HUB...YOU are RIGHT ON wit yer Obs.I took my PAZZOS...

Didn't we learn that from what's his name? Found out he had aftermarket levers =

blue

Aftermarket levers not doing their homework =

You mean the Cam Position Sensor,don't ya?

Rook, this is more a pre-load at the plunger. Take the OEM and see how much that plunger moves in, you stake the pin down the perch.
If that plunger moves farther in than the OEM's resting distance, you now load the rod to the pressure plate even more.

IOW--The after market levers might cause the clutch to be slightly disengaged --even at 0 lever action. I'm riding around with clutch slipping just a tiny bit all the time --like the clutch lever is pulled just a a little at all times. It never is a solid connection between clutch and motor.

.SOME of them work okay for a bit,then pins and stuff start to wear...i.e.,clutch lever comes to mind.Fine for a while...then she inexplicably started slippin.Couldn't figure out for a couple of weeks what was happening.THEN...I happened to read on another forum about the same problem...slipping clutch.The common denominator was...VOILA!The aftermarket lever piston pins were wearing down.

Sounds like the opposite problem Hub is describing. The clutch is partially engaged even when you have the lever pulled.

I fussed with the OEM and Chinazzo clutch lever tonight. The Chinazzo fits the slot great. No sloppyness, nice and smooth pivot.

I am a bit concerned that the new levers are "preloading the clutch" too much. The after market lever does seem to push the pin just a tiny bit more than the OEM does. How will I know if the clutch is slipping? That would be a real problem if I go 500 miles riding the clutch the whole way. loss of hp and severe clutch wear. Is there any way i can test tell if the clutch is fully engaged while the new clutch lever is at rest?

I'm not too worried about the clutch creeping if the levers ware. I'd just do what blue did. toss them. no damage done. Lever ware- no biggy. Clutch ware, loss of performance-BIGGY, no thanks.

* Last updated by: Rook on 3/13/2011 @ 12:54 AM *

Think about this... Guy says if the pin wears down, it slips? If the aftermarket is pushing the pin in too deep now, just think when each part bangs into each other. They wear down and would not the plunger come out not be pushed in?

Drill the aftermarket parts or mod the aftermarkets. Because you mess with the OEM, it may take the whole unit complete to just buy that one part you sawed off or ground down. Now reinstall your OEM'whatevers, she no fit no more, sally!

So way not drill the pin recess deeper. This way, you do not grind down the OEM pin. And if you mess up the drilled hole, you can stick a chunk of welding rod in there; like cut to size. You regained what you drilled out too deep and now the lever rattles instead.

Can you tell if the lever is sheslipsees?

1. Remove oil fill plug.
2. Set transmission in 1st gear.
3. Back wheel is off the ground and if you used 6th, it would be too easy to turn the crank. This way, the moment of truth says you watch the clutch center slip without touching the lever.
4. Then begin to press the clutch lever and see how close it takes to break the pack loose.
5. Drill the lever barrel until you no longer can slip the clutch either in the static or hammering the bike at top rpm.

^Thanks Hub. Great tip--turning the wheel in 6 gear. That should give me some idea of what is happening with the amount of preload the after market lever causes. It may be that the clutch piston pin does nothing for the first 10% of lever travel except provide tension in the lever (so it doesn't flop for and aft). Let's hope.

I had considered drilling the "fulcrum" /divot/ pin rest" (whatever you want to call it). That part is removable on the levers. It looks like it is made of brass. Much softer than the piston pin. I already see some slight ware on this part from the ~25 pulls on the clutch I did last night. I imagine the brass will help to reduce wear on the steel piston pin.

.....but just give a minute or two to load up some pics. You might find this interesting.

* Last updated by: Rook on 3/13/2011 @ 10:09 AM *

No, use 1st gear = It's harder to move the crank so the clutch can unload.

Using 6th has less resistance as in gears giving you better leverage. So the crank moves easier and you have zip of any kind of heavy load at the plates.

You can't hold that little bolt at the cam chain. You can't remove the stator cover and hold the crank with that bolt and now load the clutch.

But if we are on the ragged edge of that pin pushing the pressure plate off the discs, your best chance is 1st gear if we are on the same page now.

And try to resist placing a tool in that oil cap hole. All you need is to slip and collapse the threads or ding a thread and there goes screwing the cap back on. The other is if you bust a tang(s) trying to push or hold either basket.

Here we have the brass piston rest on the inside of the lever.

Closer look, you can see the brass has shorn away and even the aluminum where the OEM part is dragging against it. I see a few silver splinters laying there and I know I saw some flakes last night in the garage.

Here you can see there is a spring clip that retains the brass bushing dealy-ma-bob. I took it out last night and the brass aprt can be shaken/tapped out of there. Would not be hard to drill.

The OEM levers have a perfect cylindrical "well" the piston pin drops into. NO cone shaped recess at the bottom as what happens when we drill with an ordinary pointed bit. The piston pin is cylindrical in shape. It does not really fit the cone bottomed hole..althoughg I suppose it does the job of holding the pin.....and I imagine it will only get better as it wears closer to a flat bottomed well like the OEM pin hole. On;y thing, if it weras too much, the clutch will not fully disengage and the bike will creep like blue's was doing.

* Last updated by: Rook on 3/13/2011 @ 10:43 AM *

I had considered drilling the "fulcrum" /divot/ pin rest" (whatever you want to call it). That part is removable on the levers. It looks like it is made of brass.

Throw a same size drill bit in an electric drill and take the chuck key, lock all 3 sides down on it. That's what I do, not just the one chuck hole. Now you hand hold that chuck and hand carve out one 360° light shave of brass out of that divotpinchewmecallit.

It's going to be a slow process, but I'd reinstall the stock lever, run a piece of tape over the m/c and use that line of the tape to show how deep or shallow the plunger is now with no lever in the m/c. I then install the chewmecallit back on. Now I see how far in that plunger is now from the line of tape drawn.

And it's one scrubadub of the drill [buy new] bit so it clean shaves that space right back to the tape line.

* Last updated by: Hub on 3/13/2011 @ 10:56 AM *

See the folded up chunk? Just shave that out w/drill bit. Go all the way back to that wall but do not cut wall yet.

Yah,,,yah. I'm following ya, Hub... I see the problem...it is that the hole is not looking straight back at the pin. Looks looks it would have been better to locate the hole a mm or so closer to adjuster knob (where the numbers are lathed in there). You see, the brass has turned because it does not line up on center. The pin is trying to center the hole but then the sides of the hole are no longer parallel to the pin which seems to be causing binding....and the pin isn't touching bottom of hole as it should...so it is preloaded too much, in all likelyhood.

Just got reamed by somebody at BL for asking too many questions about this. A few people there have had this kind of issue with cheap levers. These levers are so nice looking and they are high quality, too. They fit perfectly in all other respects. WTF.after all these years, wouldn't the manufacturers make one small adjustment so the piston pin would operate as intended? I remeber reading this stuff back in 2008. A guy was posting pics of this same thing on the old forum. You remeberthat, HUb? Now I know wht they all were talking about.

Still too good to pass up a deal like this. Shite if I can't fix this. I'll prolly not be trusting myself to a hand held drill. I was looking at dremels last month. Nice little press that they make too. $$$$$$$$$$$$$

This is going to cost as much as a set of Pazzos but hey, NOW I will have a dremmel tool!!!

* Last updated by: Rook on 3/13/2011 @ 12:53 PM *

BTW, we have a piston pin with a rubber boot. There is another pin that contacts the inside tip of the lever ....underneath the mount bar mount. This other pin is hooked up to some wires. Some kind of switch. A switch that does what?

Ya Rook...I meant to edit that wording outta there....yes...the clutch was doing just as yours was...almost.Only when she warmed up.Stock levers...problem solved.I get yer frustration with this stuff...same way I feel about...well...Lockhart/Phillips.Their zx14 screens.BEAUTIFUL.But they don't fit right!After all this time of the 14 being out...you'd think SOMEONE there in the engineering dept would sit down and get this fitment thing right!I'm definitely not the ONLY one who has told them about this very real problem.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 3/13/2011 @ 3:19 PM *

This other pin is hooked up to some wires. Some kind of switch. A switch that does what?

That's there so the bike won't start in gear, w/o the clutch lever pulled in.

Just went and double checked all of this stuff on my CRG's... All good.

1) the pivot is hardened steel, not brass... won't wear out.
2) there's nothing making contact that shouldn't (no filings or rub marks).
3) the dimple in the pivot looks like it was done with a cnc not a drill. It it flat bottomed like stock.
4) the CRG does not push the plunger on the master cylinder in (engage the clutch) any more than the stock lever. I measured the length of the plunger with both the stock and the CRG lever installed to check this.

I'd put them things on the wall of shame and get some CRG's.

Dogo is right. Clutch safety and do not snap that pin off the switch. Maybe we are degrees off because the master might be different than what that set is used for on another Kawi?

If we see your galled up receiver call it, are a few degrees off and that is where the push pin rests, then the lever may tag the m/c's pin as you get it pulled finally?

So yeah, you would now have to dremel the U troth on the lever. That pin may drop even more if it aims that low already. And yes, I find that ball busting, dick slapping pretty much common around the world. So common, I had to dildo up LOL

Maybe we are degrees off because the master might be different than what that set is used for on another Kawi?

This other pin is hooked up to some wires. Some kind of switch. A switch that does what?
That's there so the bike won't start in gear, w/o the clutch lever pulled in.

Thanks Dogo. Thanks for description of your after market lever too. I'm guessing Pazzos have a similar pin rest to yours. I think I can rule out the idea that the my Chinazzo pin rest is an exact copy of a Pazzo. I think the brass part might be there to allow for easier modding because they know these things will not work on every bike without some fiddling. I'm not ready to retire them to the wall of shame yet. No sir, I don't give up that easy.

It looks as though these babies might be drilled out without much trouble. They have a nice flat surface opposite of the drill and it sure looks perpendicular to the travel of the piston pin. That might stay put perfectly well for a drill press.

guys.

* Last updated by: Rook on 3/13/2011 @ 6:47 PM *

I wonder if the manufacturer might not be trying to do double duty with their ZX-10 lever and their ZX-14 lever

Nah, two totally different animals. The 10r's clutch isn't hydrolic, it uses a cable... and the flange for the switch
is in a completely different location. I could post a pic, but don't wanna make your thread any more confusing.

Thanks for description of your after market lever too. I'm guessing Pazzos have a similar pin rest to yours. I think I can rule out the idea that the my Chinazzo pin rest is an exact copy of a Pazzo.

I'd think so. They look the same... but I've never owned a set of Pazzo's to compare. I know that those Titax's had a hardened steel pin and fit as well as my CRG's. The finish on the CRG's is much smoother, however, the Titax's had mill marks like your Chazzo's.

* Last updated by: DogoZX on 3/13/2011 @ 7:19 PM *

don't wanna make your thread any more confusing.

It has taken some twists and turns, hasn't it. In the end, we will have an easy path to owning cheap, cool race levers .......or a dead end. The Wall of Shame.

I'm a little late here..

But rook, you wuss. You can't 2 finger the stock clutch?! LOL

I ran a cut stock lever with adams springs and extra spacers. (read as: over double the spring pressure)

2 fingers!

Just because you can don't mean you should...hehe yeah, I think I could go with two fingers on the stock lever no prob but for track riding with constant clutch shifting/modulation seems like even the stock clutch would be a handful with any lever. Even stop and go traffic was a bit taxing. I would say a shorty is not going to improve the feel on the clutch. It may actually be worse. If I get the shorties to fit well and operate smoothly, I will order a set of standard length. I haven't a problem with a shorty brake and a standard clutch. Just didn't want to order both because if I get taken to the Chinese cleaners on this, that would have been twice the laundry bill.

Really, I doubt I will notice a lot of added performance between stock and the Chinazzos. I expect the weight will be negligible too. My after market levers will be mainly for looks, I think. I won't know until I get them drilled out and on the bike.

Hey Rook, Hub is right on about the drilling the diameter of the hole where the pin fits in from the master cylinder on both the brake and clutch levers. I have been doing lots of reading about clutches slipping with these cheap levers, so I decided to check it out tonight as I haven't been riding yet (weather just started warming up here about a week or so ago and my seat is in being cut down with a gel pad put in it too). Started switching back and forth between stock and aftermarket levers and noticed that the aftermarket ones were putting some preload on the m/c rods, so I found a drill bit the same size as the hole on the factory levers and drilled them out ( didn't need to go deeper at all). mine are brass also and it took all of about 30 seconds to drill them both out, now they match the factory levers for rod depth. By the way the levers you got look identical to the ones I bought from Ride it Moto.

Well time to rejuvenate the Chinazzo thread. It's a year later, give or take. I just went ahead and bought some real Pazzos. Looks like there are a couple differences in the pin fulcrum.

All that has been said about the shape and size of the hole that the pin goes into is right on the money. The Pazzos have holes that are larger with flat bottoms just like the OEM levers. The fulcrum is not brass on the Pazzo and the fulcrum is retained by a real snap ring that requires a tiny snap ring pliers to remove. The snap ring on the Chinazzo is a bent piece of wire rod. Works good and can be removed easily with a needle nose.

pin holes: Chinazzo, OEM, Pazzo

Fulcrums made of different metal and different kinds of retainers used.

The nuts have different markings (tiny letters) on them but otherwise identical to the Chinazzos.

The lathing is rougher on the Pazzo which IMHO looks lower quality than the Chinazzo.

The Chinaazo has a slight gloss to its surface. The blue color of the Chinaazo is the beautiful light aqua blue that I prefer in anodized parts. The Pazzo is the darker purple blue that seems more common.

The adjuster knob on the Pazzo is perfectly tight and clicks smoothly where the Chinazzo feels sloppy when turned. Even so, the Chinazzo lever holds its position as well as the Pazzo when the adjuster is snapped into any detent. The pivot hole in the OEM lever has a busing. Neither the Chinazzo or the Pazo have this. The hole on the Pazzo feels the most snug on the pivot pin. the Chinazzo does not feel much worse.

The Pazzo is 2 tenths ounce lighter which I think is the result of a slightly thinner shape toward the end of the lever. The holes also look to be slightly larger in the Pazzo. IMO, the Chinazzo has a more appealing shape but the difference is so slight that I wouldn't know unless I compared side by side.

Read a thread at busa.org where a guy who worked in a laboratory was able to test the strength of a Pazzo v a Chinazzo. The Pazzo was slightly lighter like I found with my levers but the Pazzo withstood more pressure applied by a hydrolic press. Both Chinazzo and Pazzo were stronger than OEM busa lever.

I'll edit pics into this thread soon. Can't say a lot more until I try the Pazzos but looks to me that the Chinazzo is as good and better looking. If a boring bit could be used to widen the hole the pin fits into, that might be all that is needed.

The other argument is "why risk it?" Stuff wears and if the Chinazzo wears in a way that causes damage to the clutch, they are not worth all the hassle and $$$ to fix that and change the lever to boot.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/10/2012 @ 12:05 AM *

Comparative weights

Pazzo

Chinazzo

OEM