I normally don't pay any attention but ever since Rook reported finding aluminum bits in the bottom of his oil drain pan, I thought I'd better look. Since my drain pan is black plastic, it's very easy to see any sparkly aluminum slivers or dust. There was some in there. A quick call to 1Bad, expert on all hillbilly motor technology, confirmed that this is due to normal clutch basket wear. I'm really surprised no one else besides Rook, Bad and I have noticed this.

Does this translate to having to replace the clutch assembly or what is the significance of this?

To me it just means change oil and filter regularly. That's what I'm doing until I hear otherwise.

Nice pic Rook, that is exactly the color and size particles I'm seeing only I'm seeing less of them. You have a lot more mileage than I do so that may explain the increased amount. If you install a new basket it is going to do the same thing but probably a lot less early on. As clearance increases in the baskets aluminum "fingers" I'm speculating the wear rate accelerates.

Just another reason I change oil frequently on my bikes. The oil is doing triple duty on a wetclutch, shared transmission bike and gets worked hard and put away wet. Oil is a lot cheaper than metal!

Oil is a lot cheaper than metal!

I just changed oil Sunday afternoon on my 14 at 1800 miles and that's with a full synthetic. I had been going 2000 miles. Automatic cam chain tensioner rattle on engine startup was noticeably quieter with the fresh oil. I am begining to wonder about the wisdom of using synthetic with frequent oil changes and may step down to the Rotella 15W40 dino oil. It has an identical heavy duty additive package to the Rotella 5W40 synthetic but costs over $7 less per gallon at Wally World...$12 vs $19.50/gallon.

With all those aluminum bits from the clutch basket floating around, I can't see going 5 to 7K oil changes like some guys claim they're doing.

I'm not so sure they're "floating around".That's at the bottom of your pan,right?The oil pick up's right there...going into the filter isn't it?Gotta remember...when ya shut er down for an oil change,some of that oil is gonna drain back into the pan from the filter.Maybe that's what you're seeing,and not actually flowing around your engine?Only to be sucked up again at startup?IDK...just an idea.

I haven't seen any metal stuff in my oil pan...it's just not there.Just at 40,000 miles...and ridden aggressively most of it.My last oil change was 5,000+ miles(accidentally).Oil looked okay...full syn,Motul 7100.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 9/22/2010 @ 1:07 AM *

All 3 of my bikes owners manuals say to change the oil at 7500 miles, and thats with the kawi and suzuki dino oil. I would think if those tiny aluminum fragments were that much of a problem kawi and suzuki would have us changing the oil alot sooner lol. I change my Mobil 1 Racing 4T bike specific full syn about every 5000 miles I don't see the point in running a top of the line full syn oil if you're not going to use it to its full potential. Like Big K said, if you're going to change you're oil every 2000 miles, any good quality dino oil will be fine. But doing that with an expensive full syn made to last longer is a waste imo. Castrol makes a bike specific dino oil they sell at wally world that was 2.67 a quart last time I bought some, which was a couple seasons ago. Castrol makes good oil, that would be a good choice for 2000 and under oil changes

Ya...after this Motorex oil...I'm replacing with the 7100(300V)Motul again.

I haven't seen any metal stuff in my oil pan...it's just not there.Just at 40,000 miles...and ridden aggressively most of it.

Blue07, wasn't it you that found some aluminum particles or shavings when installing the cam chain tensioner? I think it was Rook that had mentioned somethng about this.

Anyone else seeing the sparkly bits in the bottom of their drain pan? If not, maybe 1Bad is off base with his clutch basket explanation and Rook and I have potentially a more serious problem. I cannot think of any where else they could be coming from except piston skirt. One other thing both my engine and Rooks' engine have in common, both use oil, about 1 quart every 2000 miles.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 9/22/2010 @ 6:59 AM *

To me it just means change oil and filter regularly. That's what I'm doing until I hear otherwise.

exactly what i do . about every 30 passes. i do my filter every 3rd oil change. total oil change is 30.00.. oil just 13.00 . BUT that filter is expensive M1-108 or the napa gold . i also run a high pressure oil valve

http://www.schnitzracingstore.com/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=5032336&showprevnext=1

i can say that on a motor that had 42,000 HARD miles the bearings and crank were reused without any problems..

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 9/22/2010 @ 7:16 AM *

Bad in Black, I guess it's just a matter of comfort level. Oil doesn't cost much and it gives me an excuse to get down there and take a look around at things so I change frequently. I've heard one theory that I haven't been able to verify yet, that too frequent oil changes may be a bad thing. The lack of oil pressure during the initial start while you're oil filter and oil galleries are filling back up may rob the engine of protection. With the engine under no load at idle and with residual oil film, I don't know if I really buy into this theory.

You can pre-fill your filter in some applications(vertical filter) but on the horizontal installations (everything I own) you're gonna spill oil everywhere and make a mess. Best you can do is soak the pleats.

Anyway with this particle thing, Rook and I can panic and start tearing our engines down or we can trust 1Bad on this that it's just clutch dust. 1Bad may be a hillbilly to some of you folks but he has been riding these things for a long time and that hillbilly motor tech can be a good thing.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 9/22/2010 @ 7:15 AM *

What I had was some "slivers"...very very tiny and crushable by rubbing them between my fingertips.On the ignition magnet and the two metal bolts right there on both sides of it.I have no idea how long they were on there.I mean...just looking at it,you probably wouldn't even really notice it,if you were someone else.I notice those kinds of things.It wasn't anything I'm classifying as "sheared off bits" of anything.I don't know if clutch steels can wear...but it could have been as simple as something along those lines.VERY minimal.You're using that much oil....hhmmmmm...to ME...that would be cause for concern.What type are you running again?.

I used Royal Purple for I think it was two oil cycles.I had to add a few times during that.Went to Motorex...so far,haven't had to add any.Motul 7100....didn't need to add during that either...and that cycle was 5,000 miles.I've got a new 4 liter jug of 7100 waiting right now to go in.Heathun mentioned about some oils "heating up" and evaporating...makes sense to me.I didn't really know oil could do that...but I guess it can.I don't have any leaks...so apparently,some oils work better than others for longevity.Only full syn in my bike.10/40.I definitely won't use Royal Purple again.Good oil...but I think a tad too "thin".

* Last updated by: blue07 on 9/22/2010 @ 10:20 AM *

.You're using that much oil....hhmmmmm...to ME...that would be cause for concern.What type are you running again?.

if your talking to me . i'm not using oil just changing it . 300,000 rpm turbo's like fresh oil

My metal specks were localized to a ~3" diameter section of the center of the pan. They were not distributed evenly across the pan IMO, (FWIW) that isn't a lot of metal shavings. I saw more in break in oil. My bike uses ~2/3 qt of oil every 2500. I change oil every 2500 miles. Always buy 5 qts and fill with 4 qt + 10 oz with new dry filter. filter. By the time I need to change, most or all of what was left of that last qt gets used up from adding. Last time I changed, I bought crappy GN4 Honda oil because that's all they had. I've used Suz , Kaw, Spectro oils and GN4 all dino oils. GN4 is a waste of $$ if you ask me. It does not shift smooth. I have missed a couple shifts on it and the notorious Cam Chain rattle lasts longer. I have used a lot more oil running GN4 too. About a quart in 2000 miles. All bad indicators IMO. Don' waste $$on GN4. Might as well try some other cheaper oil because you will want to dump the GN4 pretty soon anyway.

The lack of oil pressure during the initial start while you're oil filter and oil galleries are filling back up may rob the engine of protection. With the engine under no load at idle and with residual oil film, I don't know if I really buy into this theory.

Seems to me draining oil should have no impact on lubrication at start up. The filter has to fill up but that can't take more than a second. There is only a residual film of oil to lube at start up regardless of wether there was a change or not. If you run the bike just before draining, I would imagine that would vastly increase the residual oil film and compensate for any lack of circulation while the filter gets saturated. JMHO. I don't worry about changing oil often at all. I am more concerned about the ambient temp and condensation build up during oil changes. Momentary lack of oil pressure is normal for start ups. If the engine is cold and runs at idle for a second without a generous flow of oil, No worries here.

I change the my oil about every 8k which is 2k quicker than the manual requires. My bike has 28k and runs like new maybe better. I use rotella synthetic. I think if you really push your bike to the limits then maybe sooner is better. Or if you really need the variable weight. I think it all shears down to 30 weight after about 3k.

Quick oil changes like Kruz does sure won't hurt your bike but I am not sure it will help it either.

We should ask the guys who have put 45k + on their bikes what intervals they follow. What ever they are doing it must be ok. Doesn't someone here have over 60k on their bike? what do they do? I can't figure the manual is that far off but you never know.

Yes, I would like to hear from the high timers, over 40,000 miles.

I think it all shears down to 30 weight after about 3k.

True, this has been proven in tests, actually most 10W40 will shear down to a 30 weight equivalent within 1500 miles. Typically synthetics take another 1000 miles. This is in a wet clutch motorcycle application with shared transmission, notoriously hard on engine oil.

I have argued for a long time that this is not significant. A lubrication engineer stated awhile back that most liquid cooled engines perform best with a 30W oil when at operating temperature. The reason the manufacturers don't specify a 10W30 from the start is because it will shear down to a 20 weight over time which is a bit too thin. By specifying a 10W40 like most do, it starts out a little thicker than optinmum then shears down to a equivalent 10W30 in the first 1500 to 2000 miles and then stays there. The majority of the viscosity loss (steep part of the curve) is literally in the first 1500 miles then it stabilizes almost indefinetly. Some oils will actually thicken up if you run them long enough due to soot accumulation.

A test done by a university physics professor showed that the original Mobil 1 synthetic lost 17% of it's viscosity in the first 1500 miles in a motorcycle application. Castrol GTX lost 32% and Honda HP4 lost about 34% of it's initial vsicosity in the same time frame.I'll Google it and see if I can find that test.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 9/22/2010 @ 11:43 AM *

Here ya go!

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm

* Last updated by: Kruz on 9/22/2010 @ 11:41 AM *

kruz what does the oil story say . in short version . i'm not gonna read all that shitt

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 9/22/2010 @ 1:40 PM *

It appears 1Bad was right about the source of the aluminum particles:

Another special feature exclusive to our basket design is the spring pockets,other manufactures machine a flat bottom relief for the spring to rest in,this usually results in the spring chewing away at the basket depositing all of the aluminum particles into your engine.

Our spring relief geometry is extruded into the basket the shape of the spring resulting in a more natural fit and less wear,and less material entering your engine.

http://www.tripleaperformance.com/Hays_Machine_Works_Superlite_Billet_Clutch_Basket_p/hays%20mw%20sl%20clutch%20basket.htm

Next question 1 Bad, that stuff can't be doing any good for your engine, main and rod bearings, transmission bearings etc.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 9/22/2010 @ 2:32 PM *

kruz what does the oil story say . in short version . i'm not gonna read all that shitt

LMAO....fair enough, basically says you're wasting your money if you're buying motorcycle specific oil. There's nothing special about it except the price.

yada yada yada .. the devil owns my motorcycle . and its pure evil . trys to kill me all the time

Just treated mine to a 4 pack and didnt see any of the shiny stuff in the old with almost 5k on the oil, but I didnt break out a magnet either.

You'd prolly need an aluminum magnet, these were non-ferrous particles.

You can't just look in the oil though, they don't float, you have to drain the oil into a bucket or what not and look at the very bottom of the pan. Never seen them before this oil change so I don't know what's up. 1Bad says he's had 'em since his '06 was new and when he tore the motor down for the turbo rebuild everything looked like new at 30K. I'm not going to worry, life's too short for that.

I poured it back in the bottles to recycle, but bottom of the pan seemed clean, but now im going to have to go out there and really look at it. Got my curiosity up.