To clarify, I was always going to install the judder spring and washer but not replace with NEW, I was just going to clean and reuse my old ones. Doesn't matter now, I've ordered a new judder and washer (92145 & 92200) and will install according to the service manual.

I also ordered a single 2.9mm plate to substitute for one the 2.6mm plate in the number 9 position closest to the engine. The clutch pack in my bike will be completely new & fresh from one end to the other (judder included). The 92046 needle bearing is perfect and gall-free, as is the pressure plate. Those will be reused.

Street racing? Use it. Drag racing? Use them. A weekend ride and a sport ride kind of abuse? Stay stock. Has the clutch ever slipped?

Where have you been?? The whole point of digging into my 14R was a slipping clutch. Today when I measured the original steel plates I found the outer two steels under-size at 2.3mm each. My first photos in the OP show through the oil fill hole how skinny my clutch stack height was in reference to the tangs on the basket. Rooks was much fatter when viewed this way.

First you tell me to replace the judder spring and washer set with new ones in my 14R, then you say you'd run your bike with no judder at all. Interesting...

Also I don't know if you meant to copy/paste my list but like I said: The two outermost plates I measured at 2.3mm each were from my OLD WORN-OUT STOCK CLUTCH (the one that's been in the bike for 5,700 miles that I've just removed). I ordered ALL new plates, 9 steels all identical at 2.6mm for a total of 54.2mm stack height per the manual. Then you suggested using a 2.9mm steel for the innermost plate, so I ordered one of those too. All that stuff will be here in a week or so.

* Last updated by: Bradley427 on 4/7/2015 @ 9:13 PM *

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My 2014 with 395 miles.

Im new to uploading pics on here. So if it doesn't load I will fix it later.

The whole point of digging into my 14R was a slipping clutch.

Can I ask the kind of short service life this thing has @ 5k and change? My guess is a lot of heavy passenger/luggage type touring? I gave my nephew a ride and he's over 200 and that was working my clutch anytime I had to stop and start. I can only guess.

Today when I measured the original steel plates I found the outer two steels under-size at 2.3mm each.

The frictions are the given. The steels are just a rematch so that means your measured plates and the 2.9 make the 54.9. Adding more, meaning, .6 more mm running 8 of the 2.6'ers, it's just a matter of not having the clutch friction plate fall out of the clutch outer on full rod throw. That's how hair trigger I'd stack the plates... short of rattling out of the clutch outer, I push the pressure plate onto a stuck outside friction... see it?

... my clutch stack height was in reference to the tangs on the basket. Rooks was much fatter when viewed this way.

Someone mentioned that was not the proper way but guess what? That was looking way too deep and I am not going to assume who's is what bike... is where I've been.

First you tell me to replace the judder spring and washer set with new ones in my 14R, then you say you'd run your bike with no judder at all. Interesting...

There's a lot of things I have changed, tested and found no loss of any integrity to the design. I rather test on my bike than suggest you try it on yours and blame me? No, I suggest you stick to stock so I'm out of the loop. No harm me trying something I have yet to experiment with and can see no loss of clutch either way.

Back in the day those packs would chatter until they came up with that wave washer rivet setup. This spring looks like the same approach for customer satisfaction 'wahhhhhhaaaaaa, my bike makes funny noises,' so there they go adding more weight to quiet the lips of the customer is all that thing does.

* Last updated by: Hub on 4/7/2015 @ 10:33 PM *

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I didn't buy the bike new, it had about 1,500 miles on it when I bought it. The first owner could have abused the hell out of the clutch for all I know... It did have the ECU flashed by Guhl which I found interesting, but it was otherwise pretty much bone stock. Since I've owned it and added over 4k miles its service life has been ridden aggressively on the street. No full drag-strip launches, and no full trackdays, but pretty much everything else. It has been loaded down with gear plenty of times, ridden 2-up in city traffic in the scorching heat plenty of times (stop & start), top-speed runs (clutch slip occurs on OEM bikes at top speed so I've read), and finally throw a few burnouts in the pot and that makes a fun ZX14R soup if you ask me. I plan to take it drag racing this season also, so I want the clutch to be built tough-as-nails.

The steels are just a rematch so that means your measured plates and the 2.9 make the 54.9. Adding more, meaning, .6 more mm running 8 of the 2.6'ers

My old plates that I measured with a 2.9mm in the 9th position (set aside a 2.6mm) would only add up to 53.9mm overall, which is under the 54.2mm spec.

Plate 1 - 2.3mm (Outermost - closest to me)
Plate 2 - 2.3mm
Plate 3 - 2.6mm
Plate 4 - 2.6mm
Plate 5 - 2.6mm
Plate 6 - 2.6mm
Plate 7 - 2.6mm
Plate 8 - 2.6mm
Plate 9 - 2.9mm (Innermost - closest to engine)
[Frictions - 30.8mm]
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Total = 53.9mm

I want to avoid running any 2.3mm plates, and I definitely don't want to have TWO of them right next to each other in the outermost two positions of the clutch pack...that's worst case scenario and might have been what caused my slipping clutch in the first place. The service manual states that the 2.3mm and 2.9mm plates, if they MUST be used, should not used in the same clutch assembly, pick one or the other.....all remaining plates should be 2.6mm only.

..it's just a matter of not having the clutch friction plate fall out of the clutch outer on full rod throw. That's how hair trigger I'd stack the plates... short of rattling out of the clutch outer, I push the pressure plate onto a stuck outside friction... see it?

I do see what you mean, by stacking the plates too thick you could cause the outermost friction to pop out of the basket, then bad things would happen when you release the lever at the handlebar....the pressure plate tries to close the clutch pack but gets stuck on that friction.

I'm cool with running the judder spring and washer in there, whether it's really necessary or not.

* Last updated by: Bradley427 on 4/8/2015 @ 6:42 AM *

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The service manual states that the 2.3mm and 2.9mm plates, if they MUST be used, should not used in the same clutch assembly, pick one or the other.....all remaining plates should be 2.6mm only.

The book kind of says not to flash, use aftmrk parts, pull flies, etc. Book it or personal R&D it... Back to you making decisions and your bike.

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Here's my plan for once the parts come in:

1. Immediately submerge all clutch plates in Rotella T6 5W-40 to soak for 24hrs
2. Remove the entire clutch assembly from bike
3. Install the FactoryPro EVO shift star
4. Install the clutch hub/basket
5. Install the following clutch plates (sharp side of steels face away from engine, stamped text on frictions face into engine):
Plate 1 - 2.6mm
Plate 2 - 2.6mm
Plate 3 - 2.6mm
Plate 4 - 2.6mm
Plate 5 - 2.6mm
Plate 6 - 2.6mm
Plate 7 - 2.6mm
Plate 8 - 2.6mm
Plate 9 - 2.6mm
Friction- 30.8mm
Total = 54.2mm
6. Install new judder spring and washer between steels 8 & 9
7. Install Brocks heavy-duty springs & slipper-delete kit
8. Install new gasket for clutch cover, hold in place with thin film of silicone in 2 small spots
9. Install clutch cover, using Blue Loctite on bolt in the 3 o'clock position
10. Fill engine with 4.4qts of Rotella T6 5W-40 oil and start it up

*EDITED to include clarification on clutch plate orientation*
*EDITED again to make all steels 2.6mm, removing the 2.9mm steel from Plate 9*

* Last updated by: Bradley427 on 4/9/2015 @ 6:24 AM *

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Note:
Steels = Cuts point to you... Notice how if I stamp out a disc from sheet steel, the sheer is round, the flat is untampered with.

Frictions = Printed mark towards engine... Notice how I use aluminum sheet, stamp the disc, notice how the assembler sets the painted marks in; as if the sheer is to the inside; via how it was stamped out faces you is the cut side that is vaguely noticeable in deciphering who is sheer and who is flat? I'm assuming all the work is stamped/glue pads/paint code/enter clutch basket.

We are back to the hand analogy again. Lay palm against palm and press your fingers against the other. Turn the one hand over the top of the hand. Notice how the fingers move together, not a friction turned around against a flat to round is the analogy of the plates have memory and you are butting fingers against fingers opposing each memory, not all collapsing finger upon finger and so on. That's the whole point of running the plates in that one direction.

After all this you should have a good handle on the pack/inspect/theory/etc.

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Your bike was most likely at the strip before it got to you. I agree with everything in the thread so far except for the leaving the judder out. DO NOT delete the judder. This causes a harsh engagement zone during a very hard launch ( 1.49 60 ft at stock wheelbase) and will actually result in a "bucking" feel. Changing the stack height is the only way to move the engagement zone on the lever. I prefer the full factory stack height as it puts the clutch lever all the way on the bar and sets the bike into motion if the slightest gap is created between the bar and grip. I have the adjustment all the way in and the stack height at least at full recommended range. The 2.9mm plates can be subbed in as the friction plates wear to maintain the full stack height. That way your not chasing your engagement zone. Consistency is key. I can talk you through what it will take to be quick at stock wheelbase when you are ready.

Hub touched on it earlier and I will agree that the pickup tube will need to be changed after a full clutch pack meltdown. I drop my oil pan and slap a new pickup tube on about twice a year. Better safe than sorry with all that friction material floating around.

You think I should look into replacing the oil pickup tube on my bike right now as it sits? (I assume the photos help, but I can get the micrometer on the old frictions if necessary).

I ordered a full OEM clutch setup (all 2.6mm steels) but then based on Hubs suggestion I threw an extra 2.9mm steel onto my order as well. Should I start off with all 2.6mm plates and save the 2.9mm one for once they start to wear, or slap it in right away with the brocks springs/clutch mod?

Thanks for chiming in Mav, it might seem trivial to a guy like you, but it certainly helps assure me I'm not on the path to disaster here!

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Nah your fine with waiting until you toast another clutch pack on the track to replace the pickup tube. Go with all 2.6 plates and save that 2.9 for your first inspection. I'm running the full Brock's Slipper eliminator and spring set with the largest shims that he sent. Maximum pressure on the clutch pack. Mind your plate direction on install (sharp edges out as stated previously) and put it back together slowly. You've got this.

Plate 1 - 2.3mm (Outermost - closest to me)
Plate 2 - 2.3mm
Plate 3 - 2.6mm
Plate 4 - 2.6mm
Plate 5 - 2.6mm
Plate 6 - 2.6mm
Plate 7 - 2.6mm
Plate 8 - 2.6mm
Plate 9 - 2.6mm

The above says; I'm going to assume the clutch assembler was spot on with the QC vs book spec vs the steels you pulled. You run a full 2.6 with a 2.9 backing, we are this side of falling out is the fork ends was what we didn't want was my trying to explain the theory. I was more the hair trigger is this side of falling out the fork ends. I'm in a measure that by the time it wears in a few thou it sits deeper in the clutch outer eventually.

Plate 1 - 2.6mm (Outermost - closest to me)
Plate 2 - 2.6mm
Plate 3 - 2.6mm
Plate 4 - 2.6mm
Plate 5 - 2.6mm
Plate 6 - 2.6mm
Plate 7 - 2.6mm
Plate 8 - 2.6mm
Plate 9 - 2.9mm

The above says: I'm going to assume the rebuilt parts are stacked with this number is your rebuild. WOT this is coming down to is to buy the 2 extra 2.3's so you have the correct stack. Plus, you brought the best of the seasoned stack to bring with the fresh steels. At this point I think you are better off chasing the factory stack you pulled.

So the stack is going to stay the same as the factory found it. Notice the lever is engaged via a hair trigger off the hand grip we mess with thicker stacking jacking shitup. Notice the 'crying my bucking stack' no judder. Notice you see me chasing scored cam towers and lined piston skirts with judderashit leaving itself and the plate? Notice I need to shuthell up and speak book spec not take a man pill and sneak up on you clutch half out the grip motherfuckers.

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"a hair trigger off the hand grip we..." I meant, off the perch is the trigger... That was walking past your pits making comment... All in sport. I laughed.

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Nah your fine with waiting until you toast another clutch pack on the track to replace the pickup tube.

This is a racing discipline. Your bike, but my last pass, my last lap, I'm dumping hot oil right then and there. I get home I pull the sump and yank the pack. I don't let new oil start picking up more juddershit and this is called 'splash' is a lube; when the oil flies under the pistons is how those are lubed via the judder scores the skirts. Wait nothing; your skirts were fine.

Signed,

NOLTT

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I'm telling Bradley from experience that these bikes NEED the judder spring under HEAVY acceleration. I know who he will listen to.

WOT this is coming down to is to buy the 2 extra 2.3's so you have the correct stack. Plus, you brought the best of the seasoned stack to bring with the fresh steels. At this point I think you are better off chasing the factory stack you pulled.

I don't see where I would need to use any 2.3mm steels moving forward with this project. The old/stock clutch I pulled out had 2 of the suckers and they were the most burned up. They also contributed to the stack height being under spec (in addition to the worn frictions). You're right Maverick this bike had to have been bought and completely thrashed at the drag strip before I bought it...ah well, there's no way I could have known. Plus that means it was probably broken in with a heavy right wrist...it does make good power!

Also, if I already have all new frictions and steels coming, why would I want to mix the old 'seasoned' plates with my new ones? I'd rather have all new so I know where I'm standing. I did order a new judder spring and washer (92145 & 92200) and it’s going in, so the clutch will be ALL new from front to back.

Keep in mind I'm prepping the bike for a LSR Event (over 200mph hopefully in <1.5mi) and I'll be hitting the drag strip this summer as well. Aggressive street riding and heavily loaded high-speed touring in between. I want this clutch to be tough-as-nails.

I have the adjustment all the way in and the stack height at least at full recommended range

A clutch stack at maximum recommended height, which I should have using all 2.6mm steels, will allow the clutch to engage with the lever juuuust off the handlebar grip like Mav said. When you say you have the adjustment all the way in, are you referring to the little wheel on the clutch lever that sets the distance to the bar for comfortable use with all hand sizes? #1-#5 I think that wheel has on it...#5 being closest to the handlebar, #1 being as far out as possible.

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I don't see where I would need to use any 2.3mm steels moving forward with this project.

Remember I said the factory installed a book setting is the pack? They are not about to send out a less than factory posted book spec, right? The frictions are a given so when the physical stack happens, she dials back into the factory number. That's the original steels pointing that out is my take on the numbers it was packed with to meet spec not be under spec QC (quality controlled blueprinting formula).

The old/stock clutch I pulled out had 2 of the suckers and they were the most burned up. They also contributed to the stack height being under spec (in addition to the worn frictions).

Notice the spec is gone with the wear of the steels/frictions. If no wear, right back to 54.2.

53.52 - 54.5 is 1st gen. Look at 54.2 is the gen2; in the middle of the max 54.5 or just about. It says both gens use the same clutch plates, both can be dialed in 54.5 at the max number. Leave my 54.9 out of it for now.

Also, if I already have all new frictions and steels coming, why would I want to mix the old 'seasoned' plates with my new ones?

Lettuce go racing. How much lettuce are we throwing at the hobby? A pro racing budge goes like; toss the worn pack and throw in fresh for the next round, final round, etc. Hobbyist has what kind of budge? Say in the cheap seats. So your spares... If something starts slipping by the time the mile comes and you warmed up on the new pack at the strip. All of a sudden if you only could set the pack back tighter with more meat. Where on a sunday do you find a dealer open you now have a slipping clutch. Do I buy spare new and bring it or am I thinking I turn around and go home, if only I had a spare... any spare I would have finished in the money. Understand the spares mentality to racing? The budget constraint? The loophole? Like spare sprockets for the track. More parts to bring just in case race.

I'm telling Bradley from experience that these bikes NEED the judder spring under HEAVY acceleration. I know who he will listen to.

Took me manpill I go racing. Took me wiring up a foot kill switch. Took me one squeak out the basket was one release and who knows if I can stay out of that harmonic on the collapse and no noise... the rest is WOT @ no lift of throttle pipe, no pull of clutch lever, no judder mutters a word up is wink-wink LOL.

A clutch stack at maximum recommended height, which I should have using all 2.6mm steels, will allow the clutch to engage with the lever juuuust off the handlebar grip like Mav said.

I made my post correction about where we break clutch plate. Mav may have it reversed. You need to grasp the theory, you are walking it in the reverse. Think about this. When the clutch cable needed to be adjusted at the thumb wheel, we were losing clutch stack and the cable had to be brought away from the grip or we could not extend the rod to have full throw at the perch to grip, remember those days? That was not cable stretch. Like the bridge sags the cables stretched is BS = Clutch wear... Period!

The foot takes out the return spring tension. The stack is so far out there, one tiny yank at the lever breaks the plates is right there. Stack moves into the engine, I pull more lever to break plates, right? So I'm at the light and I'm this side of slapping dogs into the gear next to it, she is waiting. The hand has yet to pull the clutch lever. As soon as that light turns fandango, the lever hardly pulls in, breaks the plates, the gear plops in, the lever is back outhell is sneak up on you motherfuckers if I was only racing and prepping the bike for it.

When you say you have the adjustment all the way in, are you referring to the little wheel on the clutch lever that sets the distance to the bar for comfortable use

Right, the pack is so far out, the lever can be kissing the grip it's going to break loose just like that. We see the stack to sinking into the engine side yet? Keep thinking it out.

Get a lane! I swallowed me manpill and it put me foot to sleep. I'll eat your setups for breakfast of chump pee yawns. Nice clutch pack'inn switchew guys.

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Get a lane? Ha ha ha... That's the funniest thing I have heard you say yet Hub. I will give you 5 bike lengths and a head start to make this remotely close.

Mav, you young whip her snap her, the notorious PAzYearazzUP is Pay Up! I've use that for a banned name and played with the car boys and girl did I let her have it at that vette site. Maybe it was the psycho site I first heard that term. I just want a high speed cam you and I are at the tree. I'm going to outreflex your ass; run your own tree; in other words; where were you on the quick out the gate? That's the finish line is who moved first... race over. Don't think I can pink your ass? Show me the old farts winning purse on pinks. Never lose that cockyness, Mav. There's always someone faster than you is get your local ass on the road and be humbled.

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They are not about to send out a less than factory posted book spec, right? The frictions are a given so when the physical stack happens, she dials back into the factory number. That's the original steels pointing that out is my take on the numbers it was packed with to meet spec not be under spec

If it was over spec enough to need two 2.3mm steels to get it under maximum spec? By doing that they just went against their own rules by putting those two 2.3mm steels together side by side. It says right in the SM that if you MUST use a 2.3mm or 2.9mm plate, you cannot have more than one in a fully assembled pack. i.e. either replace a single standard 2.6 with a 2.3 OR 2.9 but never put two of those odd-sizes in one clutch pack. That’s how I understand it.

I will definitely be keeping the old parts for spares/backups. I just didn’t plan to mix-and-match old and new.

As for the adjustable wheel on the lever, I will be able to play with that once it’s all together and on the road to find what works the best with my left hand and the new clutch assembly. Hopefully I can get it to engage like you said, just off the handlebar. Combine that with the heavy-duty springs for maximum pressure on the plates once the lever is fully released at the handlebar.

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Hopefully this works.

By doing that they just went against their own rules by putting those two 2.3mm steels together side by side.

Page 6-17, vice my spare mainshaft in place. Spin my slipper. Too soon is slip, too late is lever pulse? See my freeplay number? I 2.9 up with a 2.3 I am out of spec in freeplay. Wink-wink, I do not need a slipper clutch. I deactivated my freeplay and no longer am handcuffed to the 2.9/2.3 I throw that out as a 'not needed.' I can even weigh my basket down I 2.9 up down the collapse wink wink... but too heavy and the theory... Got to see in between the lines of the book is how you read their...

Wink-wink I need a flywheel type effect because I just removed the stator/rotor. Here is my 2.9 filled stator total loss deep cycle no lead in the lightweight batteries tied as one big 12v worth of 1 mile plus a heavy clutch plate pack I go and whack year ass is wit.

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There's always someone faster than you is get your local ass on the road and be humbled.

I won't be humbled. Only driven to be quicker than before.

Close to 11k miles. I have no clue what mileage jetfix pack is at? Looks about the same.

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I took that picture a few days ago. 395 miles on the clock.

Jet

I don't know, pretty close between 300 miles and 10k?

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