Gentlemen-

I continue to "tweak" the Map for my Two Bros full pipe. I have made some very good progress, but I continue to have a pop on decel right at about 3600-3800 rpm. I am trying to gather any expert advice on suggestions to work this out. For example....riding up on RPMs but not screaming, let's say 5k+ down a street, then downshifting or rolling off to sweep into a turn. Motor drags the bike down, but not extremely hard and bang! Pops like a .22 once maybe twice.
Does anyone know what is taking place in the EFI around this RPM range? The secondaries are already closed? Or perhaps in the process of closing during this transition? Do any of you with full systems experience an issue in this range?

Just thought I'd ask. On the positive side, the bike is getting deadly snappy on low end, and pulls pretty clean all through out. I am planning on getting it as close to perfect as I can, and then return to the Dyno to see how I did.

Thanks guys-

Red

Red, This is going to be complicated to explain but if you are going to play with the bike, begin to hear noises, you are going to have to live with your mods two ways:

1. I mod for performance, economy and driveability.
2. I mod for christ sakes, every bridge and a jump is doing it so am I have no clue so pop the shit... WATT was that? What the fuck is with the popping?

Modder 1: No one told you about the popping?
Modder 2: I followed you and you said, she said, he said.

Modder 1: I said to do your thing, jump off a bridge with the other can throwers and now you go WOT you got.
Modder 2: You know, I'd like to put a muffler on your mouth I'm just asking a question.

Modder 1: Well you variable mother fucker, you come crying about some pop is natural like for every reaction.
Modder 2: Yeah well, I'd like a plain sim pull answer if you don't mind.

Modder 1: Oh, but you won't like that answer and you'll begin to love your pop.
Modder 2: You don't mean I can't un-pop some cork and let out the cats from the bag of pop'inn fresh dough...

Modder 1: ... I don't care how much you throw at that pop I would not back off on the gas there is your answer.
Modder 2: WTF!?

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ModderFackareHere: WATT? You didn't like my answer?
HereWegoagainHere: WOT do you mean by complicated?

ModderFackareHere: We go again. You limp you lose.
HereWegoagainHere: At the same spot again I see. So watt is it?

ModderFackareHere: Is a limp you think you have some bottom grunt.
HereWegoagainHere: Is more you mean?

ModderFackareHere: You take that hack of a limp to depop the pop.
HereWegoagainHere: It was running so well and now you are telling me...

ModderFackareHere: Take the hack, see watt it does to the tune.
HereWegoagainHere: Just do it and jump the bridge with everyone else that rides a slower bike now?

ModderFackareHere: I thought you were tuning up the bike and now I explain the complex it lowers the tune.
HereWegoagainHere: I don't think I want it then. Will it ruin my tune as I have it now?

ModderFackareHere: Is a try and when I say try, you wipe that map you have away is start all over again or..
HereWegoagainHere: You mean, bring my laptop to a zoo and let a monkey pick the X to Y on the map?

ModderFackareHere: Take some fruit with you. Make sure he gets a lunch break building map.
HereWegoagainHere: I don't know about this place.

Someone tell him... I can't type those 3 letters.

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Red, You have two kinds of ign/fuel timing. One is a safe code, or a limp, say one sensor fails. If no sensors fail, there is full power, no, 'we coded your bike so you can have that limp addressed. Once that repair is corrected, only then will you receive full power.

Now that you kind of digested what kind of modder you are, I can tell you to run a limp, but that power is going to drop. I can tell you it will be set to have a minimum of pop, not eliminate it. It also has a code set on the dash and you may lose your shift select window.

With all that tuning, you hack the gear position sensor, that map is for naught. Instead of a lean and clean 18:1 AFR, you trigger that code, it richens up to 16.5:1 AFR. You might as well call it the 'decel code' that sort of helps the pop out.

You lift, it richens up. There goes your gas mileage and you can't clean up lift on the PC, right? So, every time you roll off the gas, she will send in that richer mix to the pop. Maybe you might want to change maps to match the code? Maybe you want to lean out the PC map; just so you break even on the other lift mod if you so choose to use it.

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Ignore hub.. thats a bunch of hubbish.

Did you block your pair valve thing? There's a tube that goes into your airbox, you have to pull that tube out, plug the tube and plug the air box. It generally stops the decel pop

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Thank you Gentlemen-

I blocked the tube right after I installed the pipes, and put it back on (In essence blocking off both tube and airbox). I expect that I am mildly too rich above, and it is causing the decel pop, but I haven't quite narrowed it down to what will remedy it.

Any suggestions help. I just installed a P1 Tip, (Took the P1x out because it was TOO quite), so I intend on tuning to this and calling it good. Un-capped the 2 Bros was very loud, the P1 tones it down just enough. The P1x made it sound like an old SS2r.

Thanks again-

Red

* Last updated by: Red14 on 8/28/2011 @ 5:20 AM *

Any suggestions help.

TRE 006A will stop the fuel cut on de cell. No more POP. Promise. But Gear indicator gone. boooo. And secondary throttle plates must be removed.

I do believe it can be 'mapped' out to 'almost' zero backfire.But possibly NOT completely.

I have made over 200 hundred maps trying and I could never do it. That sentence above made be crazy in 2007 and I spent a summer trying to map it out. Believe me I do NOT give up easily but I failed. I see Red your on the same path I was.

I expect that I am mildly too rich above, and it is causing the decel pop,

When your winding down in the rpm the bikes computer turns fuel off then back on at 36 to 3800 RPM and Boom. It's not a problem so don't worry. I just hated it. No one likes explosions in there New pipes but it is the Nature of the beast. Sorry 4 the bad news. I hope this helps in some way. Cheers.

* Last updated by: Romans on 8/30/2011 @ 9:50 AM *

Red, I'm just breaking you in by the book. Where you watching the band leader's swing of the OEM's music map? Lift at the end of the video = 18 AFR ~ FI goes lean to send you back down to idle, the TPS is closed, correct?
That is standard soft setting in normal hubbishrubbish mode.

The hard setting or the code set or the limp set or the backup setting; sets a rich 16.5:1 AFR = Rich no POP! How do you get there? One way to set the a-N or the hard-set is to short the GPS wire. This is if, you were reading the hubbish rubbishrubbing you along.

And WOT about that PAIR switch. Does that not send in fresh air as in lean it out again from the hard set? Slight pop, no? Slow, would you not disable PAIR or the lean-switch from the loop? However, you set a [gps] limp to the ignition to that air conditioner; kind of protects that redundancy this way. Now you are at base ignition curve or the fast get it up to advance like eliminate the linear effect of the smoother soft set. This "hard" set is better known as the, 'jerk-snatch-hit-twitch' kind of ignition curve me faster to the same advance curve. Something like past 1,800 rpm or more? More like it snaps there you tap that throttle open.

You have to watch the fuel curve of the bike's base moves, no? Or you throw fuel over fuel on the hard set, no? Make hubbishow the rubbislow some video already, slow... I have access to a dyno as soon as the guy opens up. WOT schedule? If I had a Pee See watt I could do to the x to y it try it I would.

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Kind of 'follow the pop' this way:

If it is lean; The pop is instant, under low speed, crack the throttle it pops = Lean.
The pop is way longer down the higher rpm range and if it pops at high rpm on lift = Rich.

You dyno boys correct me if I'm wrong. That is WOTheWATT I heard on mule2 w/fatter injectors [no pig in loop].

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Red I have the TRE 006A and Hub has or did have a home made resistor(45 Kilo ohm ?)in play. No back fire. Hub you still have ?

Yep Romes, both hacks wired up on the gps. No need to remove battery lead (blue, you, you) when the ping goes right back to stock from the hack I toggle it off. That one locked 6th hack at the dash sends the bike on a short stick pulling cart. You feel this grunt on the bottom but that mid to top is going to get hurt from it.

The other gps hit has to do with the sub-shaft making moves to shut down the bike with the remote air blades. You have to either remove the subthrottle plates or tie them open and modify the stepper motor (actuator) so it still shuts down the subs but in a phantom way is exploit the air coming in.

Slow let me explain it another way... Why would you want to run the ignition curve in a, "Check Base Timing" kind of situation? Ever tune old ECM cars, Install the last of the distributors down the back of the intake manifold of a GM car? You needed to short the distributor timing via using safety/mechanic's wire or use a bent paper clip to touch the prongs? And that little guy was on the right side of the inner kick panel or by the glove compartment... Not the OBD-II connector under the dash near the parking brake handle area on the left side.

And when the kid at weirdwaysingworld gets it wrong sort of has to add the lag plates in about 5 different bikes I can tell, [by the road test reports or gets the press kit wrong] and he is all about that stupid ignition, where it is a blend of sub/ign lagging your ass is. This too, acts the 'check base timing' slows your ass down and you PC the shit back to stock HP... Nice!

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No way, Red. I think any farther you begin to overheat, meaning; to remove the pop. I went through the gutted pipe and a pronounced pop. I then set either GPS wire short. Did one quiet the pop? Somewhat. Would the PAIR off help? Somewhat, but do not expect to hear that pop leave. My video 'pop runs' tell me; you can decrease the pop, but that camera still picked up a pop none the less. Could I hear both? Yes you can hear both. One you'd need the camera or set your head near the pipe and lift. Then you might hear that second pop on the PAIRemoval, helmet off.

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Damn. This is NOT good news. I am about done with this entirely. I cannot believe that every option available results in loosing something else. Perhaps it was this way on some of my other bikes, but I honestly cannot remember one that has been so continuously frustrating. You guys will scold me mercilessly for this I'm sure, but I never had any issues such as this on my Busa. Every single mod was a marked improvement, and I never looked back.
I dropped a thousand bucks on a pipe and a PCV all in the name of cooling the freakin thing down a bit, and all I have gotten is aggravation. IF I decide to keep this thing and buy a TRE...What will the gear indicator display? Does it stick on a particular gear? Many bikes consider the TRE a performance gain, would you guys agree?

By the way....thank you all very much for the explanations. I would've chased that pop until time ended if you folks wouldn't have broken it to me about the fuel cut off right @ 36-3800. That sounds like the issue exactly.

Anyone have anything other than positives to say about the TRE? Or perhaps I should cut my losses turn it back to stock and bide my time till I can afford to lose my ass trading it in? LOL.

Red

By the way....thank you all very much for the explanations. I would've chased that pop until time ended if you folks wouldn't have broken it to me about the fuel cut off right @ 36-3800. That sounds like the issue exactly.

Your going through what I went through and many others. You have two choices blip the throttle just before your back fire zone will stop your pop(sometimes) or if it's really important spend the 50 bucks and be done with it.

IF I decide to keep this thing and buy a TRE...What will the gear indicator display?

I have two Zx-14s. The 07 model will show a minus sign with the TRE installed and the 2010 shows nothing inside Square box it's blank. I know you are discourage but you will get passed it. Take your flies out and have some fun. She loves her mods.

Stop trying to fix the back fire. It will make you nuts. Ask me How I know lol.

Gel pro sells a TRE with gear display. or they used to.

I cannot believe that every option available results in loosing something else. Perhaps it was this way on some of my other bikes, but I honestly cannot remember one that has been so continuously frustrating.

This baby is digitally super sensitive. You will easily find at least 3 if not 5 hidden variables you have to clean up. Why do you think that bike comes out of the crate without a glitch to be had.

You guys will scold me mercilessly for this I'm sure, but I never had any issues such as this on my Busa. Every single mod was a marked improvement, and I never looked back.

Bringing up that shit0piece of an ancient electronicrap... You wish you had 3 more problems to solve you mess with teacupull a wire, it will show you what is WATThe hose sea fat did you say? Once the 14 came out, there were more mods trying to chase that 14 with no luck. Is not a Busa third in line now? I'm not done yet... More scolding to come.

I dropped a thousand bucks on a pipe and a PCV all in the name of cooling the freakin thing down a bit, and all I have gotten is aggravation.

I dropped the coin like half that for a pig and more stock pipes. Oh, but you wasted even more... Ha! Don't tell me about the coin dropped into the busa and a stock 14 walks away from them. You could of had a 14 with zero coin drop. Ha! I see you are noticing the more you drop, stock for stock, shes no match. Close the wallet, you are done messing with a 14.

IF I decide to keep this thing and buy a TRE...What will the gear indicator display? Does it stick on a particular gear? Many bikes consider the TRE a performance gain, would you guys agree?

It will display a 6 usually. In the book, it says we will set the limp or the base timing till you fix that puppy. Keep the air conditioner off HA! Yes, here we go again. Did you make a move and now here come the amigos sort of square that low launch away. I sea wear out this bike is so freak'inn sweet-sweet-seaweed the cars like ship to shore is they begin to floor it and I begin to WOThis baby home. I look in the mirror and no shit did I gain county line I see a hole.

That fucking tre would no do what this baby can do is come get some. Watt a fluffing fucking difference! You will waste your money and park it take a poll. Start a poll, see how many sold, parked, did try, rather like it stock. And I mean if you are pulling away from car for overall performance?; Stock is it. Now, you want to waste more money on a limp, go for it. I just came back from a night run just now. Did I have that limp set? Yep. And before I start the bike, I look all around the bike to make sure I have zero limp and turn them off.

Because, I keep throwing the limp on just to feel that slight limp at the bottom, but when it is off, this bike does what it was suppose to do. It shuts down anyone that wants to keep up I keep stepping it up and they standown. Bone stock is this bike. Amazing how well this thing ran with some cool air tonight. I suit up for winter riding, so I wait for the sun to go down when it is too hot to ride... Padded for some fastuff.

Anyone have anything other than positives to say about the TRE? Or perhaps I should cut my losses turn it back to stock and bide my time till I can afford to lose my ass trading it in? LOL.

How many more mods you gonna waste your time with, if I wasted enough time with this one. Every stinking mod went nowhere. Only mod that went someplace is a throttle sync. Right out the crate, I removed the flies, cut the pipe or went 4-in-1 with the modded pipe. Ran fatter injectors and it flat ran in the 11:1 AFR. No hp made. Every mode was more I lost HP or torque. Then, back to stock to clear my head.

Tonight was one more reinforcement that stock gets the mirror work done. Better gas mileage and all. Blue will be here shortly to tell you how he reverted back to stock I think? He might agree that stock ran much better than all that nagging mods. Who knows?

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It will display a 6 usually.

The TRE008 is for faster fly opening and will display a 6 but the TRE006A which stops the Fuel Cut and the Back Fire shows different in the display window. You will see a minus sign or a Blank depending on your year.

Faster fly opening? No it's not. It will close the subs. It's nasty chin bang. "You can't run the 0h-wattever, you'll need the flies out" is the quote for that mod, right?

I've tried it as a plain old code failure [yank the gps connectors apart]. Thing about air gapped my ass off the seat I tried a handful.

Red, apply chinbang/assgap/ignition curve/oh-wattever number you use is walletricked you again!

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Faster fly opening? No it's not. It will close the subs.

Hub the boys that cracked into the ECU reported that there was no timing change by gear and only thing that gets effected by gear is the secondary fly opening rate or speed in which the fliies open.
Also a neutral lock or the TRE006A effects fuel Cut and as the bike is in (N) flies will not open. This is why they must be removed. Where they wrong ?

If Red here takes his flies out and does a TRE006A install what he is not happy about in the ZX-14 will be gone correct ? Only prob is he will lose his gear indicator and if that's a biggy Gel-Pro has him covered. 50 bucks 4 the hack to be happy seems cheap in the grand scheme of what we spend on our toys.

I was exactly where he was when my bike was new. I know Now, it was no big deal and was easy to work with. I'm only trying to help and I'm not trying to confuse him.

I still run the TRE006A 4 years later. You welcome to ride. If it was slow I would have done whatever it takes to fix, of that you can be sure. All Good. Red if you don't like you can remove. Cheers.

LOL. I knew if I mentioned a Hayabusa on here I would get rashed. Meant no harm by it and I appreciate Hub setting me straight! If I am reading you correctly, you keep your bike in what you call "limp" most of the time, except for your midnight runs? So if I installed a TRE to rid myself of this annoyance the majority of the time, I could do the same, correct?
I spoke to my buddy yesterday who has the dyno, and called another contact whose 14 is making 188 rear wheel with no back fires (Yep...he runs the TRE), and clean rideability. I'm going to take tomorrow off work and spend the day at the shop hopefully setting this thing straight. We are going over to Brock's and picking up a tre for testing purposes. If it all works I will be pleased as punch.
I also called and rescinded my "extended" warranty that I bought in haste the day I got her. Felt nice to get the $920 bucks back and clear the rode. We are going to pull the flies tomorrow as well.

So....after the other day's venting, and thanks to your guys input, I am all prepared to attack it again. To be sure, I will keep EVERY single stock piece as I think Hub is on to something. So far I was much happier with the stock machine than I have been since the mods. I believe I will keep that as an option readily at hand.

Thanks again all-

Red

Hey, I am no brand beater. I just play that game. Besides, I'd probably circle right back to stock on the Busa too. I take that back. I'm beating up Aprilia something bad. I love that little bike, but it only has one or two glitches and it really is minor... After I'm done with it. So, I raz Ape too.

I have a direct hit going another way of the tre. I lose the shift window to 6-locked and the flashing FI comes on. The one you will setup will only affect the shift window viewing 6 only. If you were conditioned without that window, it would not be an issue. Look at it like saddle bags left home... You wish you could pop your jacket, helmet, gloves in and walk away. But if you never owned a bagger? Then who is spoiled?

Yes, I have the one [wire] on/offuel cut to the GPS. The other [wire] I cannot use. I'll chin-drop-ass-gap I hit that toggle. My fly is closed, I mean, the subs were never removed in this throttle body I have in the bike now. I should shoot a video of the actuator ass-gap in action. Romes, I knew the cultural shock once I saw my ignition and jetting being locked up in a black box. I can't get in is my point. Both sub and ignition work together. That GPS shift also triggers the ignition with the subs. Cant remove one from the other. It's why you feel nothing between transitions. That crank is the fluctuating ignition timing at work. Any little hit of that TPS, that ignition flutters. Any hack on the fly, that ignition retards you can feel it change to the limp as it goes right back to that same full advance. It is making a lot of crazy advance moves I cant feel under me as well. It's that smooth running which is amazing about FI.

Only one place to go if it is not running stock is that backup limp you are going for, Red. There are a ton of different [tiny tunes] I can get out of this bike. All I do is mess with one variable, it tunes that way. I go tre hunting and it tunes this way. You are going to go, "Bonk-Gears" with your tre hit. You might pull it and switch over or remain with the hit. It's a change in tune for sure.

Watt I came to is that, yes, I feel your frustration. But once I ran this bike with so many fly/tre/injector/pig setting runs, I can always revert back to stock. As if I made my own mode switch before it came out as standard equipment... Me/You are stuck mode switching with a tre is how to describe it. Damn, my bike runs flawless no hack, no code, no nothing going on but out of the crate with a book sycn.

Happy Hunting, Red.

Mine idles a slow 900 rpm so I can run deep into a turn, not hop the rear tire I could run dead-stick, but this is a street bike. If you chase all that shit, not sync after your mods... I'm going to gobble you up withistocker!

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Romes, I knew the cultural shock once I saw my ignition and jetting being locked up in a black box. I can't get in is my point. Both sub and ignition work together.

I wish you would get one of those hacked ECUs with the software. Looking inside magic box would be sweet.

I can't find the post but what I read was the ignition was by RPM. Your on all those sites. You 2 must have read that as well ?

So, that being said, bike bike with TRE installed before and after equals ,,,,,,,, No Diff,,,,, except No Back Fire and down 50 bucks or 6 cents.

contact whose 14 is making 188 rear wheel with no back fires (Yep...he runs the TRE), and clean rideability.

No fuel cut in and out of the corners is sweet. Just sayin. Tried in and out many times. TRE can be removed at any time to check,,,, your own findings may be diff. As you can see it's not for every one.

I think The Hubster still has his in but likes the stock approach lol.

All-

Took time off work today. Spent all day at my buddies shop working on bikes and toying with the 14 when I had a chance. Ran out of time before we could put her back on the dyno, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt....FLIES OUT (Yes...even on a 2010 model), and no questions about it...the TRE006a from Ivans (via Brocks).

Before I left this morning I put the map from my earlier dyno tune back in. The bike was pretty soft on the way over, but damn what a difference on the way home! It is nearly 100 degrees outside as well right now and the bike was hugely improved. I cannot wait until we spend some serious time back on the dyno and see how much cleaner we can get. No rideability issues, no popping or back firing, and immediate throttle response regardless of gear. Hell...the shift display even disappeared completely (Just an outline of the box) so I can't complain about that!

The ride home was awesome......worth the aggravation? Perhaps.

Bring on the stocker Hub. We will find out!!! LOL.

Bring on the stocker Hub. We will find out!!! LOL.

Oh Shit! He's on to me!

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before we could put her back on the dyno, but I can say without a shadow of a doubt....FLIES OUT (Yes...even on a 2010 model), and no questions about it...the TRE006a from Ivans (via Brocks).

The bike was pretty soft on the way over, but damn what a difference on the way home!

No rideability issues, no popping or back firing, and immediate throttle response regardless of gear. Hell...the shift display even disappeared completely (Just an outline of the box) so I can't complain about that!

The ride home was awesome......worth the aggravation? Perhaps.
Bring on the stocker Hub. We will find out!!! LOL.

Hub, you get back here,,,, He now likes the 14 again. No need to sell.

Red, Kruz and myself and I'm sure many silent others Love that set up. Once tried you will never go back. Now your riding the 14 you paid for. Cheers. Knew you would like it. Cheers.

Excuse me. Romes?
Is this filled or empty?
I'm going to clowntown tune this guy all up.
He's watt you call... "The Setup."
Not the old lady... The 14.

Matchishit with a reach around, adjust the package ass it were out the crack all bunched up. I got youred ass wired, Red! Cody be riding in the back all shotgun ready on the arm swing.

Hey, Red! Every dick has their day... Glad you found your way.

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