Funny how many '12 riders with green bikes have such similar avatars.

Yes, I agree with you 100% Vic, after reading that, I actually think we are trying to prove 2 different points. You're saying that everything has a direct relation to...everything! I get what you're saying completely, what I'M saying is that we can't say what that means for the future in everyday life yet. Your saying it will certainly be directly related to what is happening right now. Correct? I'm saying, until we can do that, some just call it luck.
Am I getting close? LOL

Sic

Let me just add...about the 'knowing' thing...I can tell you right now...honest truth..I HAVE died.Three times in one time frame.Had to be shocked back to life.I wasn't comatose and dead...I was lucid and mentally functioning...so I think I can say...when I died...there was nothing.No thoughts...no remembrances...no feelings.Just the remembrance of the shock bringing me back.And of course...passing away again.All my life skills meant ZERO to what happened that morning.So saying IF ONLY really counts...while you're alive...saying 'wrecking is a lack of skill' is...not totally true in every situation...it was a presumptuous statement...based on someone who's never wrecked...and thinks he's above 'being human'.

EVERY thought that we(I) can come up with..is based on...'me'.My perception.'My' perception CAN be not accurate.Just as YOURS Vic is NOT accurate about wrecking and skill level.You sound like you've 'got it all figured out'...black and white...makes ya feel okay with you.There just 'may' be a whole other 'reality' going on right in front of us...ever hear the phrase.."can't see the forest for the trees?"...kinda like that;)

My opinion...you did what EVERYONE who rides a bike does...you REACTED to the 'threat'...it was enough to save ya.In your scenario...what you did worked.Dial it up a notch or two..it may have got ya killed.We don't control anything...taking an MSF class(es) CAN help someone survive out there...but it's NO guarantee...EVER.You HOPE,or maybe 'think' you'll do the correct thing..when reality strikes...and it's for real....you'll find out just how far all your 'thinking' has intervened to either help you or hurt you.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 9/22/2014 @ 10:04 PM *

It's vital to understand, and not be confused by what I'm not trying to prove. I'm not trying to prove that I know the future, or that your and everyone's decisions aren't individual and that you have a fate or destiny. Fate and destiny are just as stupid as luck.

What I am trying to prove is that all humans, and beings (even plants), have a defined relationship to each other. If you and two other beings or even have made a decision to intersect at the wrong time then bad things will happen. Luck has nothing to do with it. If you really give it some consideration, Santa Claus is more plausible than luck.

Here's an example:
You have a familiar road. You have a curve that you find challenging. This week, you're running the road, and like always push it too hard and run wide resulting in you running off the road. Fortunately you don't mind this because it's grass, and you know that if you stand the bike up and carefully slow down you'll probably make it no probs. Heck in some ways it's good practice in case you have to do this in less familiar territory.

Next week you're this same road, and approach the curve the same speeds, making all the same errors. This time you smash into a road sign. During the week, because of the result of a set of decisions made by other people, a sign was placed there just at the point you always run off the road every week you ride this road.

This has nothing to do with luck. You didn't run into the sign because of bad luck, or good luck, or any luck at all. You ran into the sign because of a series of decisions and events that occurred that resulted in this exact circumstance which could not have happened any other way. You ran into the sign because you took it for granted a sign could not be there. The exact same thing could happen with any other hazard, whether it be another driver, an oil spot, debris, animal, etc.

Thanks guys, this has been a great convo. I appreciate that some of you want to believe in luck. For me, I've moved passed the desire to believe in things, and prefer to know things these days. Again, as I stated initially perhaps as it effects us in real life and motorcycling, maybe this is the vital difference between you and I pertaining to motorcycle accidents (or vehicle accidents in general)?

One final closing thought, I'm sure in all of modern history no accident determination was based on luck.

Luck has nothing to do with it. If you really give it some consideration, Santa Claus is more plausible than luck.

What about this guy?

LMAO!

If I were crossing a pasture, I'd agree that this is some deep shit right here, that's certain!

Calvinist-like religiously held belief's are just that and nothing more. The laws of conservation of energy and mass
have nothing to do with "proving" your strongly held beliefs and do nothing to prove them. Nor do they provide a basis for anyone to take your proselytizing seriously.

Each of us is free to believe what we want; for an idea of the requirements of real proofs try a short study of epistemology.

This thread has devolved into no more than a college dorm room bull session into the meaning of or lack of meaning in personal/corporal existence. That is also your choice and it is up to you to assign validity (authenticity) to it for yourself (and only for yourself pilgrim!) A thousand monks.....a thousand religions!

Good luck with taking showers in raincoats, fellas!

With luck or with the guidance of the fates; you will overcome the priority (grow out of it) someday; meanwhile, if you like math, physics and philosophy, may I suggest a digression and consideration along the lines of the uncertainty of knowing: consider Schrödinger's Cat as a beginning.

Wolfman's photo-graphic just about sums it up!

* Last updated by: PaulAB on 9/23/2014 @ 3:52 PM *

Each of us is free to believe what we want; for an idea of the requirements of real proofs try a short study of epistemology.

Actually I really doubt you understand what freedom really means. From reading the other parts of your reply is clear to me you do not understand anything I've stated here. If you're on religion or philosophy, free-will, destiny, or per-determination you don't understand anything I've said. Your way off on some other type of field.

I have made so many riding mistakes in the past, and for whatever reason, have not been held accountable at that time. On each occasion I thought "ok, that one was free, the next one could cost me". I could have wrecked on so many occasions, but a complex set of interwoven circumstances determined that I didn't. If any one of those circumstances were different, I may not have fared so well. Whether it's fate, luck, karma, good fortune, or some theoretical maths or physics equation that I simply don't understand. I don't really think it matters what name you give it. Solid skills and good instincts will influence the outcome in your favor, but it will not pre-determine it. That's my way of looking at things. I'll keep practicing and working on my riding because I ABSOLUTELY LOVE riding this thing.

I don,t know why this is so long winded! because SHIT HAPPENS!

Prejac: It's vital you understand, and not be confused by what I'm not trying to prove.
Youlation: I'm not trying to prove that I know the future, or that you came first.

Prejac: And everyone's decisions aren't individual, right?
Youlation: That you have a fate or destiny to come that quick?

Prejac: Fate and destiny are just as stupid as luck.
Youlation: Aren't you lucky I got in the mood?

Prejac: What I am trying to prove is that all humans, and beings (even plants)...
Youlation: ... have a defined relationship to each other? I want a divorce!

Prejac: If you and other beings have made a decision to intersect...
Youlation:... at the wrong time then bad things will happen. Oh, but good things to you is it?

Prejac: Luck has nothing to do with it.
Youlation: If you really give it some consideration, me coming first is more plausible than luck.

Prejac: But honey, the stars lined up and oops, I slipped.
Youlation: You slipped it in and where was I in all this... Having relations Wit the plants and cumbers.

The cat is dead. I know because I opened the box and looked.

Oh wait... dammit!

Did all this start because some silly bugger wrote a few innocent well meaning words on luck???

* Last updated by: yannih on 9/23/2014 @ 8:26 PM *

Did all this start because some silly bugger wrote a few innocent well meaning words on luck???

Fuck me!So im paying fer kicking black cats N walking under ladders lol

So im paying fer kicking black cats N walking under ladders lol

Jeez sweetfa,
Don't use the "L" word!
You'll start the varying theories up all over again :)

No you two things are quite lets let sleeping ...... sleep lol

Hey wait a second... I do have bad luck...and I have broke mirrors through out my life!? Does the 7 years start the moment the mirror is broken, or is it cumulative like consecutive sentences?

I also stepped on a crack once. My mom broke her back in a car accident.

Ummm hey guys about that luck thing...

What word has 4 letters, ends in _uck and causes great consternation?
Funny cause I always thought it started with " f " but maybe not!

Vic, I understand your frustration when trying to get across what you believe to plainly be so.
But it kinda goes both ways.

That well know road and corner that all of a sudden has a sign erected in just the wrong place.
Whether we hit it or not could well be due to your idea of how the world works.
But afterwards we might either be sitting at home thinking "glad by chance i was going easier today and saw the newly erected sign for next time", or in a medical center thinking "man I wish they hadn't put that sign there just on the day I was going harder than ever".

When the actions of the day are finished and we are reviewing what may or may not have occurred and why, I don't think it's too much of a sin to think "gee, that was lucky/unlucky"...

I agree 100% with sweetfa.
I have made mistakes to varying degrees on my bike over the years and have not been held accountable in a major way to this point in time.
And yet some poor soul who's just starting out makes a first minor error that puts them in exactly the wrong spot at the exactly the wrong time and pays the ultimate price.

Take out the obvious increase of risk due to being foolish and reckless for both riders.
One makes multiple errors and for some reason is okay.
One makes one small error and is not.

I guess we all have our theories to be respected but to me that's just plain lucky or unlucky...

* Last updated by: yannih on 9/24/2014 @ 6:01 AM *

In the words of Colin Edwards, it's a calculated risk. Bad things hapenning on a motorcycle has to do with risk and odds. The faster you go, the greater the risk. Calculate in bike condition, road conditions, weather, number of distracted drivers, skill level, etc...
etc... How you play the odds is up to you.

* Last updated by: Auron on 9/24/2014 @ 12:46 PM *

That's right Auron.

For a thorough treatment of motorcycle risk assessment and avoidance check out the book "Ride Hard Ride Smart" by Pat Hahn. I have not seen anyone else approach the topic the way he does. It is about understanding the spectrum of risk and how it relates to you as a rider. The spectrum goes from sitting on the couch to having a lifespan measurable in minutes. There are also lots of excellent street strategy tips in depth.

This is something that if everyone on the forum read, they could all find things they agreed on.
(Imagine that).

The most memorable section for me is the one about your willingness to jump out the back of a pickup truck at various speeds, based on what you are wearing. Good writing, plenty of humor.

tl/dr Understand where you are on the risk spectrum at any given moment and take responsibility.

* Last updated by: tooncinator on 9/24/2014 @ 1:31 PM *

The famous golfer Gary Player once said it like this, "The more I practice, the luckier I get!". LOL

Sic

Ps in response to Jimmy about hiking insurance rates. My single vehicle accident is being repaired on my own dime. No insurance companies where used, hurt or killed in the incident involving exploding plastics while bull riding.

* Last updated by: Wolfman on 9/24/2014 @ 5:50 PM *

Were those redheads luck or skill Wolf?

* Last updated by: Auron on 9/24/2014 @ 3:55 PM *

Were those redheads luck or skill Wolf?

Click for Wolf's "nailed redheads".

Personally, I think he got screwed.

* Last updated by: hagrid on 9/24/2014 @ 4:30 PM *