'07 Engine: 1441cc
'09 Engine: 1441cc

I didn't follow this part.

Flies were removed long ago on the 2007 and I was running a related Jeffo map on my PCIII to safeguard against leaning.

I ran without stock air cleaner, no maps, no subs, gutted pipe on one side. Why did I not need a map and why did it still run like a mofo, instant grunt, no overheating, etc.? Because if I WOTTED the engine at idle, it follows the rpm faster than you riding the bike and at the WOT position running up the rpm a lot slower. So if you look at the engine as nothing more than a speed event happening sooner or quicker, the telemetry as already sent the input at the speed of light and the electronics already sent the proper demand of fuel. So as this huge air sucking on the vacuum sensors have moved faster than your hand, you just got sucked into the piggy program. The telemetry was there all the time to follow your throttle speed.

And for the very first time on this forum I am completely confused...

Romes Says: Just hand me the ECU and I will flash the '09 maps to, oh, you are not getting the ECU and throttle bodies. Never mind. Deconfuse one input.

Rook Says: The revised piston is still debatable. Technically, there is no debate. Is there a supplement that revised the compression values of the shop manual? End of debate. Deconfuse one more input.

NOLTT: Are we clear? PUT INN the engine, check the oil level, squeeze the water hoses as you fill the coolant, start the bike and ride it as is. Keep the Jeffo going, Keep the same, oh look, no ECU and throttle bodies came with the photo. Am I confused? No. Are you? You have no clue how simple this engine swap is and all you are doing is to filter out what I'm hearing is now you are seeing what?

I'd have the thing in and running already LOL

* Last updated by: Hub on 7/22/2014 @ 7:10 PM *

A Seen Your Moment, while I was getting old typing it out.

First Gen:
1352cc
1352cc

The R is the 1441 and it's exactly the same as if I said: I am installing a 1973 Z-1 engine into a 1974-75-76 Z-1 engine family frame.
I bought a 73-Z basket case and swapped that worn out 52,000 mile engine for a 1976-Z1 with 13,000 miles on the engine. I had a black case and a silver top end. I took the crank and swapped that too. Ran it as my daily driver for awhile.

Are WE on the Same PAGE yet?

Thanks, hag. I better change valves to values or you'll catch that too. And edited the numbers too. Keep an eye on me.

* Last updated by: Hub on 7/22/2014 @ 7:22 PM *

On your six, Hub... watching the smooth.

Why touch the stock ECU if the subs are removed? Why flash the ECU if the guy is looking to save money. '06 wheelies sooner than the '08. I rather backdate the ECU to first gen/subs out.

So engine is same across all years of Gen1 14. We have a green light on the engine.

The 07 ECU controls the engine in an 07 so it will do the same for any year Gen1 engine. We have a GO on the ECU.

...what about throttle bodies? We have an 07 ECU controlling 07 T-bodies so that works. If the 09 motor really is essentially the same as an 07, looks like it's ready for liftoff.

Hate to confuse the real problem with hypothetical but IF yannih was going with 09 T-bodies AND 09 motor, I think he'd have the same problem running an 07 ECU that Roman's buddy did. The 07 and 09 injectors are different. They probably spray fuel differently and need different mapping. but that's not a problem we need to think about.

Yanni, Does Rook make sense now? Are we on the same page as Rook? We've come full circle and land right back to what I've been saying all along. No confusion.

Well sort of, but I just can't get around

"The 07 and 09 injectors are different. They probably spray fuel differently and need different mapping."

That might be somebody else's engine swap problem but not yours. The injectors are a part of the throttle bodies. You have 07 throttle bodies so you have 07 injectors. The 07 ECU will give the same fuel to the injectors as it did before. Whatever engine you put in there should react the same as your factory installed motor.

Hi Romans, So the literal ECU unit hardware is the same but mapping on it is different.

Correct

Is the standard 2009 mapping available to update my 2007 ECU and can my mechanic do this?

Any one with The Woolich Flashing software can do this for you. ECU Edititor as well.

I know PC's are an option and I have one on my bike but that will need remapping as it has an old map for my old engine setup but I would like to get the ECU correct upfront as a base.

When you get sorted send me a pm on my home E-Mail. I will send you a map to suit your set up.

Sorry if my questions are a bit basic but I want to be across what is being done and make sure all is correct with this engine change as its costing a fair amount of money.

Never B sorry, it's how we learn, ask away.

The 07 T-bodies have 6 hole injectors and the 09 T-bodies have 8 holes. Is the t-body bore the same diameter between 07 and 09? Looks like he plans on sticking with the 07 throttle bodies with the 09 motor. The 07 T-bodies probably deliver fuel differently than 09 T-bodies would and thus require 07 mapping. Mapping is just a fuel amount program correlating to throttle opening/rpm/gear. AS far as mapping goes, he would be best to have a PC or flash on there anyway. With 2007 ECU and 2007 T-bodies and 09 motor, pull flies run a flies out map for an 07, hopefully the revised piston dome does not make much difference.

Wow Rook, Good memory. Also the angle of the injector was different in the 08 to 11. How much difference does this make ='s Roll the data logger, trust No One.

Why touch the stock ECU if the subs are removed? Why flash the ECU if the guy is looking to save money. '06 wheelies sooner than the '08. I rather backdate the ECU to first gen/subs out.

Most cases 06,07 made more power too, Now dems fighting words but true. Run away.

"And for the very first time on this forum I am completely confused..."

That's because I am not. I see Romes side of it, I see Rooks side of it, and when you mix and match what I read here? We are throwing flash/mix&match injectors/mix&math the ECU's/mix&matchJeffo/after mix and matchold on, just backup here.

Romes Says: Just hand me the ECU and I will flash the '09 maps to, oh, you are not getting the ECU and throttle bodies. Never mind. Deconfuse one input

Yep, Turtle has the floor. Engine does Not mean throttle bodies too. Romans should read more closely. My Bad.

Keep the Jeffo going, Keep the same, oh look, no ECU and throttle bodies came with the photo

Keep the jeffo going ??? Hub did you really say that ? throttle bodies came with the photo ??? what ??

Now my Brain hurts, sign me up as confused as well.

Well sort of, but I just can't get around

"The 07 and 09 injectors are different. They probably spray fuel differently and need different mapping

Every thing should be matched IMO. I can't remember the exact details but I know for sure injectors are of different size and color. Angle of injector was supposed to be different with more holes in the newer model.

Fact, it runs like shit if not matched. All ECU mapping all diff inside. Can post pictures of Exact diffs if you want but changes nothing.

The injectors are a part of the throttle bodies. You have 07 throttle bodies so you have 07 injectors. The 07 ECU will give the same fuel to the injectors as it did before. Whatever engine you put in there should react the same as your factory installed motor.

2nd back where Turtle had you. wow that was painfull lol

Since running the pc maps, changing cells and all that, the AFR still bangs safe in a huge AFR range. So no plug fouls with that map, it's close enough to keep the wallet where it is. That's what I meant.

Yanni showed the engine in the photo, 'this is ALL what I'm getting.' So I assumed no injectors or ECU, just an engine. That's the condensed version as in the long version... oh look, no injectors in the spigots, or an ECU on top of the head with the photo shot. This is all he is getting. So in the photo, I said, look, no throttle bodies or ECU as the photo shows. You read that line again, this is what it meant.

I walk out to the garage, pick up my '06 throttle bodies, I count 6 holes on one side of the circumference.
I think the spray moved to 5 holes on the circumference on the '08. Why?

'06 ~ 12 holes = 440cc size
'08 ~ 10 holes = 330cc size

'06 ~ Angle from 0°
'08 ~ Adds 15° aimed more into the port's center. Trivia stuff, right?

Every thing should be matched IMO.

It would seem that this would go a long way toward heading off possibly needing to tear the bike apart a second time to switch in matching parts if the 07/09 mix doesn't work. Get yerslf some 09 T-bodies to go with your 09 motor. Get Your ECU flashed to 09 or if it's not much of a price dif, get an 09 ECU. Then you have the 07 ECU to send in for flashing if you ever want to do that.

Yannih, I feel like I'm being YOU. I'm the guy listening to both sides of the story and piecing it together. Back and forth, back and foth...If it was my bike, I'd bite the bullet and pay for the 09 T-bodies and get the bike equipped with an ECU that is configured to an 09. Installing/removing and ECU and Throttle bodies is not that much work. Probably 4-5 hours if you are being careful. You'll have the T-bodies half removed when you take out the old engine, anyway.

You could try the 07 T-bodies with the 07 ECU but you will probably need to ride the bike for some time to really be sure it works right. If it doesn't, you'll need to go in again and switch T-bodies and ECU. I think I'd rather be sure and do it the safe way the first time. A used set of throttle bodies might cost you a couple hundred bucks. The ECU, you should get for a couple hundred. It's either your money or your time.

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/23/2014 @ 11:01 AM *

Okay.

So,

If the 09 engine does not come with 09 throttle bodies there is no change as Hub has been saying all along. I will be using a replacement engine that is for all intent purposes no different from my original with my 07 throttle bodies with flies removed that will still match my original 07 ECU and Jeffo map used on my PCIII.

However if the 09 engine comes with the 09 throttle bodies it's a different story. My 07 ECU will not match the changes made to the 09 engine/throttle bodies setup and will either need to be reflashed or replaced with an 09 ECU.

My confusion with all of the posts on this thread was I mistakenly always assumed the 09 throttle bodies were included and so just couldn't get my head around Hubs point of view...

So with the 2 pics of the 09 engine I added earlier, are 09 throttle bodies included or not as I just can't quite make that out?
And if I change the ECU to an 09, that means screwing around with changing keys as well or if I have the red master key they can reprogram?

* Last updated by: yannih on 7/23/2014 @ 2:28 PM *

If the 09 engine does not come with 09 throttle bodies there is no change as Hub has been saying all along.

I will be using a replacement engine that is for all intent purposes no different from my original with my 07

throttle bodies with flies removed that will still match my original 07 ECU and Jeffo map used on my PCIII.

However if the 09 engine comes with the 09 throttle bodies it's a different story.

My 07 ECU will not match the changes made to the 09 engine/throttle bodies setup and will either need to be reflashed or replaced with an 09 ECU.

My confusion with all of the posts on this thread was I mistakenly always assumed the 09 throttle bodies were included and so just couldn't get my head around Hubs point of view...

So with the 2 pics of the 09 engine I added earlier, are 09 throttle bodies included or not as I just can't quite make that out?

And if I change the ECU to an 09, that means screwing around with changing keys as well or if I have the red master key they can reprogram?

HOORAY.

I understood that!!!

I guess for the well informed it is all pretty straight forward but I struggled because of my incorrect assumption that the 09 throttle bodies would come with the replacement 09 motor and so couldn't comprehend why no change to the ECU was required.

And although I will not be changing the engines myself I wanted to understand what was going on and what would happen with this change as I don't want to rely on and be let down by yet another motorbike mechanic.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this discussion and helped me out on this one.

And Hub.
You are definitely okay...

It would seem that this would go a long way toward heading off possibly needing to tear the bike apart a second time to switch in matching parts if the 07/09 mix doesn't work.

Get yerslf some 09 T-bodies to go with your 09 motor.

Get Your ECU flashed to 09 or if it's not much of a price dif, get an 09 ECU.

If it was my bike, I'd bite the bullet and pay for the 09 T-bodies and get the bike equipped with an ECU that is configured to an 09.

You could try the 07 T-bodies with the 07 ECU but you will probably need to ride the bike for some time to really be sure it works right.

We know the clutch gears to crank is one massive part = Cry babies complaining about the noise or engineering chasing noise.
We know the pistons were changed or updated from the first year, because those were really knocking, scaring guess who?
We know the A/C cover was upgraded and other subtle parts along the years.
We know the shop manual did not bring out another book, but here is the engine family's book and it covers this run of model.
We know the parts is parts is grab a 2006 sensor and match it to the book, oh look it was a 2011 sensor I used and it worked. Why?

If it doesn't, you'll need to go in again and switch T-bodies and ECU.

I think I'd rather be sure and do it the safe way the first time.

A used set of throttle bodies might cost you a couple hundred bucks.

The ECU, you should get for a couple hundred. It's either your money or your time.

* Last updated by: Hub on 7/23/2014 @ 5:49 PM *

So with the 2 pics of the 09 engine I added earlier, are 09 throttle bodies included or not as I just can't quite make that out?

Your pics on page 1 show an engine without throttle bodies. The throttle bodies assy drops into the rubber pipes at the top rear of the engine (to the top right of the engine in your side view pic). All I see are the rubber holders with the clamp around them but no T-boddies are sticking out.

http://www.zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=62F83816-D56B-84E2-14E2834C9FFA4D60

However if the 09 engine comes with the 09 throttle bodies it's a different story. My 07 ECU will not match the changes made to the 09 engine/throttle bodies setup and will either need to be reflashed or replaced with an 09 ECU.

I'd still be more comfortable switching the T-bodies over to 09 and the ECU replaced with an 09 or flashed to 09. However, you could do that yourself after trying the 07 ECU and the 07 T-bodies. That would eliminate the shop labor charge.

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/23/2014 @ 5:57 PM *

So I now know Rooks preference.

Hub, if there was a choice, 2009 engine with 2009 throttle bodies and 2009 ECU
Or
2009 engine with 2007 throttle bodies with subs removed and 2007 ECU with PCIII and Jeffo map?

Jeffo map?

Ahhhhhhhhhh

Can I ask what happened to your first motor ?

Oh Man!
Now there is a question mark on the map I have been using?

I'm taking it from Romans last post that the Jeffo Map is not good.

So who's and what Map should I be using with the below kit on my bike assuming 09 engine and 07 throttle bodies and ECU.

I'm taking it from Romans last post that the Jeffo Map is not good.

Yannih the jeffo map has lots of history here. When Jeff first rolled onto the seen with this 50 dollar over the phone Dyno Map many jumped on board. Most enjoyed the crispness of the lean AFR. Some others had to have their bikes towed in for New Spark plugs as they were left stranded on the side of the road broken down.

Flame thrower threads began. It got a little heated around here when jeffo was mentioned. U know, those for the Map and those against. Same sort of way these Woolich Flash threads started out lol. Would appear to be Natural progression in the forum world. Must say this In Jeffo defense, he did make some updates but damage was done and he disappeared.

Now which over the phone map are you running ?

If you follow any of these "New Magic Pill" threads you will see I buy,try and test almost everything that comes down the pipe with regards to the ZX14. It is my hobby as I enjoy the search for "More Power Captain". This case with the Jeffo Map was no different.

What I learned:

I want you to know That Map on my bike data logged a 17 to 18 AFR up the middle. Once again I run all my own tests in the study of the science and like I said on "My Bike".

If you are looking at minus 25 in your pc3 map up the middle ='s same one. IMO don't run it.

This info is only meant to help not start a debate. I have no interest in any of that garbage just wanted to help give you coles notes of why I'm Not a fan.

Hope this helps, cheers

Oh Man! Now there is a question mark on the map I have been using?

So who's and what Map should I be using with the below kit on my bike assuming 09 engine and 07 throttle bodies and ECU.

Perfect answer is Make your own, with your set up, your fuel, your elevation with that days AR. Only true way to know ?

If that is not a option, I have all that you need and will only be to happy to give you all the maps you may need based on your set up.

So straight up.
Could this Map have been responsible for my current engine issue (maybe running way lean, etc)?

Hub, if there was a choice, 2009 engine with 2009 throttle bodies and 2009 ECU
Or
2009 engine with 2007 throttle bodies with subs removed and 2007 ECU with PCIII and Jeffo map?

My choice:
2009-E + 2007 ECU/T-body. Why?

Look at this confusion more like this. See how simple the two are. My rolling chassis is matched to the engine. That's said another way: My chassis has all the correct mounts, balance points, rake/trail/weight factor/correct brakes for said engine. Can we see how both frame and engine are inseparable think.

We apply the same to the ECU and throttle body. Why? Because this is the fuel meter to the injector's cc matching. Every year, or every few year jump, there are changes made to the bike's family run. A kawi brochure stated as I paraphrase, 'We have 1 extra HP ready for any bike about to come up against ours is here you go.'

So the combo is now:

2009 ECU has 1 more HP with a smaller injector size.
2007 ECU has 1 less HP with larger smiles per miles you like to wheelie without the subs in and a larger injector.

My combo is, yes, they moved the torque and you can feel the difference, but match to match we remove the subs, the 2006-7 threw the heavier lag on the more wheelie prone torque setting of the 2006-7. That kind of torque is out of the gate or out of the way [ready] I'm after.

I'm watching the progress of engine harmonics vs. vibration vs. noise vs. close your eyes, open your ears. Say the '09 is quieter, probably. So as Rook has pointed out, my thought is: my '06 14 was giving off this nasty knock and came next year was a brochure mentioning a piston improvement for a more quieter engine. All you are doing is moving up to a quieter set of pistons.
_________________________________________________________________
Jeffo was pre-pc for me. I knew a few here and there things, but when this tune went off the chart, which fouled plugs, that's when I questioned the approach? What approach? I had no clue? All I knew was the map fouled a plug and the tune was not on par at a certain X to Y setting against the other tune he was adjusting? Seat of the pants: I can't tell from a 13.2 to a 13.5 AFR. From a 13.0 to a sub 11 AFR? I can tell right off (accel mode). However, when the phone cells were being thrown at the map, I was figuring there can't be that huge of a range of a change, adding the accel feature, and here you go, a 12-13 AFR hot rod close enough range.

So to say I was clueless about the pc until recently. I'm reading my own AFR changes on one tune after the other. Stock AFR is at the 14 and change range and that is without PAIR and all stock. So for argument sake I'm going to make it simple:
10 AFRange = Jeffo Rich Map (for argu-sk)
12 AFRange = Hot Rod/Racing (f-ag-sk)
14 AFRange = Best of both worlds (real world)
16 AFRange = Best way to pass the gas stations as a touring package setting.
22 AFRange = Too Lean and cooks the engine like oxygen only: torches me piston skirts no gas to cool me off!!!

We are set at the best or say we hit on the middle range and there is no lack of performance, right? Clutch leak with all his heavy gear is getting 40 per on the 14-a [I'll assume]. So say we could run the pc with a 12-a range. The lower the number the richer. So if Jeffo pops in a cell and that 11-a computes to this ba11 as a running number? It's only a matter of time before those plugs foul, plus, you add the accel mode on top of it, it will extinguish the flame out, in other words, send the spark deeper down in the plug looking for a shorter path.

And when that occurred, NOLTT who had no clue, but knew enough of the tuning ranges in a carb situation. It just mimics the carb is all. Then engine is the same and did not change its environment think. So all I could do was dis the map apply, not necessarily the guy. He brought forth his concept and I explained the abstract in hubbish. And that's my story.

So as long as the Jeffo is not fouling your plugs, you like the way it runs, it could be close enough on the rich side or somewhere between 12 and 14a. It all comes down to:

1. Does it perform better than stock? Yes. Leave it alone.

2. Is the bike getting worse gas mileage or just a touch different on the rich side it still runs fine? Yes. Leave it alone.

3. If say you could run 2 maps and that would be your pc having a toggle switch on the hot side to turn off, you now run the OEM map in the ECU. You can tell which map feels better, you can now take advantage of map offers [here] so you can see if the Jeffo is going to be outperformed or you can't tell is it's close enough like I said....

... Only your AFR meter knows for sure. Done have one? Only your spark plug knows for sure.

So straight up.
Could this Map have been responsible for my current engine issue (maybe running way lean, etc)?

No.