Now that I've got your attention,lets build a 14 for under 3500 dollars that can exceed 200 mph.We need input listing products,prices and benefits.Labour is not being included,other then dyno tuning it should not be a factor.This must be an naturally aspirated bike, no nos, no turbo.

Brock claims to have done exactly that already....he even sells a "200mph" kit I believe. Supposedly its all bolt on stuff too, no motor work.

Bad been reading Brocks article,pipe ,PC ,speedo healer,race gas,non o-ring chain,140 lb rider,maxton map.The chain will be my next investment.140 LB rider that going to be very hard to achieve.Ceramic bearings and carbon fibre rims would help the weight problem but very expensive

If you're open to a small shot of nitrous along with your other bolt-ons, 200 could become very reachable.....its way cheaper than rims and ceramic bearings, and won't care how much you weigh

Just did a search of non-oring chains and my guess is you would not be running it long before you switched to an xring or some other sealed roller chain. The non orings ware out in 1500 miles, you will have to adjust and clean very often and there doesn't seem to be much dif in performance increase once both chains are warmed up. One guy dynoed oring vs non oring and got the same result after both the chains were warm.

Hi Darryle

great thread if we can get a few more minds on board.

I am going to the Bub Motorcycle Speed Week August 28 - Sept 2, 2010 with a highly modified air cooled older Laverda triple. As I will be travelling down from western Canada for the event. I thought I would also take my 08 ZX 14 and see if I could break 200 mph on the salt with the ZX 14, with only minor modifications. As I am a relatively big guy (220 pounds withpout gear), I might have to do a bit more than Brock's did to his ZX 14.

My initial look at what might be required has kicked up a bit of a wish list, as follows:

catalytic convertors removed, and Clean Air system disabled - done
header titanium ceramic coated for heat reduction, and Yosh dual slip ons for lots of exhaust volume - done
Engine Ice for whatever cooling benefit it might bring - done
DynoJet Power Commander 5, and Dyno Jet autotuner - done
top end fuel injection mapping for Bonneville - needs to be done after cam timing and ignition timing dialed in
AMA Competition membership - done

Considering:
tires -for top speed running? Nitrogen fill? Pressures?
Muzzy's aluminum radiator fan, and possibly a second rad cooling fan
adjustable ignition timing rotor
adjustable cam sprockets - advance intake timing, retard exhaust timing
additional cranckase ventilation, maybe using disabled clean air system for source of scavenging pressure?
intake stacks, either 25 mm or 15 mm, probably 15 mm
lock up clutch and/or heavier clutch springs and spacers
suspension lowering blocks for front forks, lowering links for rear
steering damper
"race" air filter
speed delimiter - speedo healer - Muzzys Bonneville Pro - or...?
mirror block off plates
safety wire
best oil?
ceramic wheel bearings - worthwhile?
re-gear - what sprockets and chain?
personal diet and exercise regime

so, that is my tentative initial list, and a lot on that list can be done at little cost, particularly dialing in ignition and cam timing, heavier duty clutch springs and spring spacers are cheap, etc. I have a long cold winter ahead of me to work on bikes in my heated garage, and a degree wheel and dial indicator I am not afraid to use....

so, let's hear from everyone else, recomendations, warnings, etc.

Thanks
Paul

* Last updated by: laverda1200 on 11/8/2009 @ 1:08 PM *

I don't see how a radiator fan comes into play here. They only seem to be needed if you are stopped in traffic <grin>. I certainly wouldn't put a second one on... -bg

Rook ,I cant see how a properly maintained non o-ring chain is only good for 1500 miles .other then the o-ings there cant be any difference,I'm going to try one and will keep you guys posted.Laverda I believe you'll want the long stacks for top end,Brocks maxton map is for no flys ,race fuel 06/07 14.Hub is in favour of modding the stock filter(remove mesh)instead of BMC or K@N.

Rook ,I cant see how a properly maintained non o-ring chain is only good for 1500 miles

Come to think of it, it was a dirt bike forum i read that on. That might explain it. My bad.

Hi Darryle

this fuel injection stuff is new to me, but I have a ton of experience setting up carb equipped race engines. Om a carb setup at least, a longer intake stack usually gives more lower end and mid range power, shorter intake stacks usually are crappy for mid ramge, best for wide open throttle top end power. What I don't know yet is much about the ZX 14 air box design, resonant frequency, etc., and just a quick look indicates to me it isn't all that well sealed from the factory, I intend to be sure to seal the box airtight except for where the air is supposed to be coming in......

Paul

Hi bg

the Engine Ice and the second rad fan under consideration are intended to take into account that it is typically on the far side of hot on the salt, running wide open on the three mile course is going to be tough on the cooloing system at the end of the run as the engine heat soaks, probably best to let the engine idle after the run with the cooling system running full blast. That is my thinking, anyway.

Paul

Paul you are correct,the 25mm stack peaks around 7k, the 15mm peak at 10k,I would think you would want the 15mm for the salt flats. Darryle

Laverda, you should check out www.gearingcommander.com for gear ratios, you can plug in all kinds of info to find out the end results. Also keep in mind at the salt flats there is the issues of getting the power to ground.

Are you asking for a build that will exceed 200 mph?? or a build that will exceed 200 mph in 1 mile?

Either is difficult. In that budget, i would suggest possibly a set of cams and headwork (can be done for $1500 or less), brock's pipe (if you really want to stick to your budget, $700 used), ceramic wheel bearings and non o-ring chain (i'd guess around $500), power commander and speedohealer (or speed delimiter, about $500 for both). I'd also run a vortex 40t rear sprocket (around $50, its aluminum so its lighter and you'll need the -1 to acheive the mph).

At that point you should be ready to rock it. Fits right into your budget and should put any rider under 200lbs over 200 in a mile. If you're over 200... it depends on your riding ability.

I have been talking to a couple of people who ran different bikes at this past summer's Bub Motorycle Speed Event, and each said about the same thing, that the higher altitude of the salt flats, the heat, and the loss of traction of the salt, lops about 20 mph off the top end, typically, as a rough rule of thumb apparently. So, 200 mph on pavement, 180 mph on the salt? That might go a long way to explaining the 2008 national ZX 14 record on the salt of around 173 mph?

I tried on my one piece racing leathers the other day. They seem to have shrunk significatly while hanging in the closet....... I can't get them done up..... Probably the best performance bang for the buck would be for me to lose some weight! Presently I am around 220 pounds without gear, so my odds of breaking 200 mph on the salt (without a turbo) would seem rather low. I was chatting tonight with a woman who ran in the Bub Speed Trials this past summer, and at 105 pounds she is expressing an interest to have a go on my ZX 14 on the salt, so maybe she will have a better shot at getting closer to 200 mph on the salt than I will.

Thanks, mash, for the reference to the gearing calculator website, interesting stuff, looks like probably a stock front sprocket and around a 40 tooth rear sprocket should do the job, as slowninja also suggested.

Paul

Next question concerning gearing for 200 mph + on the salt.

stock sprockets are 17 tooth front, 41 tooth rear, which gives a ratio of 2.41 and a calculated top speed at 9,250 rpm of 281.6 kph. So, to reach a limiter of 300 kph, the engine obviously has to continue to rev past its power peak of 9,250 to much closer to its 11,000 rpm rev limit.

How far will the engine rev in top gear, does it have enough torque left to actually get to 11,000 rpm in 6th gear?

Using the gearingcommander website to calculate top speeds (not drag limited, just theoretical)in 6th gear, the following info results:

17/41 = 2.41 ratio = 281.6 kph @ 9,250 rpm STOCK, calculated 300 kph at roughly 9,400 rpm

17/40 = 2.35 ratio = 288.7 kph @ 9,250 rpm
17/39 = 2.29 ratio = 296.1 kph @ 9,250 rpm
18/41 = 2.27 ratio = 298.2 kph @ 9,250 rpm
18/40 = 2.20 ratio = 305.7 kph @ 9,250 rpm
18/39 = 2.17 ratio = 313.5 kph @ 9,250 rpm

where ratio is the number of turns of the front sprocket to turn the rear sprocket one complete revolution.

so, the question I am struggling with at the moment is how far past the 9,250 rpm power peak the ZX 14 engine will rev in 6th gear when battling against whatever amount of drag limitation there will be....? I don't know how to calculate the drag limit factor.

anyone have any experience or thoughts on the best gearing combination to actually have a shot at breaking 200 mph on the salt?

Paul

Brock at Maxton,17-40 ceramic bearings,clutch springs,speedo healer,MR10 race fuel,Hindle/brock Smeg custom map.0w40 oil,non o-ring chain and a 140 lb rider.Those were the only mods

thanks, Darryle

so I am going to order a 40 tooth rear and an 18 tooth front, that, in combination with the two existing stock sprockets, will give me the ability to adjust gear ratio from 2.41 stock, 2.35 as run by Brock with a much lighter rider than I am, as well as 2.27 and 2.20.

for wheel bearings, there are a number of variants of ceramic bearings. Looks like the ceramic bearings sold by some of the bike speed shops are hybrid ceramic with ceramic balls running in steel races. For more money, from specialty bearing suppliers, there are true ceramic bearings available, ceramic balls running in ceramic races, I will have to do a little more research. Anybody here expert concerning wheel bearings?

Paul

Wouldn't have any idea.

I still use stock bearings. lol

for wheel bearings, there are a number of variants of ceramic bearings. Looks like the ceramic bearings sold by some of the bike speed shops are hybrid ceramic with ceramic balls running in steel races. For more money, from specialty bearing suppliers, there are true ceramic bearings available, ceramic balls running in ceramic races, I will have to do a little more research.

2 types of ceramic bearing, hybrid ceramic bearing and full ceramic bearing, the hybrid ceramic bearing has steel inner and outer rings with ceramic balls, as for the full ceramic bearing; the inner, outer rings and the balls are made of ceramic. There are many kinds of ceramic materials, the most common ceramic materials are Si3N4 that stands for the silicon nitride ceramic material and is black colored, SiC stands for the silicon carbide material and also is black colored. and the ZrO2 that stands for the zirconium dioxide, also known as zirconia or zirconium oxide, they are white colored, a ZrO2 ball looks exactly like a pearl. the ceramic material is not stronger than steel, but ceramic bearing are lighter and have lower friction than steel, that makes ceramic bearing go faster with lower heat generated. Well, we have them all here, just browse our website and buy them online :)

* Last updated by: Romans on 11/15/2009 @ 7:47 PM *

Paul at Maxton Brock was hitting the rev limiter?govenor?Gearing to tall may be a problem due to loss of acceleration,17/40 in theory will hit 203.6 at 10500 rpm.Pavement will have less resistance then salt.What distance willyou have to reach top-end?

as I understand it, we will be running on the three mile course on the salt, with speed measured over a flying mile, so the bike will have at least a mile to reach top speed, then has to sustain top speed for a mile, then has a mike to get slowed down again.

Paul

* Last updated by: laverda1200 on 11/17/2009 @ 1:34 PM *

Never had a problem with heat at track days. Plenty of air flow!!!!
Shouldnt be a problem at Bonneville except while idling about.
Engine Ice is a waste. Use Prestone LoTox, same thing. Twice the product at 1/2 price.
From what I've read in various tests, straight water with water wetter is the coolest.
Do your own research about that.

Curious if a bike would have to be remapped to run at 4000 ft if it was tuned at sea level??

Curious if a bike would have to be remapped to run at 4000 ft if it was tuned at sea level??

The higher in elevation you go, the more air expands. You have the piggy jetted for sea level with lots of [oxygen] molecules close together, so that is fuel banging time.

The higher you climb, the farther away it is to bang the next molecule. You then jet down to a more leaner fuel trim.

This bike runs 'open loop' with the atmo sensor under the seat. It knows you are going to rise in elevation. Plus, the intake air sensor is going to suck less [air/same volume] in the chamber. The vacuum pulsed a pressure on the wafer [like your ear drum adjusts to elevation or diving in deep water] will let the ECU know to lean out. But, the piggy [sea level set] still has the fat numbers tumbling on the slight rich side is richer even still.

Bring a rolling dyno chassis and spool up that engine w/new piggy mapped @4K elevation.
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I see that front wheel at 200 plus flying a direct shot into that scoop is a ton of salt. Say a diverter might not murder your engine is salt up that air cleaner I would think. If element removed, then salt peter my pistons is that entry. My bike now, I can pull the stock air cleaner, have those big air canisters ready to go kind of race ready for, dirt/street/salt/sand = Open Ram.

For 200 plus, ceramic/ceramic is fore and aft, w/sprocket carrier included. And this type assembly is not a shock & blow hammer/race installer reassembly. This is done in a press/propane torch kind of install, so as not to shatter or chip what is glass no matter how you look at it.

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After the clock triggers, the cool down mile begins, I'd roll off the throttle, not snap it closed. I'd more keep the throttle on, slowly rise and keep it in 6th putting back to the pit or moving away from the race course. The slower the water moves, the quicker the heat release. You aim for lower gears, this will raise the rpm and keep pushing the hot tube of water.

Don't cheat. Play by the rules so if you do break a speed mark, it's official according to their regulations.

Just jump to this side of the forum, I have the 09 SE, it's cold outside so that means it is time to take The Beast to the SHOP. Still stock going with 4 / 2 / 1 Brock Full System. PC3. This is a start for me what next? I need some input from you guys. THANKS