If I am confused, it is difficult for you to comment based on what I tell you.

I think WE are overthinking this. I thought the hell out of this as I was doing it. Very unlikely I made any mistakes with the help of you and 1bad.

Made a discovery that cast a huge question mark over the whole project. My 06 SM shows diagram where cams point away from one another on the left. The 2010 SM shows the cams point in at one another for the same diagram. IDK if I was checking the valves for #1 TDC with #4 at TDC or if I got it right?

Let this put my mind at rest.....I think I figured out the diagram weirdness between the manuals.

This is the diagram for #1 TDC.

...and here is the diagram for #4 TDC

Hub, can you tell me what the inset diagram on the upper left (two circles with arrows pointing inward on #1 and out on #4) represents. It is an engine part. What is it?? (...was not as easy for me to figure outas you might guess).

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/17/2011 @ 7:14 PM *

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No one listens to turtle the subtle. I'm showing you a subtle trick. It is generic. Every move I make is generic once I send that post in. It is universal. It is one book speaks all books. Watch the OTTO cycle. This is the penultimate move. This says it all. This is the cat's meow, the paw print, the whisker licks.

When I watch the intake valve go down, I now watch, not my timing mark, but lets look at our intake cam lobe. Where is it sticking out? Go to the exhaust side of the cylinder you found compression on. Where is that exhaust cam lob sticking? In or out? Is it matching the intake side being out?

If you see or follow your penultimate move [know you are on the compression stroke] how? Rook, you have watched 2 strokes already:

1st Stroke:
As you saw or waited for the crank to come around, you were waiting for the first event of the 4-cycles to happen. The draw of air as the piston descends is called the intake stroke. That is watching the intake spring/bucket/valve, [that guy] compress the spring. At that peak or the lobe of the cam is pushing that bucket down for its full length, so as not to coil bind the spring. It is on that much of a ragged edge. Once that bucket stops moving, that air is done gone inside to fill that void or vacuum it created.

2nd Stroke:
What you are watching now with the intake spring, is to see that bucket start coming up. The cam lobe is coming around and it now points out. The subtle move says again, we do not need a timing mark. We need to see the compression stroke end up top with a chopstick stopping. So far, we can see two events stop in action, but the crank continues to move the process along twice again, but on the exhaust's open and closed strokes. Those are the other two.

3rd Stroke: The piston compressed the gas and all that air. That is about to heat up even more. The kinetic was one. The octane helps not to blow up with the kinetic. Once we time that spark, now we can light off the candle. That chemical reaction [expansion], sent the piston on the down stroke or the power stroke. It made the crank spin so hard, so fast, it can come around, push what it just exploded and send it on its way. That happened to be the next stroke.

4th Stroke: Well, here we are gain, the piston filled that void of the air, but more it is both being pushed out and moving on its own, being hot air as well. Well, time to begin to cause a suck on spring to come down, but more the cam lobe pushed it down. The void is about to begin it's process again. It never stops. The next piston is timed to fire off. There, you watch each cylinder fire off down the line. She fires in sequence; 1-2-4-3.

If you see the 1/2 split? Everything is now in half. 1 and 4 fire on the same spark. 2 and 3 fire where? Half of that spit is how you fire the other 2 cylinders.

Halves we got the mirror look see at our black dots? Flip?; see the same pattern, we take a piece of paper, cover the top and bottom side, take your pick. Now flip. We concentrate on 1 and 4 for cam lobes out. We are now going to follow book procedure. No more flipping around. This is going to bonk you in a few weeks down the road. For right now...

1 and 4 is our book position. How do we find top dead center compression on #4? We watch the penultimate what?

* Last updated by: Hub on 10/17/2011 @ 8:15 PM *

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<In ~ Ex> = Lobes out on the photo, we look down at the 4 dots, sit on the dots like a bike. We count 1-2-3-4 in cylinders now, we are at TDC #4 compression.

Each Black dot is a valve that can be measured being in that position of the cam lobes for a feeler gauge.
Each White dot is a valve that is in some sort of; pushing on a valve that is about to open; closing one. Do not set a feeler here. This is not the proper measuring point; you cannot measure here.

In> ~ <Ex = Lobes are found to be on the inside. This is more of one position of 8 valves to check, 8 you cannot; until you 360° to #4, or #1. Depends on where the crank sits and who is in position to be set at? Said another way... We could pick our base #1 as our penultimate starting point.

This way, we can now flip a 360 degree turn of the crank. Line up 1-4 one more time, we bang out the other 8 valve measurements. That is what those 16 dots are saying in the photo; being in the [> <] either/or [< >] positions.

* Last updated by: Hub on 10/17/2011 @ 8:38 PM *

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Ain't it fun getting all mad! You are learning the burning in the brain = No Fucups! I don't know why you are losing it. You nailed it with the assembly. You know how many times I had to pull cams just on the intake? Relax. This is routine. You want anal work... Relax... It's a hobby. Now you know when you go to a dealer, you are paying for some work here baby!

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Yeah Hubster, I was a litl peeved but looks to me as though this was on track all along.

Your first reply - I would go out and rotate away on the motor but not with the CCT out and the chain hooked on a bungy to maintain tension. No time to go doing the model engine spin now. Next time for sure.

<In ~ Ex> = Lobes out on the photo

Which of the 16 lobes? Lobes are what got me confused on this in the first place.

I was seeing the circles as the timing sprockets and the arrows as timing marks lining up with the top of the engine case. Hope that coincides with the lobes you are talking about. I guess it would if you mean the lobes on the far right behind the sprockets.

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Look at an egg's shape. Big bottom is where you are setting the feeler gauge, if we could point the narrow end up. Then, the narrow end is the cam's > arrow direction or the narrower end of the egg's shape. When you have the cams out again, look at the cam as looking at the X end would be looking down the tube of the cam. The Y is like a flute to play with the bumps, meaning, look at the length now.

Just look at one lobe, think egg. You see both sides by looking at the X to Y and that Z appears in 3 dimensions as you hold it. So no, the circles rep what shim you can feel for, period. That does seem like you are looking at the crank, but no, part of knowing that book is stuff like that that you should already know.

You already know the crank moves only once if you had a lawnmower engine. That single cylinder is high performance with a 4-valve head. Take one head, that is what it represents. The dome of the head. As if the head was on, but we look down at it, in an x-ray kind of drawing. Those 4 dots are for the intake and exhaust.

That is why we turn the engine twice. If this was a single engine, we would not need to rotate the engine again. That is why there is only one time to watch the intake make the penultimate move. But, we added another cylinder. So remember, we take a paper and cover the 2 other [center] cylinders on the screen, that is it! We are looking at a twin cylinder. We still have to set that other cylinder side. That means, turn the crank one more time to set the other cylinder bank.

Narrow it down to one cylinder in play. If #1 is all black, that means, set all valves on #1 cylinder.

As you watch the 2 blank dots you cannot

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OK, call the arrows cam lobe direction then. < > = lobes out : > < = lobes in. Easy enough.

Which of the 16 cams does the < > or the > < refer to? They alternate directions, of course. half would face in other half face out.

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Pretty simple looking, right? Gotta look at the book, go to page 2-23. Top right corner, that drawing says:

1. What cylinder am I on? I see black dots that represent a sealed cylinder chamber. The white reps, open air or valve open, or, an empty cylinder.
2. The half white, half black dots, these say that the black dots are in position to check clearances. The whites are in some stroke angle, meaning, the 1-2-4-3 cycle of the valves are in this position at any time sort of speak.
3. Event wise, the next cylinder will have all black dots, we are at TDC compression.
4. Black dots mean just that. TDC compression in #1 cylinder. I see the same IN< >EX position for that cylinder, I look from left to right, sitting on the page or bike.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________

You go back to my photo, see where I set my "<" position. Book says, begin to time the cams at the #1 TDC mark 1-4. The loophole trick I did, was simply mirror the drawing on the second position of the [bottom] drawing.

1. I was still on 1-4 timing mark.
2. What is the difference between setting the cam timing this way? Book wise, it is not procedure, but once you figure out positions? We have 3 book ways, 1 backyard mechanic way that says go fuck your book, we got the hook of the Rook!
A. Position #1 <lobes out>
B. Position #4 >lobes in< Not really the book way. But to see more of the engine as two entities. #1 and his side kick. #4 and his hanger on [his left side]. YOu always follow book. That usually starts at #1 cylinder so as not to get all confused as I am making it for you. This will sink in, more or less... You read it in a few years, you keep messing with the valve shim or pull the head off for some reason, you know the main position in any manual are: Lobes out #1 TDC. Then...
C. ... Count 30 pins - Page 5-19. This says, my cam's timing line will be flat across that punched slit in the cam sprocket, and the head's line, as your eyesight aims for one slit on the <in cam, is equally lined up we count 30 pins, then ex> will sit on that head line too.
D. Loophole! Find either <out> or >in< in the timing line up. Mark your 3 chain links at the cams and crank. There is your 30 pin count, but we is backyear yard any bike. Weed don't need no stink inn man you will pay you don't get this otto timed correctly.

* Last updated by: Hub on 10/18/2011 @ 8:03 AM *

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my money is on "the arrows in the diagram represent the cam lobe position of the In/Ex cams on the far right." That is Cylinder #4, Inlet cam-right and Exhaust cam right. Those are the cams right behind the camshaft sprockets.

ORIf I am right, diagram can just as easily be read as timing wheels, the timing marks and the top edge of the engine case. Either way you want to read it, far right lobes or sprockets, the drawing works. Best of all it coincides with the way this beotch looked when I checked the clearances. No screw ups this time, Hub.

you went and got me all rattled over nothing.

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All that is going to happen is you sitting on that bike, we are not done yet. You are going to sync the throttle bodies too. See how well timed that puppy idles? Don't look at me. You are the one twisting the hard parts. I'm just the software on line you are taking to. Like the service manual explains what you see and what the manual says, not me.

You said that looks like a timing pattern for crank to cam timing? I say, no, do you mean this is cam position for knowing what valve lash will go in and the ones that won't?

That section you are on? Which one? I am talking, section 5-(19); is cam to crank position.
Section 2-(23); that is valve lash position.

Imagine what I went thru reading one of these man you will pay you do not know that this part when here. Why? Only assembles one way. Half fits here. The other half fits there. It's almost running, I got this!

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That section you are on? Which one? I am talking, section 5-(19); is cam to crank position.

me too.

p 5-19 shows a illustration of the camshaft sprockets. This is the way my CSsprockets are set right now bcause I left my motor at #4 TDC after doing the second 8 shim adjustments (first 8 adjustments were done to #1 TDC valves). My CSsprockets have the IN mark [labeled C in the illustration] on the Inlet sprocket parallel to engine case and the Ex mark [labeled B in the illustration] on the exhaust sprocket parallel to the engine case. The marks are oriented to the outsides of the sprockets just like in the illustration. Cams directly behind sprockets point out also (like the timing marks I just described). the Only thing different is that the illustration is showing an 06-07 sprocket which has those cool lightening holes. Also, the In, Ex timing marks located more to the center of the sprocket are different from the 06. That is because I have an 08. They changed those inner marks for some reason. Outer marks are same as they were on the 06. Outer marks are the only ones we are concerned about for this.

Hub, this is really confusing trying to discuss THE BOOK because I can tell from your comments that you are looking at a 06 BOOK-----as I had been doing. The 2010 BOOK is updated. Trust me, mon frere, the illustrtions on 2-23 are dif in each edition. In the 2010, the valve lash illustrations occur on p 2-25. Damned if the arrows (representing cam lobe as you like to think of it OR timing mark, camshaft sprocket as I prefer to think of it) are not exactly the opposite. IDK Y the fork they did that. That is supposed to be a standardized icon for parts illustration is it not?? I don't see why they went and changed it--------unless it is just wrong in the 06 edition....which is pretty serious thing to get wrong IMO whether it is assumed the reader is well versed in motorcycle mechanics or not.

My CSsprocket/CChain timing IS exactly as it was when new. All put back together as it was.

Anyways, if you want a copy I could try to email you the 2010 edition. More pictures better explanations prolly fixed a few Japanese/English as a second language mistakes.

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/18/2011 @ 11:25 PM *

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Rook, trust me, I do not need a book to time an engine. Put it in front of me. I know generic. Rook, see that cam lobe sticking out at both end? #1 TDC? Don't look in the book. Visualize a lobe looking at the throttle body, a lobe looking at an exhaust, #1 Cylinder:

1st amigo says, Rook, got the book down? The first amigo says, I need to be at #1 piston TDC; I assemble ANY engine = Period!
2nd amigo says, I am the intake. I need to fill a void and close = Period!
3rd amigo says, I have to side with the intake so I am going to mirror that move, look at me, I am facing the exhaust = Period!

TDCompression is the penultimate position now. Location, location, location. Burn it in the building toolbox, just like the 3 on the side of the road buddies, we better know flat out, no if ants or butts.

You are looking at #4, not at TDC compression, but rather at TDC finishing a stroke. Firing sequence says; 1-2-4-3. Number 4 is spent, here comes TDC compression on #3. Either watch the cams turn, read your sequence and follow along, or go on line to some 4-stroke gif that is animated for the strokes; watch cam positions.

I'm going to take a cam, run the intake[lobe] to the outside, facing the throttle body or carb. Same goes with the exhaust [lobe]. Find that lobe, send it to the pipes. I know I am at TDC #1 cylinder. That is my penultimate move is tdc-1. I know there will be some hash mark or dot, something that says, 'line this cam up with this stationary split/imaginary line on the horizon. Catch that universal start with, end with #1 TDC any time you time an engine?

* Last updated by: Hub on 10/19/2011 @ 12:21 AM *

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Sounds like you are saying the cams point away from each other at #1 TDC. All engines the same. I still do not know what cams those pair are. The far right or the far left.

The far left cam lobes are on #1 cyl. When they point away from one another as we have been discussing, all valves are closed to maintain full compression. The exhaust valve is poised to open on the next 25% rotation of the Ex CShaft to release combustion gasses. Before IT can open, the intake valve will need to wait 75% of an In Cshaft rotation.

......sounds like end of the compression stroke to me.

....as long as the mysterious valves we are talking about, the ones that are supposed to be pointing =away from one another, are in fact on Cylinder #1. We can't assume that. Someone who knows has to tell us YES or NO.

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/19/2011 @ 12:53 AM *

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You're too funny, Rook. You need to follow the book. Do not ask anyone. You need to figure out that position so it is burned in your head... Lobes out #1 TDC do one of two things:

1. This is the penultimate position = Lobes out/on compression stroke on number 1 cylinder. Read the book. Or more, go to page 5-19 or the other book on line. Look at the cam lobes behind the sprockets. See the ----- outline? This shows the cam lobes out but all the way over to the #1 cylinder are the phantom lines behind the sprockets.
2. This says, I am going to set my crank at the 1-4 position. We know both pistons are at TDC. But to reassemble the cams? Look now at the sprockets. Look at the outside timing marks. BINGO! We need to ask anyone! That also says, set this at #1 TDC, we check 8 black dots.
3. This part is the combo you think in 3amigo so it loops in the absolute. Now, we can take the #1 TDCompression position and kill two birds. One is the timing for any bike = Period! Second, this is how you start checking 8 shim clearances is to keep it there and now check your 8 black dots. Third represents, you now turn the crank 360° and now, the #4 TDCompression is in position to check the remaining 8 shims you could not do with the crank at the #1 position, because why? #1 is for 8 shims, turn the crank once, the other 8 shims are ready to be inspected at the bucket and low side of the cam lobe where you can fit a feeler in.

We on page 5-19 yet? This is the timing chapter, not section 2, the maintenance chapter.

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Look at the cam lobes behind the sprockets. See the ----- outline? This shows the cam lobes out but all the way over to the #1

That whole last post was pure brilliance to a clueless newb!

I'm with ya all the way except for one thing. When my sprockets are positioned as they appear in the book, p5-19, marks out, the cam lobes on the far left (#1) are pointing in at one another. When I turn the motor 360 degrees so that the other timing marks line up facing in, that is when the lobes on cyl #1 (far left) point away from one another.

The cam outline in diagram on p 5-19 shows the position of the cams directly behind the sprockets (far right).

So my TDC#1 Looks opposite of your description looking at the sprockets. Maybe my sprockets are backward. The cams tell the truth and they show TDC on cyl #4 when the sprockets are positioned with marks out. The mark position on the sprockets mirrors the lobe position on the cams directly behind.

I was just looking right at my installed Cam shafts a few hours ago, Hub. That is how it is. Can't turn the motor, but I clearly have the sprockets positioned exactly as they appear in the diagram on 5-19. The cam lobes are positioned as they are drawn in the diagram at the far right. I am at cyl #4 TDC.

Are we agreeing on this enough yet?

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/19/2011 @ 11:09 AM *

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We agree. Now, do you agree we have the #1 cylinders with lobes out? Are we still timed no matter what? Generic Moves is you move, I move. It only assembles one way. Yes, my mistake on the 14 being that phantom line. But, if you had a bike in a basket, or a box full of parts, do you see the concept now? It is more like knowing this stuff before you open the book. We don't need no stinkin' books.

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Again, #1 cam lobes out [find] your timing marks. If it lines up on the horizontal on the outside, it has gotta 360 on the inside. Would you agree we could time the 14 by the book and the penultimate move with the TDCompression on the #1 piston too? Both 1 and 4 pistons are up equally. Should that not work? LOL, Rook, you are getting double drilled. It's going to make sense the more you stay on it. It's all gonna click down the road. You'll be thinking and it will start to follow in line. One part of the puzzle fits to the next one.

Anyone snows you about theory, you can walk the book sort of and question what you hear and what you can read in that FSM. Who makes the most senses?

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We agree. Now, do you agree we have the #1 cylinders with lobes out?

With that pic you posted above, with timing marks in? On my bike, the #1 cyl cam lobes are out! YES!!!! LOFL!!

But, if you had a bike in a basket, or a box full of parts, do you see the concept now?

I believe so. I get what will happen with the cams/lobes/lifters/valves/cylinder/stroke. #1 all valves must be closed on compression; exhaust will open next, cams turb clockwise and make it all happen.

Both 1 and 4 pistons are up equally. Should that not work?

IDK? Seems to me if #1 is at TDC with all valves closed on the compression stroke, doesn't matter if #4 is also at TDC. You would not want to check #4 at this time. The valves are all open on #4 when #1 is at TDCompression. That is why we need to turn the motor 360 degees to check the valves on #4 when the valves are closed.

Rook, you are getting double drilled. It's going to make sense the more you stay on it. It's all gonna click down the road. You'll be thinking and it will start to follow in line. One part of the puzzle fits to the next one.

That is how it goes. Beginners usually need concrete information before thinking more abstractly. We don't need abook if we have the backgriund knowledge......but the BGK is what I lack in the first place. Kind of a big catch 22. I don't have the knowledge so I need the book but the book requires that I have the knowledge. LOL. So that is where you come in, to fill the gaps between the book and the knowledge I don't have.

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/19/2011 @ 12:48 PM *

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BTW, did my camshaft cap wear test into the wee hours of the morn. Not nearly as neat and perfect as they make it look with that Plastigauge but I am satisfied. Will do it again next time camshafts come out. Will show pics later tonight.

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IDK? Seems to me if #1 is at TDC with all valves closed on the compression stroke, doesn't matter if #4 is also at TDC. You would not want to check #4 at this time. The valves are all open on #4 when #1 is at TDCompression. That is why we need to turn the motor 360 degees to check the valves on #4 when the valves are closed.

A+ There you go. You've got the concept.

You are better off with knowing the factory is so accurate, we are talking c-hairs. If you plasti-squish a rod bearing insert, it will make an imprint into the soft aluminum. I don't like that sort of mar to the part. So if you x an y the parts like, read the book and it says, 'rod A will match with insert B'; if the case and rod have these two letters or numbers that cross reference each other. Why measure? Haven't blown up an engine yet doing it that way. Just a though if you don't have the book. Then buy all means, get the plasti-check so you know a tight number like .00015 or .002" says the part is not so worn out if not a low miler. Good basket case. Crashed young and never repaired but an attempt. Then the sticker shock of the price to rebuild and off it goes in a box, later for sale; 20 years down the road.

* Last updated by: Hub on 10/19/2011 @ 2:48 PM *

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Got a question here. I notice when putting the camshafts back in, they fall into place in the head pretty close on the right by the Cshaft sprockets. Over to the left above Cylinder #4 the Cshaft sits up higher. The left is the side that needs to have the lifters pressed down more to seat the caps against the mating surfaces in the head.

Are the lifters higher over on the left or is it just that the Cam Chain is pulling the Cshaft Sprockets down on the right?

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No, it's how they begin to roll over the buckets. You are seeing how each spring is loaded and what toe of the cam is stabbing the bucket. Same as saying < > = Toes out. If the shoe fits, [wear it like a cam lobe].

Follow the toe stabbing. Follow one is not even close, it is rolling or that cam's toe is sticking out or in. See that spring to cam following... That action? That is why you have to get that thread started by hand on the caps. One cam lobe is going to hit next, and it might go; either way over the bucket. Which means, that is where you cock that cap more in the plain of the cap's other half. That being the head part.

Take your time and walk the cap and cam all straight in plain. Then, the cap and 4 bolts, well, the cam has no where to go now but to press down on the springs. Send them home, you're almost there.

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Wait a minute. Are you saying we have too tight a chain? Did I mention about that tensioner roll back and how much more chain you can get on the exhaust side? The roll back is like making the other side of the chain loose. You are moving the engine backwards [tensioner in palace all tight or a screwdriver with some push to bring the intake backwards some. This brings around more chain for the exhaust, IF we are having some chain not having enough slack say.

Other than that, if you have plenty of chain slack at the front so the exhaust cam goes down easier, it is normal to see that cam up in the air being cocked on a lobe with spring at full extension. Did that cover it?

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Take your time and walk the cap and cam all straight in plain. Then, the cap and 4 bolts, well, the cam has no where to go now but to press down on the springs. Send them home, you're almost there.

I have the caps off again. The Plastigauge was squashed and I am going out to measure and photo it. I was just wondering why the Cshafts were tilted up at the left. Just the lobes press down farther over that way, I see. Actually, the tilt works just fine because the shafts need to tilt to get the sprockets under that Cchain anyway.

Wait a minute. Are you saying we have too tight a chain?

Nope. Chain is slack. I have a bungy holding tension on the chain between the sprockets.

Did that cover it?

Yup. Just wondering why that shaft tilt was happening. Wondering if the tilt would be any different if the engine was at #1 TDC than it is now at #4 TDC. If the tilt was happening opposite so that the right was up and the left was down resting in the head, that might be real problem to get the sprockets under the chain.

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Nope. Because you installed with the timing marks out, mine, I did with timing marks in. Either way works. Plenty of chain slack.

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