On 1/26/2010 at 9:11AM I (username: admiralman) posted an entry onto a motorcycle forum that I often frequent (www.zx14ninjaforum.com). This entry stated that I wanted to buy (WTB) a set of side panels (referred to in ZX14 circles as “Foreman Grills”) from another member. I was specific in my post stating the color that I was looking for was “Flat Black”.

On 2/2/2010 at 2:31PM a member identifying themselves as username:alaskarider stated that he had a pair that he would sell me for $50 including shipping and would accept payment via PayPal.
These statements are irrefutable per Exhibit 1 here

I contacted alaskarider utilizing the Private Messenging (PM) system employed on the forum website with the following email:

From: "admin@zx14ninjaforum.com" <admin@zx14ninjaforum.com>
To:
Sent: Tue, February 2, 2010 3:49:01 PM
Subject: Private message from zx14ninjaforum.com member admiralman
In response to your foreman's that are for sale...I just wanted to verify a couple of things. They are flat black...correct? Additionally, are there any scratches on them?

To which alaskarider responded:

From alaskarider (I replaced his email address)
dateTue, Feb 2, 2010 at 11:58 PM
subjectRe: Private message from zx14ninjaforum.com member admiralman
mailed-byyahoo.com
signed-byyahoo.com
hide details Feb 2
they are flat black and no scratches. I'll tell you what, I will post some close up photos tomorrow night.

In the meantime, after alaskarider contacted me about my post he created his own post on 2/2/10 at 4:36PM advertising the sale of “Black Foreman Grills” per Exhibit here

I looked at the photos that were posted on the forum and from what I could tell from the photo everything that alaskarider said in his previous emails were true and I sent him the payment via email on 2/4/2010 at 9:16AM and informed him of the payment. Subsequently at 9:33AM the same day he informed me that he would get them in the mail at lunchtime.

On 2/6/2010 I sent him an email asking if the product was in the mail to which he responded that in fact he had not yet sent it due to another issue but would get it out that day.

I received the tracking information for the package on 2/6/2010 and received the actual product on 2/8/2010. I took them out of box and from the initial look they appeared to be as advertised and set them aside.

I didn’t have a chance to get back to them until 2/12/10 at which time I washed them to remove some road grime and installed one onto my motorcycle. At this time I realized that these were not FLAT BLACK but rather a Satin and did not match my motorcycle as expected. Not being sure if I may be in error I contacted a few other members on the forum to verify that the “FLAT BLACK” panels should in fact be “FLAT BLACK” and match my motorcycle frame perfectly. They verified that was the case. This verification process took a few days due to some problems I had with the forum’s messaging system. On 2/18/2010 I sent a PM to alaskarider and did not hear a response and thought I should also send an email due to previous PM problems. This is the email I sent:

From Chris Mancini
To alaskarider (I replaced his email address)
dateThu, Feb 18, 2010 at 8:18 AM
subjectRe: Private message from zx14ninjaforum.com member admiralman
mailed-bygmail.com
hide details 8:18 AM (5 hours ago)
Allen,
I sent you a PM from the forum this morning. I have had problems with the PM system so I am duplicating that message herein.
Basically, I received the foreman grills you sold me and cleaned them up prior to putting one on my bike. There was some road grime on them...no biggie. Quality wise, the grills were as advertised with the small ding you mentioned that should not be noticeable once installed. However, I instantly noticed that the grills were not Flat Black but were satin and had a higher sheen than what I was expecting. As I mentioned in my PM, I wouldn't normally request to return them for a refund but my post specifically requested the FLAT black foremans to which you responded is what you had. With that, are your willing to accept these as a return and refund me the $50 I paid for them and I will pay for the return shipping as you initially paid to send them to me? Please let me know as soon as possible so that we can resolve this issue. Thanks.
Chris

From there, several emails were exchanged stating inaccuracies on his part. For instance, this once which the snapshots clearly refute:

from alaskarider (I replaced his email address)
to admiralman (replaced)
dateThu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:11 AM
subjectRe: Private message from zx14ninjaforum.com member admiralman
mailed-byyahoo.com
signed-byyahoo.com
hide details 9:11 AM (4 hours ago)
remember Chris you responded to my posting of grills for sale. I posted the photos. I didn't respond to your posting.

My response to this was the following and the attachment was Exhibit 1.

I beg to differ...you responded to my post on Feb 2nd stating that you had what I was looking for which were in fact FLAT BLACK FOREMAN GRILLS. Reference the attached snapshot. Additionally, when I sent you an email asking if they were in fact Flat Black you responded that they were. See the below email from 2/2. Yes, you did post pictures on the forums but I think you can agree that it is rather difficult to tell the difference between satin sheen black and flat black on a picture such as that. I took your word for it in the email below. As far as it taking a few days, I wanted to make sure that these were in fact not the flat black version before I asked for the return. I have never seen the flat black versus the satin sheen black in person so I wanted to verify that these were in fact not flat black before I approached you. I confirmed with a few members that the flat black should be the same color as the frame. I'm willing to write this off as a simple mistake if you are and am trying to be as civil and compromising as possible.

After a few more back and forth the following email shows that he “self admittedly” did not know what he was selling and the responsibility fell on my to determine via a posted picture if they were “FLAT Black” even after I specifically asked up front in the first email:

From alaskarider (I replaced his email address)
To admiralman (replaced)
dateThu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:27 AM
subjectRe: Private message from zx14ninjaforum.com member admiralman
mailed-byyahoo.com
signed-byyahoo.com
hide details 11:27 AM (2 hours ago)

If you the buyer are unable to tell the difference after a week, how the heck do you think I can tell what you want. They look flat black to me. that is why I posted the photo. So there would be no question.Think about it. you couldn't tell from a close up photo. you couldn't tell from examining it upon receipt. so it sounds like you didn't know what you wanted. if you did you could have knownfrom the photo.
But think about it from my side. I posted a photo and sent you what I posted. After the sale you requested I send it with a tracking number which meant I had to go to the post offffice. It cost about 12 bucks to send it and about a gallon of gas. now you want me to refund the 50 clams because even you couldn't tell what shade of black you wanted until you waited a week. No refund. I sent the grills I posted. I am not screwing with this any further. I am sorry you aren't happy but I did what I promised to do.

So, basically I was willing to work to make this thing right and set things square for the both of us. The only money we would be out would be the $12 to ship the item and the gas to get to the Post office. Unfortunately, even though he made the mistake of not knowing his product he was not willing to budge. With that I would highly suggest if you plan on buying from this guy be prepared for the worst.

Caveat Emptor people.

Finally, I have no choice but to put this issue in dispute with my credit card company.

* Last updated by: admiralman on 2/18/2010 @ 2:15 PM *

I can only say...it did sound civil-so that's good.However...personally,I've NEVER heard of a "flat black" side cover.Satin black is the only one I've heard of.If a guy didn't know what they were categorized from Kawasaki,"flat black" and "satin black" would mean virtually nothing IMO.I don't think Alaskarider was trying to deceive ya.If I didn't know the nomenclature of the part,I could easily refer to it as "flat black",and be completely sincere in my judgement.....there are some gloss covers out there-so perhaps Alaskarider was comparing the two finishes and thinking his WAS flat black?I mean-it does look flat black-who would think of "satin black" unless they were knowledgeable about the Kawasaki part description.You could always get them painted flat black-that would work okay-and just chalk it up to a misunderstanding?Just tryin to see both sides.Honest mistake it seems to me?Even at 50 bucks(plus some paint),it still was a decent deal?I looked on a parts fiche and those side panels are minimum $44.00 each.NOT including the pad underneath-another 7 dollars for that.I think Alaskrider was on the up and up Bro.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 2/18/2010 @ 3:30 PM *

Fair enough and I completely understand. I have no problem with that fact. The unwillingness to work to make things right was my issue. I confirmed with Anamosity that his are flat black and match his frame perfectly which is Flat Black...confirmed by Colorite. Like I said, I was willing to make it financially fair for both parties but there was not the same willingness on the other side. As far as civil...it was until today when I asked for the refund. There are several emails that I did not post for brevity's sake.

I'm really not trying to justify my position here. I just wanted to warn everyone else. The reason I posted what I did was so that everyone knew I wasn't just coming at a fellow member half cocked, for the hell of it.

What year is Animosity's bike?The persimmon red and black?

At least you have something to show for your $50 , you could always relist them and sell them to someone else.

my 08 se that is supposed to be flat black is actually a satin finish. sorry bout your 2's trouble hope you guys can get past this.

I'm not sure that there IS a flat black description of ANY year ZX14 part-They're like all the same color on the subframes and stuff aren't they?Black...but I don't think listed as "flat black".I looked up the 08's,and the 07's-09's and 10's trying to see if the parts description for the side covers was different.On any color offered for those years.I did not see a "flat black" OR "satin finish" description....only "blk".(listed under "frame fittings")How many here know the real description of those parts?I know I didn't.Yet we call em foreman grills all the time-and everyone assumes that's what we're talking about.So it would be easy to conclude they were "flat black"...as opposed to a gloss finish,yes?

* Last updated by: blue07 on 2/18/2010 @ 4:04 PM *

blue i chec em out on the oem schematics at bikebandit.com all the plastics were flat blk or satin but foremans didnt give a choice a flat or satin so i dunno

put ya a set of c/f frame covers on and youll never know the difference plus they hide all those ugly holes in the frame

Ya-that's what I mean-only called "blk".If someone asked about "side cover knee grips"...I wonder how many people with our bikes would actually KNOW that's the "foreman"?People call parts on these bikes by different names all the time.And there's plenty of ambiguity when guys are sometimes tryin to describe what they're talkin about.So sayin "yeah,they're flat black" could easily and honestly be in the eye of the beholder.

Hey Scott-I aint gettin NO MORE CF....got the belly panels(here we go,see?)I mean,"lower fairings,flat satin blk",comin this next week-that's ALL!!!!!

* Last updated by: blue07 on 2/18/2010 @ 4:13 PM *

Scotty...thanks but I'm not a C/F guy.

Blue...you are absolutely right on man. I couldn't agree with your more. So many people have so many parts on their bikes from so many different places it hard to know what everyone is talking about. That's why my post was specific and I asked again when I emailed him. Granted and I don't blame him at all for it not being the flat black and I told him so. Hell, that's part of the reason I took a while to get back to him. I wanted to make sure that he really didn't give me what I was asking for. If the shoe was on the other foot, I was more than willing to eat my mistake and move on. However, I guess I expect the same courtesy from someone else knowing the situation especially when I try to put everything back on an even keel. But the whole thing about, I should've known by looking at the picture, I took too long, I just didn't want them was pretty ridiculous in my mind and pretty much goes against the spirit of us all selling items within the forum amongst ourselves. There's a certain amount trust that is involved in these types of transactions you know? And with that, I felt I was willing to make things right...but here we are..

Anyway, here is the flat black...you can see where it matches the frame perfectly. I'll snap a picture of mine tonight to show the difference.

* Last updated by: admiralman on 2/18/2010 @ 4:19 PM *

admiralman looks like youve got a lil exaust leakage going on under there may wanna tighten that bad boy up a lil bit sweet ride though

hey blue when you gettin that c/f front fender...lol

....I would like to get my fork covers c/f'd though You know Admiral-you are also correct.Wish ya'll could get it worked out.And yeah,I'm lookin at that silver zx there(yours?...SHWEET MAN)...and the frame actually looks flat black from this view.My swingarms are black,satin kinda black.Yours(?) have no gloss.Ya-there is a difference there alright.Unfortunately,I'm thinkin that all the ninjas with the black foremans are all the same blk color though.So I don't know what you can do,except paint em-couldn't be that hard or expensive could it-and you did get a good deal,yes?Heck-I'd just paint em an call it good.Alaska didn't mean any harm ya think?(course,I don't know the mood between your later exchanges with him,so,I'll just shut up now!).Sorry it didn't work out just as you wanted.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 2/18/2010 @ 6:02 PM *

havent seen any of those. get ya a sheet of c/f sticky and cover them lmao

Listen Scott-I aint ridin no safety-wired,duct taped "lamecyle" here.She's a 14 fer God's sake...got to be the real deal or NOTHIN!!!!! BTW-I just got back from a kicker ride-ya-bike's runnin so friggin good I can hardly wait for TOMORROW!!!!!! ...And Admiral-okay-that pic there-ya-she's matching perfect-so WHERE did that one come from?With the bike?If so,ya-you could probably sell those ones you now have,and get THOSE OTHER ONES(for a bit more I suppose off an OEM parts supplier).Lots of people are buyin the Grills to paint up and such.You'll probably sell em quick!.......Scotty-that's NOT Admiralman's bikeLMAO!!!!Nor is that his exhaust leak-it's someone else's problem!!(but good lookin out anywho!)

That's NOT your bike,is it Admiralman?

* Last updated by: blue07 on 2/18/2010 @ 5:31 PM *

lol yea cause i was thinkin after posting that last comment.. if those matched so good wtf happened to em my bad well let whoever owns that bike they need to do some wrenchin lol

Here is a picture of the Silver 14 with Flat black panels...notice how it matches the frame...

Here is mine with the black panels that are not Flat Black...notice how its not even close to the frame

Any Questions?

* Last updated by: admiralman on 2/18/2010 @ 8:42 PM *

Okay,so what year and color did these come off of?Because your bike frame looks exactly like mine-but I wouldn't call it flat black-it's got a bit of a "clearcoat" if I could use that term over it(mine).Can you get a different angle on your frame there,so the light is kinda reflecting off the body parts there.If I look straight on at my frame,it will appear black,like yours-but if I look at it at some different angles,at times it doesn't look full on blk at all....kind of a deep deep almost black green color.Yet it's blk.Your grills are DEFINITELY gloss-maybe off a monster 14?My battery cover definitely has a clearcoat on it,but it's blk like the rest of my frame.Same with the engine case.Blk but slightly glossed(very small amount).

* Last updated by: blue07 on 2/18/2010 @ 9:18 PM *

WOW, admiralman, I see where all your pain is coming from. That is not right looking.
When I started reading this I had to go out to he garage to see if mine matched as well as I remembered.
Mine look natural, yours looks SHINY!

Ya-I've not seen any like those-maybe an aftermarket knock-off?Do they have the pads behind em?Is it possible that they were buffed out with something.Those are definitely not what you wanted I can see that-and Alaskarider should have been able to see the difference as well I would think?What do I know?Looks factory to me-but off which model and year?

* Last updated by: blue07 on 2/18/2010 @ 9:24 PM *

Hey Admiralman-okay-I've got a set of carbon fiber panels coming-probably be here within two weeks.I won't need my stock panels.So.......Do you want them?Here's the catch.......FREE.They look just like those ones in the pic of the silver bike,"flat black" as it were.Definitely NOT shiny.They're the stock blk.Let me know.If you can hold out for a week or so,they're yours!Here they are...

They are definitely the same blk color as the silver bikes'....but you can see,in the light,how the three black areas all look a bit different in color-even though they're the same actually!But these should work fine for ya.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 2/19/2010 @ 1:49 AM *

just take a lil aurmorall to the frame they'll match right up...lol sorry man , blue yours look just like his admiral you sure the guys that matches perfect didnt paint em to be that way?