I live in Colorado Springs, CO (just over 6000 ft) and ride a stock 09 zx14. I just moved up here and hate how much power the altitude robs! I was thinking of pulling the flies or using the resister trick for almost the same effect. What I want to know is since I live at such a high altitude and the bike is already running super rich, would pulling the flies be perfectly safe without buying a PCV or any other remapping?

Plan A; get a Power Commander and get a custom dyno tune for the altitude, pull the flies as part of the process. Plan B: get a PC, pull the flies, get a Jeffo map and he will provide you different setting for differnet altitudes.

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To answer your question, altitude does not affect what pulling the flies (or getting the secondary butterfly tables changed with a re-flash) affects.

Altitude messes with your A/F mixture, because the air pressure is less (or more if you are closer to sea level than your A/F tune is set for). Your A/F table in your ECU / piggy is tuned for your altitude you normally run at.

So mine would be for about 580 feet, while some in Colorado etc. it would set for a higher altitude.

This is why pulling the flies does not increase HP or Torque, but only gives you access to what you already have more quickly. Pulling the flies does not change the A/F table values.

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Thanks for the responses!

I'm still don't think I got what I was looking for though. Pulling the flies delivers much more air in the lower rpms where the flies would have been closed. This obviously leans out the air/fuel ratio at those rpms. I do not have a power commander or any other fuel mapping unit, just the stock fuel injection system.

My question is: Will pulling the secondary butterflies cause a dangerous lean condition at lower rpms without getting a power commander, or will the fact that the air is already so thin up here and the fact that stock bikes already run extremely rich (especially up here where the ECU only partially compensates the a/f mixture for altitude) make it perfectly safe to run flies out with no additional work?

Thanks in advance for your replies!

No, because pulling the flies will never make the bike more lean than it can handle.

All Kawasaki sportbikes are deliver running rich, anyway.

But your altitude is something you need to consider. The ECU can handle altitude changes, but having an A/F table based on a map made for your altitude and flies out will improve your throttle response, torque, and horsepower, so a piggy may be in order.

And I am never going to be a fan of pulling flies, when an ECU-flash by Guhl does it just as well and a whole bunch else, without neutering TC. And it gives you the ability to dump your piggy because Guhl can tailer your A/F and Ignition table to your needs.

I am lucky, I live an hour from Guhl, and sometime this summer I will ride my Concours 14 over to him, let him do 5 pulls or so on the dyno, and based on that, re-flash my ECU. The C14 flash opens the flies almost from the time you crack the throttle, and keeps them open until you roll off the throttle. And it changes the Ignition table to make as much HP and torque as is safe to make.

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My question is: Will pulling the secondary butterflies cause a dangerous lean condition at lower rpms without getting a power commander, or will the fact that the air is already so thin up here and the fact that stock bikes already run extremely rich

In the 06, 07 models it did cause a lean condition at 3800RPM. Newer models had faster fly opening so the condition was not as severe. Super Street bike ran the 06 model for 2 years with no power commander at all and all was fine.

All my bikes have had the flies removed. Today with Mr Guhl available there is better options but you have to pay to play.

Free Mod = Pull them.

This is why pulling the flies does not increase HP or Torque, but only gives you access to what you already have more quickly.

home, read Priv's slow, read it quick. No matter how slow or fast you read it, it is still saying the same thing, right?

I still don't think I got what I was looking for though.

That's why. You can't solve it with 'more air.' The rest does not make sense. So either you are right or the other person is wrong. One says same air only faster is the move into the chamber, and you are saying there is more air entering the chamber. So, now explain yourself so you have your side as the 'more air camp.'

Pulling the flies delivers much more air in the lower rpms where the flies would have been closed. This obviously leans out the air/fuel ratio at those rpms.

I am going to follow each rpm and see if that is true. So, sustained, did we lean out the engine with both throttles plates running at the same steady mph? Wasn't that the same air entering? Wasn't the same air entering, but since there is less air, more gas, the beauty of open loop acting like a carb going up a mountain.

What was pulled out of that carb jet @ the penultimate number was more air/less air? Smoke and chug up the hilless air? Same amount went in, just less of it are the molecules distances. So with that kind of same gas entering, we didn't make the jet holes bigger, did we? We turn the carb upside down at sea level or rocky mountain high, won't they pour out the same we take a solid now, turn the sand timer in the hour glass. We see the same amount coming out yet?

So who went in faster? Who went in with 'more what?'

In the 06, 07 models it did cause a lean condition at 3800RPM. Newer models had faster fly opening so the condition was not as severe.

When you remove the fliesubsay, did this lean out the bike? If a sub closes, it creates a vacuum. You snap the throttle closed, you richen on lift. Same vacuum created [almost] is that modulation on the intake air sensor you throttle up.

If you have an AFR meter, watch lift, watch WOT, they both run fat under heavy loads. Only one theory is right/correct/absofuckinglootly ass eye shitan breathe same air is the penultimate numberubbing it in your face. I'm just the messenger walking thru the shit I've been reading no matter wear out my welcome I go.

MORE AIR MY ASS!

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http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-altitude-pressure-d_462.html I am an AIR PRESSURE SENSOR. I can tell where we are altitude wise. When I fail as a sensor, I default to the 760mmHg/1 atm/1ATMO/1 absolute number no matter the abstract used.

So in the basics... Sheer theory. Look at the law of the chart. Look at the AFR(?) we X 6000ft and then Y is the AFR. So rich is my bitch is she has kennel cough up the ying-yang. And @ 500ft off of sea level, do we see our basic open loop AFReadings?

The X to Y is I can't explain the fundamentals any easier is this eye exam chart. We feestache?

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"In the 06, 07 models it did cause a lean condition at 3800RPM. Newer models had faster fly opening so the condition was not as severe"

When you remove the fliesubsay, did this lean out the bike?

Hub in our models we did lean it out,,, correct ? We let her have all the air she wanted, but we did so with out the the proper amount of fuel added to the area where she was choked off prior. Fuel added in map was our fix.

I still say you added a piggy lol

Hub in our models we did lean it out,,, correct ? We let her have all the air she wanted, but we did so with out the the proper amount of fuel added to the area where she was choked off prior. Fuel added in map was our fix.

I still say you added a piggy lol

The 2006, I ran zero air cleaner, sans the 2 K&N cans up front. It never bogged. It would wheelie if I gave it throttle. That means gas every rpm, not some air lag without gas to wrinkle my sphincter muscle w/out pig.

The 2008, I too ran the same setup, [subless], and this bike had the 330cc injectors, not the fatter 440's in the '06. So, leaner was meaner by 1 extra hp was that brochure stating that, remember?

The time I rode Dogo's setup, I knew my bike had no chance of beating that subtle change of pipe, pig and gearing. Truly a night and day difference.

I wanted to prove that fallacy that the subs changed nothing; which changes the IAP; which when subs removed; no air was about to lean the bike; which changed that hit to the IAP; which sent the load to feed the demand fatter is the load to it. See that move? So that meant it was as if the sub could stay [even] with the main plate. Because, I could not tell we had any lean spot at that dyno dip shown way back when. Not when the main is about to load the IAP and when it did, she was smacking into the 13:1 AFR's. Sounds fat to me? Never heard pre-ignition, nor detonation, sans being in the wrong gear a few times. And this was in extreme cases it would det during this condition. Plus, never ran premium.

And with that said: That's why the '08 never had a lick of a problem @ 220psi after 18K miles of the 'no fly zone?' I would swap out the throttle bodies I don't know how many times? Never used the pig too much at all, because I was chasing more lean in the end. Besides, the pig I had would wet the bottom. It had no way to shut off fuel under 2,000 rpm like the PC does. So... HA to that me adding piggy!

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So,,,what is happening in Hubs Lake-X these days ?

Hub has been prepping Mule-3 for the past few weeks. Back ordered parts are hanging me up. I should be on the road by the end of the week.

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Mule-3 for the past few weeks

hmmmmmm, Mule 3 ???? Secret ?

Lake X

Never heard pre-ignition, nor detonation, sans being in the wrong gear a few times. And this was in extreme cases it would det during this condition. Plus, never ran premium.

Hub what are you using to listen to det.
During early map work I could occaionally hear det externally with the lug holes (got straight off the throttle and load!)
Or are you listening electronically?

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No, grin,

The scenario was:
1. Steep incline
2. Too high a gear
3. Too open was the throttle
4. Too strong was the intake air sensor noting the load
5. Too slow was the timing to have the ignition curve reset to retard
6. Add those ideal conditions = Detonation!

Cars now come with a det sensor placed on the cylinder wall. The harmonic is felt, retard is applied to stop it. We have no det sensor on the bike. It's very common if the above situation is met. This is just one way of receiving a detonation event.

So no, I could hear it knock that slow an rpm, that slow a speed. I also ran home that day, pulled a plug, saw the piston dome have a perfect hole to machine the piston on a lathe. The detonation occurred right at that center divot. When I sent the visual tube down the plug hole, pressed the trigger, the LED light came on, I focused the tube's visual end: saw tiny bubbles of boiled [balls welded together] of piston material now sitting in that once machined tapered hole. Did it damage the compression with those tiny balls of aluminum blown out of that hole? No, not that I noticed.

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And yes, that was a sub-less throttle body; no air OEM cleaner; just the K&N pods set farther away from the velocity stack, say. And see how you could hear yours at the, 'lug hole?' And a 'lug hole' is, grin?

No secret, just an upgrade to beat the WATT4 out of the ABS and Skid-Vicious. It's going to be fun smoking the front tire, chunking the rear. I'll set the camera at the front/rear wheels and we shall see.
MuleX: http://s149.beta.photobucket.com/user/wazfst1tyme/media/abskskid_zps21d4cd36.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

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I was wondering if I should borrow one of my pals knock boxes, its a knock sensor bolted to an appropriate place on the engine, a cable to a battery powered amp and then an ear piece to hear the knock which you stick in your lug, not a new idea but we have used it on cars for a long time.......dont know if the engine will rev beyond its capabilities though.
I have heard on a number of different occaisions knock but I have known the reason for it, inferior fuel, high intake temp etc. That I have been able to hear very briefly through my helmet when not wearing ear plugs a small amount of det on a couple of rides. I suppose a look inside would do no harm........

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If you can find a glue called, 'amazing goop,' or mail away for it, you can set your sensor at any part of the lug, but the higher the better near the head. Heat off the engine won't hurt the glue. I've used it right at the head, so no problem at a lug. Too bad it hooks up to an ear plug and not short the ignition once it hears it.

The money it would take in parts and labor to make an inspection is better spent with a tube type scope. You need a head smaller than 10mm so it fits down the spark plug hole to look around. Mine can see the score marks on the wall, the piston melt, etc.

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