stock ECU settings).

It's been hammered here over and over about how a dyno run 'proves nothing'.Honestly,I just can't get my head around these comments...especially when there's gazillion DYNO machines being used right NOW to determine data with the motor.

From guys who USE dynos here no less.Or HAVE used dynos in the past.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/30/2015 @ 9:37 AM *

as for the dyno, there is a difference but since that doesn't matter (it does) I will just say in back to back testing at track I seen a 2 mph gain in the 1/8 mile (stock flash vs cblast) the stp opening sooner has no effect (at the track) but the safety map changes does. also the slightly leaner AF helps out. It is not to lean on the dyno, there is additional room for improvement. Find out what target AF your bike likes and tune to it and you will see gains from stock mapping
if someone doesn't believe their is an improvement they are welcome to meet me at a track in NC and I will flash stock first make couple of passes then cblast flash and make more.....not a call out to race anyone I will perform test on MY bike and let them watch and see the flashing

* Last updated by: drt2706 on 8/30/2015 @ 9:59 AM *

"as for the dyno, there is a difference but since that doesn't matter (it does)"...thank you.I get what you're saying...but you watch...SOMEONE is gonna say...'he said it didn't matter'....

Vic's goal here seems to be that nothing was done with his ECU...okay...SHOW nothing was done with irrefutable evidence...instead of this 'it felt no different'..or a video of 'it shows no difference'.That's all I'm saying.

The dyno WILL show something different or not.Am I right?

When virtually all who've had a c flash say 'it's different'...and one person says(or shows)'there's NO difference'...what does that conclude?It either means the tests were not done in the correct parameters...OR...you get the picture.

What's so damn hard to understand this?Why all the shoving matches?It's on Vic...not on C to run these confirmations.Am I the ONLY one here to see this?I can't be..no way.

I'm just amazed that NO ONE is saying...'dyno the ecu's'...Just amazing.

I dynoed mine before and after.CLEARLY it showed a difference.If Vic's ECU has C's personal flash in there...it's GONNA show.It has to.Mine did...regardless of how much or how little HP it made wide open.You could clearly see the A/F and power change were different.It's a no-brainer.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/30/2015 @ 9:55 AM *

opinions vary
dynos are used by the best for a reason. you just have to know how to use what you learn to make educated changes or then it becomes useless. Instead of mocking technology embrace it and learn from it. I remember when engineers first came to Nascar. (yeah im old lmao) Everyone laughed and said it would never work. Look now

* Last updated by: drt2706 on 8/30/2015 @ 9:55 AM *

"dynos are used by the best for a reason"...exactly.They ARE a valid way to SEE changes in tuning.Any one saying they're worthless has got to be from another planet or something.That's what's so bewildering to me concerning some of these guys comments.Lay it all aside.All the tests.All the 'results'...IS THE ECU showing DIFFERENT results on a run compared to factory?

Somehow I think that Vic is afraid to actually confront C if he finds out that his wasn't actually flashed...other than the simple settings defaults. I get it...C's a seasoned Marine.Vic's a blow hard.I get it.

"it doesn't have to be dynode. according to some that wouldn't matter anyway.(I believe it does but that's my opinion)

just hook it up to a computer and read the binfile on it, there is your answer. If he is close to me I would meet him and read it for free as im sure a lot of people with the software to do so would happily do."...

and there it is.....what say YOU VIC?(I can hear it now.."It's locked".)

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/30/2015 @ 10:08 AM *

Here is what people are saying about the flash:

"I just got back from Loring Land Speed event and my 2014 zx14R
with a CBlast modified ECU did 208 MPH and 14 runs over 200
To me that was money well spent!!!!"
- Capt10ed, 09/03/14

"The midrange seemed to really light up, with power wheelies in the first three gears. I'm 250 in full race leathers, so this is no small feat. The power through the middle was smooth, fat and inexorable. Absolutely perfect for driving this pig off the apexes.
The top end, well, is the top end. It feels like the natural extension of the midrange, with stunning power all the way to the bumped redline. No hesitations, flat spots or stumbles. Just face-melting power, for as deep as you can hold on. This bike will reel in ANYTHING down a straightaway, but if something like a new 10R or a Panigale gets a better drive than you, it'll be a battle.
After a few sessions on the track, I rolled it over to the mobile dyno trailer for a quick spin.
Horsepower: 201.55
Torque: 118.45
The dyno has a safety shut-off at 205 mph. Mjölnir shut off the dyno."
- TRAILBOSS, 6/16/14

"TO the site: Stay tuned guys. I am not done and I promise that CBLAST is not done. I have no reason to be anything but transparent in my findings. If you think you can disprove me then get a lane."
- Maverick1441, 6/15/14

"I have to say that Cblast's flash update has really kinda blown me away.... The pull climbing the rpm scale is really amazing... Thank You C for the kick ass ride quality and Performance....Fuel mileage was quite stunning as well...and engine temps Very good..."
- Grn14, 6/3/14

"Now the meat. There's a noticeable improvement starting at about 2500rpm - 5000rpm, so much smoother, VERY controllable in that area for those of you that run your bike towards the lower end in corners, I would say that if you have just "reasonable" throttle control you're gonna reduce the chance of a nice, slip-bite-highside by way over 50%. From 5000rpm to around 8000rpm if you can picture the surface of glass, it's just a little smoother than that, absolutely PERFECT for those faster sweeping corners that are so much fun to take at say, 120-140, you'll feel like an expert in no time because of it. From 8000rpm to limiter, think GODZILLA!! Geeezus guys, it took my cheeks two days to get all the way back to my face. It truly pulls so smooth and hard that my seat looked like I had put a cigar out on it! LOL"
- SicNinja, 4/22/14

"Feels like a differnt bike doesn't it :) It so smooth, but deceptive .....
Second gear rollon wheelies with ease, but yea, don't wack the throttle hard in first,
Or your going over ! Third pulls like NEVER before, and there is power and torque
EVERYWHERE, even in 5th and 6th cruising ......
And now with my new Tires, it's even better ! The way the power is delivered coming out of
Corners, it feels like a lighter bike, I don't know how to explain that ......
I swear I got light headed today from the acceleration ! No joke !"
- CarAbuser, 6/03/14

"The Cblast flash truly is ALL you need.No PC5....I had a Brock's/Guhl flash on my first 14R.....and a PC5(with Brock's mapping)....gotta say....the Cblast flash is light years ahead of those guys.EVERYTHING just runs better.;)You get Cblasted...you won't believe it;)"
- Grn14, 06/04/14

"The only issue is you will have to watch your speed more often / harder. The bike just wants to be fed more and more throttle. MPG is up with the speed as well. Stop worrying and get Cblasted."
- Fatsix, 06/04/14

"I sent my ECU to Sebastian with high hopes but knowing that sometimes things don't live up to the hype, especially in the motorcycle performance world.
This isn't one of those times....
My hopes were exceeded....by an immeasurable amount. It is a different bike, it pulls so much harder, especially in the mid-range. I won't bore you by saying what everyone else has already said....but what you have read is true....only when you actually experience it, it is even better.
Thanks Cblast for your product and your professionalism during our dealings.
Best,
Troy

And someone thinks a DYNO won't reveal this?Whatever.

And I guess all these guys are delusional,thinking their bikes are 'faster' or stronger.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/30/2015 @ 11:18 AM *

I hate to sound as if im defending cblast, that's not my intentions. I am from N.C. and have never met him. But I would defend ANYONE in the industry who attempts to help us go faster. I have learned the hard way that not everyone is going to be happy no matter what you do to help. They prefer instead to be 'right' instead of admitting when wrong even if it hurts them. Im not like that my end goal is to be faster. Sometimes things work sometimes they don't, you should always give someone a chance to fix any problems before blasting them. Simple respect. You will get more done that way. If you have been part of this industry for any amount of time you will have seen ALL the tuners, builders & manufactures getting hammered by some irate customer who bought their product and now they feel cheated. maybe some of them deserve that maybe not but at least use verifiable facts/data when presenting your argument to others. Think about how you would feel if some irresponsible person took away your way of living. Sometimes its better to be quiet than right, so now im going to take my own advice and not post any longer on this subject.

NOTICE...not ONE of these commenters did a 4k,4th gear pull and left it at that.

At least SOMEONE gets the idea of "not responding".Totally with ya on this.I should take your advice as well...I've said my piece also.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 8/30/2015 @ 11:15 AM *

Sometimes its better to be quiet than right, so now im going to take my own advice and not post any longer on this subject.

Considering you managed to wear a keyboard out in just 4 or 5 posts yet managed to actually say nothing at all this is for the best.

---

Considering you managed to wear a keyboard out in just 4 or 5 posts yet managed to actually say nothing at all this is for the best.

He described who he was and what he is about. He showed respect to those that deserve it. He is actually able to ride his bike to its potential.

Vic you have done none of these things that are considered CREDENTIALS. Your purpose has never been stated, your disrespectful, and it's painfully apparent that you have a below average riding ability. So Grn just let this go brother. There is no possible way that anyone reading this thread would take what Vic has said and honestly believe it. They can search his posts and see what an argumentative child he has been during his time here and completely disregard any "opinion" that he has. Like DRT2706 I am at the track every weekend and push my bike to its limits. I have also started using the log box Woolich setup and learning the intricacies of our ECU. Gaining a tenth of a second at the track is a great improvement. There isn't a "butt dyno" on the planet that can detect that amount of change. Food for thought.

It is basically just 2nd gear fuel map with small changes

What was this 13.5a push of the flash then?

... your AF will see a slight improvement. Low end is much better

Rich to 13.5a, right? Torque is more fuel ratio, the ign is a given. So is there a 13.5a torque improvement?

Will run faster at track.

I think one test said they broke even? That's just one night's round of swapping flashes and the average was 3 a piece.

I purchased the cblast flash and have compared it back to back at track.

Against whom? You're losing credibility you don't cough up other flashes to compare. 216 to the rear wheel computes out to what in the 1320? Has to be in the low to mid 8's?

The changes made in the AF are enough to see an improvement in mph at track.

Tell that to 'The Hand.' Sure didn't beat or come close to another flash if I recall his signature line. Any time slips for a backup?

I have datalogged hundreds of runs so far

Were these all with C's or have you compared that with the "other tuner's flashes," because a dozen or two runs on one flash, you have about 75 and the other hundreds left to test against/compare to the other tuners. So are you saying that C is better over Don's, because I'm using his flash as the benchmark; once it's in Smoke's hands.

Not knocking his flash I feel it performs well for the person who wants more than stock

So with this statement, C's flash outperforms Romes' Don's, Ryan's, who'd I leave out? You've compared all these I've mentioned to come to this conclusion? Would you be interested in changing wallets? That's a lot of testing out the pocket.

Before anyone asks, yes I have tried other flashes (will not name tuners don't ask) and also other popular fuel maps.

So you reached around and shelled out for every tuner's flash. And what is a 'popular fuel map?' Ivan fits that category if you want to reach around and buy something popular. Brock's is open map you try his pipe and all those different combos of air cleaners, etc.? How extensive were these tests? Burn out the bike on the dyno? What year is it? I assume it's a 14? Not that it matters. Bikes are generic anyway.

The "canned" flashes only get you so far. Then again how many of you actually use every last HP the bike has now?

I'm surprised Brock, Smoke are not running C's flash, if they got those kinds of numbers out of the bike with Don's flash. If I recall, C could not cut that time or come close, and that's that frequency change and all that. So what happened there? I doubt they changed Don's flash at the track or has changed it since and those are pretty potent numbers.

If you are happy with a better sounding, more low end grunt machine with no restrictions then the flashes sold are worth the money.

So what you are saying is that with all the flashes you've gone thru, it seems the flashes make the same move in grunt/sound, etc.?

Calling out tuners without properly testing or even having the capability to test their product is ludicrous.

I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm trying to make sure you've done your homework and can attest to choosing one flash over the other and who's are you pushing?

Don't like the product don't buy it! Real simple but to try to convince others it's not worth it WITHOUT properly testing?

I'm sure you've been staying up on this flash, along with the house threads/posts, meaning. I think Smoke's back to back with Don's flash showed it was all even up with C's. I think Smoke showed a few AFR numbers of the flash at idle was it? Still, there was a swing of the needle. So was this a 13.5a map or a few cell moves and all of a sudden it's not far off from stock did you say?

I have recommended and even sent friends to him to get the flash.

Sounds strange that if this is such a good map or flash, not to be a dick, just asking, how come Smoke's bike sort of broke even if not adding up the averages and I think Don's flash was outperforming that simple math move of the averages. Strange with all those flash tests, your 14 was it, did not out perform Smoke's numbers or came close to an 8.4 and that's with Don't flash I'm going to assume.

Even after testing and knowing what's in it.

And could you look into the other flasher's maps? How could you compare if not knowing the other competitors flashes?

Also for what it's worth I'm currently at 216 rwhp... Only mods are Brocks CT full system,clutch mod bmc air filter

Didn't Brock find out the aftmrkt filters lose HP? How come you didn't see a gain swapping back to a stock element? What kind of HP did Brock finally make? Is this 216 a new benchmark?

---

I was pretty open minded when this whole thread started.
But certain silences have spoken much louder than words to me.

But drt2706, I have to admit i'll be very interested in your responses to Hub's above questions.
Especially the one, "Before anyone asks, yes I have tried other flashes (will not name tuners don't ask)".
That appears a little strange as you seem quite comfortable to name one particular flasher over and over?
By not naming the others you have tried, its a little hard to understand where you are basing a lot of your opinion.

And again as Hub said, not trying to be a dick but I notice your first and only 10 posts on this site are straight into two particular threads where you basically defend a particular flasher and pretty much rip into one of the thread originators (1151 posts) for his differing testing techniques and views to yours.
Right, wrong or in between, perhaps earn a few stripes here first?

Again, interesting...

Not trying to offend here, just to understand...

* Last updated by: yannih on 8/31/2015 @ 4:49 AM *

---

"Don't like the product don't buy it!"
Well that's pretty much impossible since you have to buy to try.

---

The saddest thing besides the fact that this thread is still alive is that it's free advertising being that it's at or near the top of the current threads every week.

It should be free advertising for someone with class like Rick Romans.

---