All reviews and feedback i have read for replacing stock break lines with stainless steel upgrades have all been very positive.
"you will definitely notice the difference of directness due to nil expansion of the stock lines".
And as my bike is an 07, I thought it would definitely benefit from replacing 7 year old rubber brake lines...
So I changed to the Hel brand.

Problem is after having this done I haven't noticed the expected improvement.

As a matter of fact I'd go as far to say its a bit worse!
Kind of squishy and not that really direct braking bite.

I took the bike back to my guys who installed it and they checked for air in the system.
None.
They cleaned the front disks incase some brake fluid had seeped onto them.
Slighty better but certainly not what I was looking for or expecting.
(should pads be replaced if contaminated by brake oil?)

Pretty much all other mods on my bike have had the desired and expected improvement.
This brake line change has been a disappointment.

Any ideas?

* Last updated by: yannih on 1/1/2015 @ 2:33 PM *

Either there is still air in there, or they contaminated your brakes. I replaced my rear hose with a SS one after a vandal cut my stocker. I don't notice a big improvement, but it's no worse.
If it got a little better after they cleaned them up, you must still have contamination, or air...
You may have glazed your pads if there was contamination, and they'll clear up with some miles.

Quit letting people work on your bike. They don't care as much as you do.

Jimmy, never a truer word spoken!

I do what ever work I can where I feel confident but never when I am unsure of something.
Especially when it comes to vital aspects like brakes.

When I work on my bike, I know it is right and all is exactly as I want it.
When others work on my bike there is almost always something I am disappointed with.

I would make the worlds best and worst bike mechanic.
The job would ALWAYS be done 100% correctly without any direct or sideline issues but it would take me 10 times longer than most to complete as I have been known to take apart and reinstall the simplest requirement 2-3 times because I am not totally satisfied with the result...

* Last updated by: yannih on 1/1/2015 @ 2:20 PM *

It takes me hours to just change oil on my vehicles, but like you said, it has to be just right.

Yannih sorry you're having trouble. Could be a variety of differences, such as ID of the hoses might also be different. From a numbers perspective, let's say your stock lines expanded 5% and your new lines expand only 2% (under pressure) it's not much of a difference to notice. Back in the day my friend put braided lines on his VF1000F and F2 track bike and quite honestly to me there wasn't much of a difference, but that was just taking them for a spin. Maybe the difference becomes more pronounced closer to the edge of the performance spectrum.

Problem is after having this done I haven't noticed the expected improvement.
As a matter of fact I'd go as far to say its a bit worse!
Kind of squishy and not that really direct braking bite.

I replaced my rear hose with a SS one after a vandal cut my stocker. I don't notice a big improvement, but it's no worse.

I consider aftermarket lines an appearance mod and I think 100% kevlar with no braided steel are a great choice. Those they will actually save a little weight and look nice, too.

Quit letting people work on your bike. They don't care as much as you do.

I would make the worlds best and worst bike mechanic.
The job would ALWAYS be done 100% correctly without any direct or sideline issues but it would take me 10 times longer than most to complete as I have been known to take apart and reinstall the simplest requirement 2-3 times because I am not totally satisfied with the result..

It takes me hours to just change oil on my vehicles, but like you said, it has to be just right.

Set aside time to do bike work and don't plan to ride while it's being done.

If you bleed the master cylinders and calipers, it would be very doubtful that there is air in there. It might be the brake fluid had some condensation in it if they used a bottle that was opened some time ago. Water might not react to pressure the same as brake fluid does. You could drain the system and refill it to rule that out. I have used fluid from bottles opened a year ago. Not a good practice but I never noticed a braking problem from it.

I have a feeling this might be contaminated pads. I haven't heard of anyone complaining about bad lines. This is the first time I've heard of HEL lines, though. ...I don't see how brand new lines would be bad as long as they don't leak. They couldn't possibly expand more than the OEM rubber lines...IDT?

* Last updated by: Rook on 1/1/2015 @ 4:43 PM *

Maybe install a set of these, they make it very easy to get every bit of air out. It would seem impossible that you would have less performance from steel lines. I wonder if they used the correct fluid?

Hi guys and thanks to all.
Looks like a change to new pads.
Disappointing as brake fluid was definitely on the disks.
This from professionals???

And I agree with Rook that this upgrade did have an aspect of appearance for me.
But worse performance???

We'll see how the new pads go.

Thanks wfozx14.

Looks very interesting.
Never seen one of those before.
And they work?

They work amazingly well. I have them on my brakes and clutch. I bought them sportbiketrackgear.com . They have a video on there site that shows how they work.

Check valve. Not needed, but some more bling.

Just did a quick search and found that water will not necessarily decrease brake pressure but it does lower the boiling point of the fluid and it prolly is not the best thing to have around steel parts.

If it's just fluid spills on the pads, I think that will wear away. It might cause the pads to glaze first though. You could always try a few quick scrapes across the sidewalk to unglaze them.

yannih, unfortunate you got fluid on your pads, it soaks in and pretty much ruins the pads. Good thing is you can upgrade to better pads now!!! Probably not what you wanted to hear.

Performance and feel between stock and after market lines is negligable, biggest difference to be felt is using better pads. When you put on new pads take it easy for a while to give them a chance to scuff off the fuzz and get bedded in, VERY important.

Rook, you are absolutely correct, water in your system will not affect performance but it WILL DEFINATELY cause corrosion in your brake system!!!

Rook, a couple of things regarding water in these particular lines, since they're stainless steel lines they wouldn't "rust" from the water, however even if they weren't stainless the lines are actually rubber lines with a stainless steel braid around them to stop the rubber from expanding due to pressure from the master cylinder.

Like you were saying it lowers the boiling point of the fluid, could turn to steam reducing braking pressure/force and, corrode the inside of the calipers (not sure what materials they use in there) and most likely damage the rubber components and seals.

yannih, you should have seen a BIG difference in braking after switching the lines, I "almost" (well not really) fell off the bike the first time I rolled back down the driveway as I wasn't expecting such a difference after I swapped my lines out.

If they're squishy that's almost always air in the lines, a bunch of the guys have suggested on other threads tieing your brake lever down overnight or something like that to help air move up and out of the system (yeah, you'll need to search that one). If it was my bike, I'd first just bleed the system again myself, brake fluid is cheap and it's really quick easy to do (maybe an hour if its your first time ever).

Really appreciate the help guys but one thing is for sure.
There is a definite decrease in brake feel and not an increase.

So is it contaminated pads or air in the system?
Probably bloody both!
Guess I will have to action both points.

Massively frustrating when you pay big $ to so called experts to work on your bike...

* Last updated by: yannih on 1/3/2015 @ 10:52 PM *

I've heard a lot of people recommend tying the lever down to expel air from both clutch and brake. I don't see how that encourages air to come out of the reservoir any more than pumping the lever. Worth a try but seems to me the bleeder on the MC should be a lot more effective.

..also, leaving the cap off the reservoir. If any air comes up to the reservoir, it was displaced with fluid from he reservoir. Leaving the cap off won't help a thing.

* Last updated by: Rook on 1/3/2015 @ 11:40 PM *

Really appreciate the help guys but one thing is for sure.
There is a definite decrease in brake feel and not an increase.
So is it contaminated pads or air in the system?
Probably bloody both!
Guess I will have to action both points.
Massively frustrating when you pay big $ to so called experts to work on your bike...

Tiny Air bubble in handle bar. Bleed Again from here. Be sure and cover all plastics on dash. Apply good pressure on lever and slowly open bleeder. Any air in the system will travel up and rest here. Try this report back.

We have had issues with the speed bleeders on my brothers bike. I don't use them

I couldn't tell a difference either, only did it for longer length. Bummer.

No real benifit for the regular street rider other than the bling factor. Now in hard racing conditions and track days or there is some benifit as the steal braided lines are less affected by heat, so they won't contract and expand as stock rubber hoses will. Also less prone to break or be damaged in case of a crash or something hitting them and cutting hoses.

Yannih, My bike had been sitting in a garage for months when I found it. The front brakes were almost non-existant, figured something was bad and i'd have to replace parts but after going through everything and bleeding the brakes more than once, I decided there was still more air in the system. Tried the "tie down the lever" approach and it helped but I still thought something wasn't right so I reverse bled the system and ta-da, they were fixed. I'm so far from being a mech that I can't even spell it but a mech friend of mine swears by that method and it cured my issue. Anyway,just another option. Best of luck.

* Last updated by: emsdriver on 1/7/2015 @ 12:46 PM *

Reverse bleed huh...
Interesting.
Thanks ems.

Looks like I have a few things to try.
Also I have ordered new OEM pads to take that issue out of the equation as well (expensive buggers)...

Thanks again to all for the assistance.

yannih

You may just need to bleed the brake lines again. Start at the calipers. Then also at the brake lever resivior.

You get oil on the pads you use brake clean and see that the whole pad has the same color when dried. The pad is dense and not too much [oil] is going to sink in. The cleaner is going to cut it. Hang the pad so the spray is from the top down and the oil flows down the pad, meaning, less onto the pad, etc.

The groove down the center is twofold. I want to make sure they are even pads and that will show me in the cut lines and how deep the grooves are from end to end. Are all even? Then if all are that squared to the disc, etc., I can shave those pads right to the bottom of cut groove and then some is my safety cut gauge.

In my world I do not need a Nipple-ripple, a Tittyankit, a MightHesuck at the nipple think and now slam reverse: my rez runneth over. Why I think I'll walk up to a pump at a water well kind of start hand pumping and not stop. Last stop is close the nipple on the pedal heading to the floorboard or hand grip, which means, some of you guys need a grip of reality!

I'll be done before you pull those other kind of red carpet squidsqueezer tools out of their box, clean it up and pack it back in the box with all the 'nowitall' taking the smoother road but Nooooooooo1LTT

Thanks all.
Problem fixed.
Just replaced the old pads with new OEM ones.
Took the bike for a ride and the first solid brake I tried locked the front up due to the new "bite"!
The old pads were probably contaminated with brake fluid.
Anyway, back to a great feel with the right lever, and definitely better with the new SS lines.
Very pleased...

* Last updated by: yannih on 1/9/2015 @ 9:42 PM *

Awesome. Re-confirmed: do not bring the bike to the shop if you can possibly avoid it.