Some wanted to know what I believe in. This article says it about as well as I could.

Mad

Lori Gallagher Witt
7 January
An open letter to friends and family who are/were shocked to discover I'm a liberal...

This is going to be VERY long, so: I'm a liberal, I've always been a liberal, but that doesn't mean what a lot of you apparently think it does.

Some of you suspected. Some of you were shocked. Many of you have known me for years, even the majority of my life. We either steadfastly avoided political topics, or I carefully steered conversations away from the more incendiary subjects in the name of keeping the peace. "I'm a liberal" isn't really something you broadcast in social circles where "the liberals" can't be said without wrinkling one's nose.

But then the 2016 election happened, and staying quiet wasn't an option anymore. Since then, I've received no shortage of emails and comments from people who were shocked, horrified, disappointed, disgusted, or otherwise displeased to realize I am *wrinkles nose* a liberal. Yep. I'm one of those bleeding heart commies who hates anyone who's white, straight, or conservative, and who wants the government to dictate everything you do while taking your money and giving it to people who don't work.

Or am I?

Let's break it down, shall we? Because quite frankly, I'm getting a little tired of being told what I believe and what I stand for. Spoiler alert: Not every liberal is the same, though the majority of liberals I know think along roughly these same lines.

1. I believe a country should take care of its weakest members. A country cannot call itself civilized when its children, disabled, sick, and elderly are neglected. Period.

2. I believe healthcare is a right, not a privilege. Somehow that's interpreted as "I believe Obamacare is the end-all, be-all." This is not the case. I'm fully aware that the ACA has problems, that a national healthcare system would require everyone to chip in, and that it's impossible to create one that is devoid of flaws, but I have yet to hear an argument against it that makes "let people die because they can't afford healthcare" a better alternative. I believe healthcare should be far cheaper than it is, and that everyone should have access to it. And no, I'm not opposed to paying higher taxes in the name of making that happen.

3. I believe education should be affordable and accessible to everyone. It doesn't necessarily have to be free (though it works in other countries so I'm mystified as to why it can't work in the US), but at the end of the day, there is no excuse for students graduating college saddled with five- or six-figure debt.

4. I don't believe your money should be taken from you and given to people who don't want to work. I have literally never encountered anyone who believes this. Ever. I just have a massive moral problem with a society where a handful of people can possess the majority of the wealth while there are people literally starving to death, freezing to death, or dying because they can't afford to go to the doctor. Fair wages, lower housing costs, universal healthcare, affordable education, and the wealthy actually paying their share would go a long way toward alleviating this. Somehow believing that makes me a communist.

5. I don't throw around "I'm willing to pay higher taxes" lightly. I'm self-employed, so I already pay a shitload of taxes. If I'm suggesting something that involves paying more, that means increasing my already eye-watering tax bill. I'm fine with paying my share as long as it's actually going to something besides lining corporate pockets or bombing other countries while Americans die without healthcare.

6. I believe companies should be required to pay their employees a decent, livable wage. Somehow this is always interpreted as me wanting burger flippers to be able to afford a penthouse apartment and a Mercedes. What it actually means is that no one should have to work three full-time jobs just to keep their head above water. Restaurant servers should not have to rely on tips, multi-billion dollar companies should not have employees on food stamps, workers shouldn't have to work themselves into the ground just to barely make ends meet, and minimum wage should be enough for someone to work 40 hours and live.

7. I am not anti-Christian. I have no desire to stop Christians from being Christians, to close churches, to ban the Bible, to forbid prayer in school, etc. (BTW, prayer in school is NOT illegal; *compulsory* prayer in school is - and should be - illegal) All I ask is that Christians recognize *my* right to live according to *my* beliefs. When I get pissed off that a politician is trying to legislate Scripture into law, I'm not "offended by Christianity" -- I'm offended that you're trying to force me to live by your religion's rules. You know how you get really upset at the thought of Muslims imposing Sharia on you? That's how I feel about Christians trying to impose biblical law on me. Be a Christian. Do your thing. Just don't force it on me or mine.

8. I don't believe LGBT people should have more rights than you. I just believe we should have the *same* rights as you.

9. I don't believe illegal immigrants should come to America and have the world at their feet, especially since THIS ISN'T WHAT THEY DO (spoiler: undocumented immigrants are ineligible for all those programs they're supposed to be abusing, and if they're "stealing" your job it's because your employer is hiring illegally.). I'm not opposed to deporting people who are here illegally, but I believe there are far more humane ways to handle undocumented immigration than our current practices (i.e., detaining children, splitting up families, ending DACA, etc).

10. I believe we should take in refugees, or at the very least not turn them away without due consideration. Turning thousands of people away because a terrorist might slip through is inhumane, especially when we consider what has happened historically to refugees who were turned away (see: MS St. Louis). If we're so opposed to taking in refugees, maybe we should consider not causing them to become refugees in the first place. Because we're fooling ourselves if we think that somewhere in the chain of events leading to these people becoming refugees, there isn't a line describing something the US did.

11. I don't believe the government should regulate everything, but since greed is such a driving force in our country, we NEED regulations to prevent cut corners, environmental destruction, tainted food/water, unsafe materials in consumable goods or medical equipment, etc. It's not that I want the government's hands in everything -- I just don't trust people trying to make money to ensure that their products/practices/etc are actually SAFE. Is the government devoid of shadiness? Of course not. But with those regulations in place, consumers have recourse if they're harmed and companies are liable for medical bills, environmental cleanup, etc. Just kind of seems like common sense when the alternative to government regulation is letting companies bring their bottom line into the equation.

12. I believe our current administration is fascist. Not because I dislike them or because I'm butthurt over an election, but because I've spent too many years reading and learning about the Third Reich to miss the similarities. Not because any administration I dislike must be Nazis, but because things are actually mirroring authoritarian and fascist regimes of the past.

13. I believe the systemic racism and misogyny in our society is much worse than many people think, and desperately needs to be addressed. Which means those with privilege -- white, straight, male, economic, etc -- need to start listening, even if you don't like what you're hearing, so we can start dismantling everything that's causing people to be marginalized.

14. I believe in so-called political correctness. Not because everyone is a delicate snowflake, but because as Maya Angelou put it, when we know better, we do better. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you're using, you now know better. So why not do better? How does it hurt you to NOT hurt another person? Your refusal to adjust your vocabulary in the name of not being an asshole kind of makes YOU the snowflake.

15. I believe in funding sustainable energy, including offering education to people currently working in coal or oil so they can change jobs. There are too many sustainable options available for us to continue with coal and oil. Sorry, billionaires. Maybe try investing in something else.

I think that about covers it. Bottom line is that I'm a liberal because I think we should take care of each other. That doesn't mean you should work 80 hours a week so your lazy neighbor can get all your money. It just means I don't believe there is any scenario in which preventable suffering is an acceptable outcome as long as money is saved.

So, I'm a liberal.

(c) 2018 Lori Gallagher Witt. Feel free to share, but please give me credit, and if you add or change anything, please note accordingly.

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Well...that person has some 'nice' ideas...but woefully ignorant of the facts.First thing struck me was her talking about 'free'.Then the schools..'free'.and so on.None of the services are free.The people doing it NEED to be paid.Honestly,I couldn't continue reading it all.Maybe later.'Free' stuff ISN'T free at all.Someone's paying for it.There is no 'free' healthcare.Pretty one-sided in her ideas.Nice she wants children and all to be helped,how about the unborn?

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 10/29/2018 @ 10:38 AM *

Regardless of where you sit I think there are points both unrealistic and worth considering in Mads post.

However immigration is a very complex and important issue, and one thing that never ever fails to really piss me off is the over simplistic view of

I believe we should take in refugees, or at the very least not turn them away without due consideration.

Sorry but as usual, just my 2 cents worth...

* Last updated by: yannih on 10/29/2018 @ 11:58 AM *

"Cant you see what it could lead to?Neighbours turning on neighbours,family turning on family.Dont think it could happen?Neither did the folks in north korea"...you forgot to mention virtually EVERY Middle East nation that's been under dictatorship.Free speech will get ya killed over there.

Bumpfart, I realize you are mentally challenged, but I listed the authors name. She said to freely share the article. Which is what I did. Do you even know what "plagiarism" means? You certainly don't know how to spell it.
As for the rest of you. You are entitled to your opinions. I have stated these are MY beliefs. You go ahead and believe whatever you want. Just because you are right wing doesn't mean you get to dictate what everyone else should think or do. Which a lot of you seem to forget.

Mad

I have stated these are MY beliefs.

Well not really mad.
What you have done is agree with someone else's beliefs and view points.
You haven't actually advised any individual beliefs of your own.

Mad, what’s your stance of guns?

"Just because you are right wing doesn't mean you get to dictate what everyone else should think or do"...why does this have to be a them or us deal?Right leaning,left leaning...it's all opinions.And any 'dictating' by someone is always subject to the receiver saying..."not today.Not interested".At least in America.Saying one's values and beliefs is not dictating.I haven't really read anyone's stuff here saying 'you must or else'...

I mean,really.It's just common sense.To enforce the existing laws and abide with what's laid out.If people can work,then they should if it's something they should be doing.People should pay into taxes.It keeps things running.Illegal immigrants should NOT be allowed in this country.Asylum seekers,that's something different.Pressing for a better trade deal...no brainer.Everyone wants lower prices.Building a wall?Why the hell not.It works.At least THIS one will.Supporting Democratic societies.Yes.Standing against terrorism...natch.Keeping one's word...beyond reproach,and the country definitely looks good in the eyes of the world.Helping the downtrodden.We do that...billions of dollars.Physical aid.You name it.PROTECTING this country above all else...we have a President doing just that.Did I miss anything?Mad says this is all 'right wing' stuff.Gotta say...it sounds like good compassionate leadership to me."right wing"?Whatever.And the MILLIONS here that live by this opinion.Daily.Unsung.But standing for what's right.

While some 'helplessly scream at the moon'...have ya ever heard such malarky.My God.Trump's BAD.Trump's BAD.Yada yada yada.F'n wake the hell up.He's doing his BEST to save this country in spite of those trying to tear it apart.If those are liberals,and Dems...well,that's how it is.Too bad for them I guess.Trump and the right aint givin up on things around here.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 10/29/2018 @ 8:42 PM *

The left leaning media and population has tried EVERY angle to keep this President and the momentum of good things happening FROM happening.Stupid sideline issues that have nothing to do with the direction this country needs to be on.And is on.You damn sure won't see our President OR his conservative populations 'screaming helplessly at the sky'...tell ya that.We have REAL solutions.There's something wrong I think with people NOT wanting real good solutions to problems.This country is full of people just like that.NOT wanting solutions.Just more drama.D R A M A.

I mean,really...who actually gives a shit about a Stormy Daniels deal?Anyone with half a brain can see it for what it is...diversion.Smearing.That's all these stories are.Keep people looking at the NOTHING BURGERS.Dumbest things I've ever heard.And THIS is what the 'left' and the Dems have going for em?WOW.They truly are in deep doo doo.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 10/29/2018 @ 8:56 PM *

Look at JFK's record on women.You think there was a massive public lynching for him?And Bill Clinton.To name a few.People ADORED those guys.The LEFT adored those guys.Talk about f'kd up...lol.The president isn't some saint.Never will be.No matter who's in there.So all this 'expected perfection' is REALLY stupid and asinine.The things that really matter are being worked out.The ones complaining just haven't had a hard enough time yet in their lives.Otherwise,they'd see the value in the policies and such that the Admin is trying to straighten out.Anyone that can sit down to a meal of their choosing and know about homelessness and such have NO business criticizing the President.They need to get off their ass and go buy someone a meal....the streets are full of people on hard times for whatever reason.

What's pretty upsetting is the sanctuary cities policies.Stopping illegal immigration helps EVERYONE.Money wise,job wise.I thought it was against federal law to simply disregard the law of the land by supporting illegals here...illegally.Then thwarting ICE in their attempts to catch these people and deport them.I think the President has been VERY lenient in regards to this issue.This can't be legal.These officials in these cities just deciding to let em stay when they're openly breaking the law.WTH?If it was me or you...we'd be gone.

1. I believe a country should take care of its weakest members. Lady, take them home with you then.

2. I believe healthcare is a right. Quit eating shit food. Not my problem man has ills and never took care of themselves. The only right is do whatever you like, no one gives a shit about your life anyway so that's about it about rights or the freedom is your choice.

3. I believe education should be affordable and accessible to everyone. Back to the basics, bitch. Read, write, math, science, civics. Maybe then Jay Leno asking people in the streets can't find a typical, hello?!

4.Fair wages, lower housing costs, universal healthcare, affordable education, and the wealthy actually paying their share would go a long way toward alleviating this. Somehow believing that makes me a communist. Duh! This is America, where opportunity still exits today, you, you... '5 year plan' mentality!

5. ...as long as it's actually going to something besides lining corporate pockets or bombing other countries while Americans die without healthcare. So you rather be bombed that kills many just so you can save a few? Incoming, BITCH!!!

6. What it actually means is that no one should have to work three full-time jobs just to keep their head above water. How many stories have immigrants come here, worked 3 jobs and became rich. If they can do it, hello?! Not my fault you can't handle money and are now in the streets. You blew those bucks not me.

7. Just don't force it on me or mine. This one's for you yanni. Don't get started on whackthink.

8. I don't believe LGBT people should have more rights than you. I just believe we should have the *same* rights as you. HDHG me britches. Half Dick Half Gash, wear half a dress and half jeans so you have all the rights you want. Oh, I see one with more rights coming my way. Have them crawl under a rock they start in with the 'some pigs are more equal than others.'

9. I believe there are far more humane ways to handle undocumented immigration than our current practices (i.e., detaining children, splitting up families, ending DACA, etc). How's the SYSTEM working out for you? Should have played the game or thin the herd and revolt in said countries. Place the US Constitution in place, maybe you'll have a chance this time around.

10. Because we're fooling ourselves if we think that somewhere in the chain of events leading to these people becoming refugees, there isn't a line describing something the US did. Bingo! Blame the US. Right there is an act of treason speak. AS IF a line is describing event after event and oh, it's your fault? As if you rather have one north korea copy in canada, mexico and on down? Who is fooling whom?

11. But with those regulations in place, consumers have recourse if they're harmed and companies are liable for medical bills, environmental cleanup, etc. Just kind of seems like common sense when the alternative to government regulation is letting companies bring their bottom line into the equation. What do you think the Constitution is? A working redress corporation. Just find a lawyer who is well rounded with the Constitution and reparation is yours.

12. I believe our current administration is fascist. The credibility of this woman has no clue what the meaning is. Show me evidence. Gates? Buffet? Big bucks right here and fascism is taking over Bill and Warren's assets? Two years in power and where is the manifesto, lady? Who thinks like dis?

13. I believe the systemic racism and misogyny in our society is much worse than many people think, and desperately needs to be addressed. Where is the 'system?' I mean, where is it installed? Oh, you mean the ignorance among us? Someone addressed that whole narrative and blew this same comment right out of the college auditorium. Made perfect sense and again, she does not see it.

14. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you're using, you now know better. No, you should know your first amendment better. The beauty of freedom of speech is that you have to tolerate the accuracy said another way, and if a rose is a rose?? Hurts, don't it! The thorn that is.

15. Sorry, billionaires. Maybe try investing in something else. Riiight... they should listen to you and take that risk you come up with. Maybe leave it up to them since you're no millionaire let alone made billions.

It just means I don't believe there is any scenario in which preventable suffering is an acceptable outcome as long as money is saved. Lady, I can't even get Kofla to see if he wants to save his money, but nooooo, you want to prevent suffering that has gone on since man raise a boner and knew where to put it.

"If we're so opposed to taking in refugees"...huh?REFUGEES...not people trying to get here illegally.And bypass the ones who are waiting and doing it right.I don't know of anyone opposed to taking in refugees.Long as they don't have a hidden agenda to harm US citizens.

bumpfart, I'll try one more time. Plagiarism is using someone else's word without crediting them. Can you at least understand that concept?
And I repeat, I never said that any of you had to agree with anything I said. So what are you all getting so god damn upset about ? If you are comfortable in your beliefs then good for you. Yannih, I agree I didn't write the article, but I stated it falls in line with things I believe.
I'm happy for all of you who have strong convictions, whatever they are.
And, finally, Nasty, I'm not opposed to guns. I bought a house out in the woods. I have a gun to deter bears and such. I see no need for having weapons who's only purpose is to kill humans as fast as possible. Military weapons in other words. I also believe that in too many cases , guns provide weak willed people who are inherently afraid of everything to be "brave". Used to be when guys got into a dispute they would yell or fist fight. Now it's way too easy to solve the problem with a gun. So, go ahead now and accuse me of being a lilly liver pansy. This will be my last statement on these matters.

Mad

1. I believe a country should take care of its weakest members. A country cannot call itself civilized when its children, disabled, sick, and elderly are neglected. Period.

Who should do this; the government or the people individually? How many children have you adopted? How often do you volunteer at assisted living facilities or in other ways to help those who need it. This IS NOT your belief if you are not ACTIVELY working to make a difference.

2. I believe healthcare is a right, not a privilege. Somehow that's interpreted as "I believe Obamacare is the end-all, be-all." This is not the case. I'm fully aware that the ACA has problems, that a national healthcare system would require everyone to chip in, and that it's impossible to create one that is devoid of flaws, but I have yet to hear an argument against it that makes "let people die because they can't afford healthcare" a better alternative. I believe healthcare should be far cheaper than it is, and that everyone should have access to it. And no, I'm not opposed to paying higher taxes in the name of making that happen.

Health care IS NOT free under any system. Someone has to pay for it. Why do you believe I should pay for yours or anyone else's? Obama's only plan was to placate a group of people who wanted someone else to pay their way by creating a system where a portion of the population pays for their own health care and the health care of others. Our constitution promises the right to the pursuit of happiness not happiness.
3. I believe education should be affordable and accessible to everyone. It doesn't necessarily have to be free (though it works in other countries so I'm mystified as to why it can't work in the US), but at the end of the day, there is no excuse for students graduating college saddled with five- or six-figure debt.

4. I don't believe your money should be taken from you and given to people who don't want to work. I have literally never encountered anyone who believes this. Ever. I just have a massive moral problem with a society where a handful of people can possess the majority of the wealth while there are people literally starving to death, freezing to death, or dying because they can't afford to go to the doctor. Fair wages, lower housing costs, universal healthcare, affordable education, and the wealthy actually paying their share would go a long way toward alleviating this. Somehow believing that makes me a communist.

Simple. Transition to a flat tax. Everyone would pay their fair share. It wouldn't change any of your perceived needs but it would be fair.

5. I don't throw around "I'm willing to pay higher taxes" lightly. I'm self-employed, so I already pay a shitload of taxes. If I'm suggesting something that involves paying more, that means increasing my already eye-watering tax bill. I'm fine with paying my share as long as it's actually going to something besides lining corporate pockets or bombing other countries while Americans die without healthcare.

I'm all for bombing other countries so Americans have the freedom to pursue all the America offers.

6. I believe companies should be required to pay their employees a decent, livable wage. Somehow this is always interpreted as me wanting burger flippers to be able to afford a penthouse apartment and a Mercedes. What it actually means is that no one should have to work three full-time jobs just to keep their head above water. Restaurant servers should not have to rely on tips, multi-billion dollar companies should not have employees on food stamps, workers shouldn't have to work themselves into the ground just to barely make ends meet, and minimum wage should be enough for someone to work 40 hours and live.

We are all free to chose a profession that provides the standard of living we desire to have. We are all free be self-employed. The truth is that from the beginning of time no one working for any employer has ever made a dime if the employer was not making at least more than two dimes. No employer is going to hire someone and pay him equal to what the employer is making. Employers hire more employees in an effort to expand the business so the employer can increase earnings. That's the way of the world. If you don't like it check out.

7. I am not anti-Christian. I have no desire to stop Christians from being Christians, to close churches, to ban the Bible, to forbid prayer in school, etc. (BTW, prayer in school is NOT illegal; *compulsory* prayer in school is - and should be - illegal) All I ask is that Christians recognize *my* right to live according to *my* beliefs. When I get pissed off that a politician is trying to legislate Scripture into law, I'm not "offended by Christianity" -- I'm offended that you're trying to force me to live by your religion's rules. You know how you get really upset at the thought of Muslims imposing Sharia on you? That's how I feel about Christians trying to impose biblical law on me. Be a Christian. Do your thing. Just don't force it on me or mine.

And if your beliefs include murder or rape as acceptable???? You can deny God's existence if you wish, but that does not mean He does not exist; it just means you deny it.

8. I don't believe LGBT people should have more rights than you. I just believe we should have the *same* rights as you.

You DO!!! You have the right to elect representatives to push your agenda (beliefs) forward and I have the right to elect representatives who will push my beliefs, which include the belief that LGBT marriages should not be recognized, forward. Our laws are created based on democracy. I accept that; why don't liberals?

9. I don't believe illegal immigrants should come to America and have the world at their feet, especially since THIS ISN'T WHAT THEY DO (spoiler: undocumented immigrants are ineligible for all those programs they're supposed to be abusing, and if they're "stealing" your job it's because your employer is hiring illegally.). I'm not opposed to deporting people who are here illegally, but I believe there are far more humane ways to handle undocumented immigration than our current practices (i.e., detaining children, splitting up families, ending DACA, etc).

First, families were split up to protect children from rape. Deport and allow them to apply legally. Perfectly fair. When you were in school did you ever have a teacher ask you to repeat something because you didn't do it right the first time???

10. I believe we should take in refugees, or at the very least not turn them away without due consideration. Turning thousands of people away because a terrorist might slip through is inhumane, especially when we consider what has happened historically to refugees who were turned away (see: MS St. Louis). If we're so opposed to taking in refugees, maybe we should consider not causing them to become refugees in the first place. Because we're fooling ourselves if we think that somewhere in the chain of events leading to these people becoming refugees, there isn't a line describing something the US did.

How many have you taken in. Please tell me their story and how it is going for you in your home. I would love to hear your story; I'm sure it's amazing.

11. I don't believe the government should regulate everything, but since greed is such a driving force in our country, we NEED regulations to prevent cut corners, environmental destruction, tainted food/water, unsafe materials in consumable goods or medical equipment, etc. It's not that I want the government's hands in everything -- I just don't trust people trying to make money to ensure that their products/practices/etc are actually SAFE. Is the government devoid of shadiness? Of course not. But with those regulations in place, consumers have recourse if they're harmed and companies are liable for medical bills, environmental cleanup, etc. Just kind of seems like common sense when the alternative to government regulation is letting companies bring their bottom line into the equation.

Too much regulation. Period

12. I believe our current administration is fascist. Not because I dislike them or because I'm butthurt over an election, but because I've spent too many years reading and learning about the Third Reich to miss the similarities. Not because any administration I dislike must be Nazis, but because things are actually mirroring authoritarian and fascist regimes of the past.

And I believe Obama was a terrorist sympathizer. So far the "fascist" has done more good for the country in two years than Obama did in eight.

13. I believe the systemic racism and misogyny in our society is much worse than many people think, and desperately needs to be addressed. Which means those with privilege -- white, straight, male, economic, etc -- need to start listening, even if you don't like what you're hearing, so we can start dismantling everything that's causing people to be marginalized.

14. I believe in so-called political correctness. Not because everyone is a delicate snowflake, but because as Maya Angelou put it, when we know better, we do better. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you're using, you now know better. So why not do better? How does it hurt you to NOT hurt another person? Your refusal to adjust your vocabulary in the name of not being an asshole kind of makes YOU the snowflake.

I believe in treating people with respect. Tearing someone a new asshole for the slightest misstep in the way they describe someone else is worse than the misstep. It shows an extreme self-centeredness.

15. I believe in funding sustainable energy, including offering education to people currently working in coal or oil so they can change jobs. There are too many sustainable options available for us to continue with coal and oil. Sorry, billionaires. Maybe try investing in something else.

Mad, I’m really not into name calling.

Here’s my stance on firearms. I don’t believe guns should be in the hands of everyone. There are plenty of cases to support this. Mandatory thorough background checks for violence and mental health should remain mandatory for all gun related purchases. This should include private sales and gun shows.

That said, once that has been done you should be allowed to purchase anything you want including class 3 weapons and not just the inflated priced versions made before 1986. If you are of sound mind and moral character then I don’t give a solid damn what you have in the gun safe.

Here's my stance on gun control. "No law shall abridge." There are no subsections to this right to bare arms. It's to protect the people from the gov... Period. So when the british broke down your door, hello? So when donny and his brown shirts show up at your door, hello? You need a permit? That is unconstitutional right there. Look up the word, abridge and memorize it you fucking whackjob libs!

And I'm not pointing fingers at anyone on this site, it's just one of those universal subjects the usually pops up, someone goes off the deep end in a society. I rather save a right than save a life? Get it ass of the hole bunch of you?

So Hub; just to confirm, you believe anyone should be able to own any gun no matter what their mental health is or violent background?

Well Mad, you and I haven't always seen eye to eye 100% on everything but I'm going to get into the trench and take the hits with you on this one because we both already know it's coming.

I see no need for having weapons who's only purpose is to kill humans as fast as possible. Military weapons in other words. I also believe that in too many cases , guns provide weak willed people who are inherently afraid of everything to be "brave". Used to be when guys got into a dispute they would yell or fist fight. Now it's way too easy to solve the problem with a gun.

What possible reason is there for a civilian to own a military grade weapon?
Hub, you want the people to protect themselves from a tyranical Government? Nice sentiment, and that was all fine when both the government and the people had only muscats for weapons, but you know the government now have tanks, F-22 Raptors and nukes?
You want to protect yourselves? Okay. But why does it take a fully automatic military weapon to do so?
The second amendment gives you the right to bear arms and many use that as their catch cry and be all / end all on the matter.
Fair enough. But where does it stop? Because by that rational, ultimately it must be fine to have every citizen walking down the street with a legal military automatic weapon slung over their shoulder? I mean protection is required everywhere and not just in the home right?
Is that the place you really want for your children?
I am not trying to change anyones mind as I know that is impossible and only presenting my points and opinions but ask yourself two honest and simple questions.
1. Take all the gun related deaths in the US in the past and ongoing, ranging from mass shootings to the everyday occurrence of accidents and arguments ending in a shooting death. Do you think this number is more or less than people who have been saved by having protected themselves or others with firearms?
2. Putting your beliefs and opinions aside for one moment, how many have pointlessly died in the US because of the related relaxed gun laws, and is it justified?
I already know the answer to both these questions coming from Australia and seeing the other side of gun law.

Even though this is only a fraction of my thoughts on the matter I know there is a firestorm coming from the above.
It's okay.
But we all have our opinions on the matter and its also where your first amendment trumps (pardon the pun) the second...

* Last updated by: yannih on 10/30/2018 @ 12:12 PM *

Take the guns...only criminals will have em.This aint the 'muscat' days.Having an armed citizenry is a good thing.You gonna ban cars?Cause some people drive irresponsibly?Guns are a fact of living.Maybe not in Tahiti...but most other places.Better to have a weapon than not when ya need it for some yahoo.And did I mention the Govt having to think twice before some sort of takeover?Those guys that wrote the bill of rights KNEW what they were talking about.People are people.

"how many have pointlessly died in the US because of the related relaxed gun laws, and is it justified?"...which 'relaxed' gun laws are you referring to Yanman?Criminals don't follow the rules.Law abiding and responsible(mostly)citizens do."military Grade Weapons"...they're RIFLES fer God's sake.Mainly used for hunting and target shooting.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 10/30/2018 @ 12:19 PM *

You gonna ban cars?Cause some people drive irresponsibly?

Why do we need 200 hp motorcycles?A 75 hp machine will do the same and not be as dangerous?No difference other than someone thinks we dont need it,but we know the difference dont we.

Come on lads.
Even I know you can do way better than those 2 extremely poor analogies on the subject...

I own guns for a multitude of reasons. I have certain guns for hunting, certain guns for everyday carry, certain guns for target shooting (long and short range)and lastly, certain guns that I have for multiple purposes with fun being one of those.

I kind of like my AR’s to owning a ZX-14. Sure you can ride a cruiser and still be on two wheels but to step up the fun factor..... well you get the point. The constitution grants me the pursuit of happiness so I’m always pursuing my next gun purchase because they make me happy.

The constitution grants me the pursuit of happiness so I’m always pursuing my next gun purchase because they make me happy.

Nasty, at what cost is your happiness coming at?
We are talking peoples lives here.

But I do appreciate your honesty.
"Guns make me happy".

* Last updated by: yannih on 10/30/2018 @ 12:27 PM *