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Thread: Why the PC?

Created on: 04/10/12 08:34 AM

Replies: 12

Caroobs


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Joined: 03/14/12

Posts: 273

Why the PC?
04/10/12 8:34 AM

Decided to put this in the noob section, since this must be a noob question...

Ok, so I know that Power Commanders are all the rage, but are they necessary to change the fuel/air ratio? Can't a Kawa shop just hook into the onboard ECU or whatever and update it directly? My friend has a Tiger 800 that his shop just updated when they installed his new exhaust... is the ZX onboard whatever not able to be changed?

Also, if I do need a PC to change the tuning, as a street rider who is just looking to set up a good tune for an aftermarket exhaust system, is there really any difference between the PCIII and PCV? I can pick up the PCIII for about half the price as the V, and if they both do the same thing then why not save $150 or so?

Thanks,
C



'09 Candy Green ZX-14, flies out, Yoshi slipons, Pipercross air filter, PAIR blocked, PC-V, Speedohealer, Illumiglo gauges, Throttlemeister cruise control, Monster shorty levers, Corbin seat, 35w HID lights.

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13800

RE: Why the PC?
04/10/12 9:48 AM

This is more a Q&A section, but who cares, here goes:

Yes = Necessary for changing the AFR.
No = The tools are more for downloading history/current codes. You need a lot more hardware (cables for a laptop) and the proper ECU (software) to gain access to the; fuel maps/gear maps/ignition maps/ect. This is a race kit-ECU in other words. You step up to the real AMA/MotoGP kind of programmable ECU.
Correct = Not able to change like like the 800. This is more a preset black box.

Yes, there is a huge difference. Think of the un-programmable Z's ECU, as the pc3. Think of the pcV as the kit-ECU, with more programs to plug in, with more 'cables,' for more 'AFR' readings = A Dyno on wheels.

This says, I should think ahead or just choose a map off line, or have it dyno'd and ruin my delicate cam chain spring.
Also, this says that the 3 and V do use the same 'software' compatibility, yes. As far as saving a few coin on one end, you more or less have extra garage space if you choose the V. The 3 is like a one car garage.

I'm just saying, the V has the ability to install an 02 sensor, 'learn' a more programmed map, meaning, your base map runs ??? [of X to Y's], or you pretty much are hitting on all 4's. Whereas with the 3? Well, you are stuck with that X to Y you plotted into the rpm and throttle opening. Those two interject each time you go out. However, if the V was in the loop, it would continue to learn at the 02 [until you changed a map]. But say, you moved to a different slip set? The 02 would sniff a tiny bit of that change. Handcuffed is the 3.


_______________________________________________________________________

Why the PC?

Good question. This is for more-more-more a refined tuning tool. More HP is the goal. Smooth power. Raw power. Lean running. Lots of choices like more of it. I run leaner than factory without a pc. You are going to putt with way too much wasted fuel. You will have a muffler that is still hosing down the sound (power). Your air flow is not at a high rate of speed on the street.

Someone asked if it was OK to run with header only? Knowing this is a preset bike that knows only the goings on at the intake side, it was a mute point to use a pc. No matter how fast you open up that throttle, stretch the con rod bolts, just to wear those few hours lost on that peg of the needle, did the engine keep up with your throttle move is of course it did.

What you need to recognize is how you will use the bike. Will you need a pc for a muffler to muffler change? No. Will you 'want' more power? It depends on what you want to do next. Do you 'need' more power? Would trying the pipe first, note what power changed? Then, confirm a loss somewhere from the bottom end, or whatever you feel, is going to be new/sound/feeligheright?

Why, there is more ball to be had if you uncork her. The pc is now more the ball is in your court.



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SnuffyZX


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Location: New York City

Joined: 03/16/09

Posts: 1080

RE: Why the PC?
04/10/12 7:27 PM

WOW HUB Great Write Up!!!

Thanks
Snuffy



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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13800

RE: Why the PC?
04/10/12 8:39 PM

Whyyyyy, thanks there, Snuffer.



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21744



Joined: 11/06/09

Posts: 175

RE: Why the PC?
04/10/12 9:17 PM

Thank you HUB! How do you know so much stuff?


* Last updated by: 21744 on 4/10/2012 @ 9:21 PM *

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13800

RE: Why the PC?
04/11/12 12:40 AM

This place. The membership has schooled me about all this stuff. I stay stock. Never wrote a map, nor know how-to downloaded one. Don't need one. I just follow the crowd on paper. More like, read the instruction manuals. Stuff like that adds to what the members are describing or when they discuss piggy parts. It was all new to me.

I wanted to learn how stock runs first. So, I borrowed an 02 sniffer. Threw it on two of my bikes so far. Read the data of both open and closed loops. A few runs watching the bike read numbers is where my last tune is set at; AFR&D'ing w/out pig. I can prove without a doubt, how smooth my bike runs/sounds. No vibration at the handle bars. I can cause vibration at the handlebars so you can see [how], if you tune the bike buy the book... Budda-boom-budda-bing are the cylindersmooooooth'ear'still.

And with flash, you keep hearing that you still have to run a map. This is true. Flashing is simply changing the preset to the other set. It gets complicated. So, the tune has to follow steps and I would setup the pig this way, IMO, that is:

1. Flash = It.
2. Book sync = Round 1.
3. Pig = Is next.
4. Book sync = Round 2.

Why?

Because, you are crap shooting in an environment. How much fan is blowing on that bike is a map set. Someone else might have a harder blowing fan in the dyno room, cools the bike faster, yet sets another map for the same bike, we ride it over there, a 1000 miles away and all that altitude change variable(s).

The fuel is going to change, you swap number for number, plus a grid of blocks, or individually minus a block or 2. The air screws can work more plus or minus; air to fuel ratios. Close them down, more gas. Open them up, lean can clean up a map, or enhance the map.

Big part of AFR is the accel mode. Gotta nail that or she won't break wheel. And flashasomethingoodstoredare.



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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13800

RE: Why the PC?
04/11/12 12:56 AM

21744,

No, thank you.

To ...

... 'Hi-Pee Forum Ants' in my pants, I need an R like really bad... Anyone know where the restroom is around here?



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Rook


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Joined: 03/28/09

Posts: 20856

RE: Why the PC?
04/12/12 12:13 AM

If you can get a PC3 tat much cheaper than go with it. Tell you the truth, I forgot what the PC5 was supposed to do that the PC3 didn't do. More thorough mapping? IDK. I have this abstract of Dynojets PC5 intro info from 2008.

PC5 is:

1. More compact
Reduced size from PCIIIusb (less than half of the size of PCIII)


2. More Sensitive to more types of input
Gear/Speed input (allows for map adjustment based on gear and speed)

Analog input (allows user to install any 0-5 volt sensor and build an adjustment table based on its input such as boost or temperature)

With gear position input connected the PCV is capable of allowing each cylinder to be mapped individually and for each gear (for example: on a 4 cylinder bike with a six speed transmission there could be up to 24 separate fuel tables).

3. More adjustable
Unit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100%). This allows more adjustment range for 8 injector sportbikes PCIII has a +/-100% range


10 throttle position columns (up from 9 on PCIIIusb)

Enhanced “accel pump” utility (increased adjustment and sensitivity ranges)
?2 position map switching function built in (map switch not included)


4. Autotune expandable
Auto Tune for PCV (all models):? “Auto Tune” kit will be available that includes Wide Band O2 sensor(s) and control box(es). It will plug directly into the PCV and allow automatic fuel adjustments.

Not sure if autotune can be used with the PCIII. Seems like it could be a nice feature to add on.

The PCIII maps for individual cylinders but it does not have the capability to map separately according to gear or to map according to speed.

If you buy the LCD display and connect to a PCIII, you should be able to store & switch between many maps.

There are so many more important things to screw around with on these bikes. Self tuning and such is something I have never gotten to and I have owned the bike for 5 years.

One approach would be for you to look at all the DJ products and decide which ones really interest enough that you would use them. Then choose a PC that is compatible with what you want your setup to be. Not all DJ products work together. The only way to find out is to ask a DJ tech on the phone.

Another approach would be to buy the $$150 PC3 and use it. If you want to upgrade, you might be able to sell it fro as much as you paid (unless all PC3 go for $150 these days).



08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE ZX-14 Now Deceased, will be resurected 2024 ZX-14R bran friggin NEW!

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Caroobs


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Joined: 03/14/12

Posts: 273

RE: Why the PC?
04/12/12 9:34 AM

Yeah, all the extra things that PCV does don't really mean much to me at all. I haven't really even begun to use all the power available stock, and my only real motivation in getting the PC is because I'm replacing the exhaust. I must admit, the autotune feature is the one thing that appeals to me about the PCV. Even with a $150 PCIII, if I spend another $350 getting the bike tuned with it, now I'm $40 away from the PCV with autotune...

I think I'll get the cheap PCIII and try some downloaded maps for exhaust setups similar to mine. If I can't dial it in that way, then I'll go the PCV/autotune route rather than paying someone to tune the PCIII over and over.

What are the chances of actually hurting the engine by downloading maps and using one that "feels right"? If the power is there and everything is running great, can I safely just go with that (remembering that I'm not looking to squeeze more power out of the bike, just want it to be setup to run well with new exhaust)?

You guys are a great help, btw!

Caroobs



'09 Candy Green ZX-14, flies out, Yoshi slipons, Pipercross air filter, PAIR blocked, PC-V, Speedohealer, Illumiglo gauges, Throttlemeister cruise control, Monster shorty levers, Corbin seat, 35w HID lights.

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13800

RE: Why the PC?
04/13/12 12:38 PM

What are the chances of actually hurting the engine by downloading maps and using one that "feels right"?
Not very much, you take a precaution on the wiring.

You sound like me with the back and forth. I know what you are going thru. Here is the deal. No, you won't hurt anything but more carbon and a set of plugs, maybe but doubt it. I would clean the spark plugs with a toggle to the hot side of the pc. You throw the jetime map out of the loop. WOT the throttle to clean the plugs.

Install next map... Keep changing to watt'feels right' and you are home free, no extra run to some dyno. You saved the plugs from wet fouling with too much "jetime" call it. 'Injector duty cycle' is another word for it. That time is like a shot glass full, or half a shot > are the maps. Think of it like that.

The more it loads up, the more taxing on the porcelain at the spark plug. You cool it down, she is going to find a shorter path thru the wet jetting you are throwing at it. Now for the walletime. Buy the time you waste the loss; selling/shipping/ebay fees. Say that is the route, no bites here. Why not have the V so updated, the 3 is a fire sale or is like windows98, here is win7 instead.

It has more plugins. It is ready for the next accessory that is more the beginning of a rolling dyno. You'll want to read the AFR meter. I'm just saying. You might get comfortable on the tuning process; Find it is not so difficult. Then, wear a 'kick me' sign, I should have added the 40 extra bucks, the ebay, the mail it off, I should have put that toward the next plug in [V] to begin with. BTW, You do know you have to weld a bung into the exhaust? If you had an aftmrk header with one already there, that is how obsolete the 3 is becoming.

DOS or Longhorn... Your final decision.



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Grn14


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Location: Montana

Joined: 02/25/09

Posts: 15511

RE: Why the PC?
04/13/12 1:00 PM

Rook..you would know this one I think...maybe others...but...IF you have your PCV enabled for 'autotune'...do you have a base map already in there,say,a muzzy map or whatever.And the 'autotune' begins readjusting things within that map?Is that partly what it does?Or can it 'build' a completely new map from a 'zero' installed map?Be cool if you could have a very very good map,and just have the PC tweak it in some spots that maybe only it recognizes as needing to be readjusted...without changing the 'good' areas at all.Maybe that's what it does already?Once enabled.

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Caroobs


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Joined: 03/14/12

Posts: 273

RE: Why the PC?
04/13/12 4:10 PM

So I got the PCIII for $130. Gonna install it and try some random maps this weekend. I'm also going to block off the air from that PAIR system to help with the gurgling and popping and the occasional backfire since the new exhaust is on.

My current plan is to pack my laptop, cables, etc, find a quiet stretch of road, and see if I can't find a decent tune for myself. I'll find a preset one that feels close, then might even play with tweaking it myself - the chart is really easy to read, and it would be neat to see if I can actually notice any differences in there. And with the laptop, it only takes a minute to plug in and update the mapping. So cool that we have this technology now lol!

I'll even use my iPhone pocket dyno - no idea how accurate an iPhone dyno app can be, but it might be a neat bit of data to add to the equation. I know approximately what the numbers should be, and if it can give consistent readings at all I could perhaps use it to back up my "what feels right" approach to tuning.

I'm hoping this can work out ok. I absolutely love the look of the KR Tuned slip ons, and once I removed those pesky baffles the sound is BOSS! So if I can get this thing running well on my own, that will put my total cost for this upgrade - pipes, header, PCIII - under $450.

Pretty good budget upgrades, and this is pretty fun stuff besides. You guys are a great support group!
C



'09 Candy Green ZX-14, flies out, Yoshi slipons, Pipercross air filter, PAIR blocked, PC-V, Speedohealer, Illumiglo gauges, Throttlemeister cruise control, Monster shorty levers, Corbin seat, 35w HID lights.

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bigwilliezx


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Location: Keller, Texas

Joined: 04/29/11

Posts: 571

RE: Why the PC?
04/17/12 6:30 PM

Hub = Yoda with a 'tude! When you can finally understand his lingo, it's like the light bulb finally lighting up in ur head! The others are like the Jedi counsel! Yup there's plenty of knowledge and a hell of a lot of riding experience in this group - I've learned tons since signing on!



Life may begin at 30, but it doesn't get real interesting until about 150... Ride or die!

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