OK here I go just to stir it up:

We talk about maps and who has and has not got a good one. Most everybody agrees that the dyno tune is the way to go but then will turn around and buy a map from Ivan or Brocks or another top name out there and claim greatness when all I see is it is a generic map for another bike that they tuned at their shop so why would that make their maps so great if we say not all of the same kind of bikes are alike for tuning because each engine may need a little more here or a little less there that the "generic tune".

The local tuners I do not know how they tune as in all out big numbers or to have some power and have a smoothe ride at the same time.

I guess what I am asking is what would make Ivans and Brocks maps so great if they are actually a generic map for a another bike they tuned?

Why would they be any better than a generic Jeffo Map?

Thanks -- Bobby

would make Ivans and Brocks maps so great if they are actually a generic map

Ivan, Brock & Many others have spent years learning their trade while perfecting their art on the Dyno, street and track at considerable cost.

All in a effort to make big power while keeping your on motor on the edge of safe. It's not to say that their map would be better than one made on a Dyno in your area at your elevation. It's like you said generic.

Why would they be any better than a generic Jeffo Map?

Made over the phone.

I guess what I am asking is what would make Ivans and Brocks maps so great if they are actually a generic map for a another bike they tuned?

Boy... you're asking for a novel here.......

I'll get to it as soon as I eat some dinner...

* Last updated by: Ivan on 6/29/2012 @ 6:30 PM *

^^^^ you have a captive audience Sir... most of us have liquid cashish!

Boy... you're asking for a novel here.......
I'll get to it as soon as I eat some dinner...

Ok, ok, I'll ask the big question ?????? Whatcha having 4 din din lol Sorry I had to lol.

Boy... you're asking for a novel here.......

Yep, I know you will tell it like it is.

This is not dissing on Ivan or anybody else but a question of a map made for your bike on the dyno and a generic map made for something close to what you are riding.

My point was generic verses actually dyno tuned. I will start out that I am a tru believer in Ivan's products from the beginning of the ZRX days when he did the 1200 jet kit. His products are on 3 of my ZRX's and my 2008 ZX14 so this is definitely not diss on Mr Ivan.

When I 1st put the PC5 on the 14 it came with 6 different generic maps for different set ups so you pick the closest to what you have and hope for the best. They were all better than map zero so how is one supposed to know if it is actually a good map. I don't know how you tell when the 14 goes stupid with any of them which means the arms and ass both get stretched.

When dealing with Jeffo I was asked a lot of questions and emailed a map the next evening. His was better than the ones I received with the PC5. We had a dyno dayz here at a local tuner that builds everything and loves turbo Busa's. Jeffos pulled 170 and after 17 runs the dyno guy got 175 and a one time spike at 178. His map was better on full twist with a decent AF reading while Jeffos was all over. The downfall is while Jeffos was all over on AF the HP made a nice incline plus Jeffos felt better where I play at - very seldom WOT which was what I asked for.

We have another shop with no dyno that believes in Brock maps and are always ordering them for their customers but they also push all of Brocks merchandise which they also install. I do not know and would not understand anyway how Brock or Ivan would tune for their sea level then guess what you need for your area thus then theirs become generic maps.

I have a Leo Vince full pipe on my 2008 with a PC5, TR8, adjustable pulse plate set at 2+ and Ivan block off plate set up. How does someone that tunes at a different sea level make the best map for my bike which is why I GOTS A TUNING QUESTION.

The 175 was with a stock cat gutted 2008 header with a right side slip on only.

Thanks -- Bobby

* Last updated by: lytnin on 6/30/2012 @ 2:45 PM *

I guess what I am asking is what would make Ivan’s and Brocks maps so great if they are actually a generic map for a another bike they tuned?

Well, I can only speak for myself here….

I am not of the belief that all bikes are different… this is proven to me with my jet kits from carb’ed bikes from back in the day. (there’s nothing black magic about standard production tolerances)

It was easy for some of the other kit makers back in the day to say that “all bikes are different” because it was easier to say this rather than keep a better control of the needles dimensions that weren’t the same from batch to batch….. all it took was a .0005” difference in the diameter of the needle (in the area that was used while the slide is down) to make the bike need to have the needle run a different clip position…. The same idea goes for the distance from the e-clip area to the first taper… a .025” difference will cause the needle to be adjusted to a different height.

Bobby, I know that you have installed many of my ZRX kits and they all run the same setting according to what mods have been done…. This is because my requirements of my machinist are to be accurate to .0001”….. With these tolerances, I never have to worry about having a “matched set”, and I don’t have to worry about people needing different settings 99% of the time.

A “generic map” is a web board term referring to a map that was made by someone for a particular bike that should be pretty close to what is actually needed….. This is where I get “lumped in” with the rest of everyone else… this is because people think that my test equipment is the same as everyone elses.

This is not the case for me… I do not suscribe to Dynojet’s Tuning Link, nor do I feel it is the best way to tune… Maybe I’m old school, but I feel that an old fashioned EGA is a much better tool to check exhaust gases with…. For sure it takes a lot longer, but the analyzer’s readings are much less affected by exhaust temperature, and dilution of the gas from exhaust resonance drawing in fresh air from the end of the pipe at lower rpms…. This is the type of stuff that makes wideband readings go to extremes and makes them go nuts…. Just from the very principles of how they work. The EGA is un-affected by temperature because it reads gas content through infra-red light.

I believe he reason that people get different maps for the same list of mods is because of thew nature of the wideband… you can go to the same dyno on 3 different days and get 3 different maps made…. This is why I don’t suscribe to the same stuff that everyone else does.
I believe the reason that it exists is to make it easier and faster for the dyno operator to make his adjustments…
(let the software automatically make it’s adjustments with the readings taken from the wideband)

If the wideband was located 6 inches out of the exhaust port, I would tend to believe it’s readings… But at the collector there is a 1000 degree difference and even more at part throttle…. Locating the sensor outside of the pipe and pumping the gas across it makes things very erratic and even more heat is lost. I know that these sensors have heaters, but this is only a poor band-aid. The only place that these sensors work well is upstream of a catalytic converter or in a turbo application where there is no resonance to make erratic readings.

Anyone who has seen one of my maps on the screen will tell you that the format is very different from one that was made with a wideband.

If you get a setup from us, you are getting a specific tuning program for a particular set of mods that will be difficult to improve upon because of the amount of time that I have put into it.
All my maps are the result of months of testing in a variety of weather conditions… If you like smooth and precise, you will like what I offer for the ZX14… the big hp #’s are easy to get… maintaining driveability is a lot more time consuming and much harder to do.

I hope this sheds some light into my take on tuning bikes,

Ivan

Hi Ivan, we know each has a method to their madness which includes the clueless like myself. I knew from the 1st time I used your jet kit in a 2001 REX and a test ride put me thru 1 1/2 front yards that you had it figured out. Why should I think any different now.

I thank you much for the explaining.

Thanks -- Bobby

Ivan how much would you charge me if I were to bring my 14 to you? I've got the CT duals!

Ivan how much would you charge me if I were to bring my 14 to you? I've got the CT duals!

I don't feel that you need to come to see me just to have your bike tuned well.... save all that gas money and time.

I would want your ECU and then when I ship it back to you, I will send you the PCV map... you would just set the open/close points in the PCV and you should be good to go.

Pricing over the phone please....

Ivan

I can verify that Ivan's maps are great... I think his map ran better than the custom map I had made for my 2007 ZX14... I kicked myself in the ass for pissing away money on a dyno tune. I'm sure he does not remember who I am but he did my 2003 ZX9R and my 2007 ZX14..... If he was doing the 14's when I got mine back in November, it would have an Ivan map on it also!

Lytnin, I ran one of Ivans maps on my 06 14 before I boosted it, I live at 5000ft up, the map was made at Ivans location which is close to sea level.....and it ran beyond awesome I've also ran a canned map on my 14 boosted that was made at sea level, I took it easy on it because I wasn't monitoring afr's, but it still ran great. Am running a canned map on my busa now and its running awesome as well. Just as fast or faster than similiarly modded dyno-tuned busa's.
Great mileage and awesome power/throttle response on both bikes.
Bike makers have used modern tech to make very consistent machines, plus they have sensors to adjust for air pressure/barometric changes/air temp etc so they adapt extremely well to changes in their environment. You can run a canned map like Brocks or Ivans and have a great running machine that will make 99% of riders happy. The 1% that races or needs every last bit of hp can get a dyno tune for peace of mind....although I've read multiple posts about guys getting their Brocks maps fine tuned on a dyno, and not getting any more hp out of them.
I do think if you install a canned map, and for whatever reason its not performing well, you prolly oughta hit the dyno tho

I would want your ECU and then when I ship it back to you, I will send you the PCV map... you would just set the open/close points in the PCV and you should be good to go.

I will give you a call to see what you can do with my 1st gen ECU. Thanks