Trying to get the bike back together and hoping for a quick answer.
The factory manual says nothing except to install them.
The 4 copper header gaskets have a small edge or ridge on one side and are smooth on the other. I "think" the smooth side goes toward the motor?? Maybe it doesn't matter. I don't know why I didn't make a positive note on it when I pulled them out. I'm fairly sure the edge/ridge was contacting the header but would appreciate someone's blessing on this. Thanks.

I've always got new ones when I replaced the headers.I don't think it matters which way they go in.

FOUND IT!! Bevel to engine is best. Head pipe crushes into flat/bevel flattens against machined surface of outlet.

http://www.zx14ninjaforums.com/messages.cfm?threadid=BADB3FD9-D56B-84E2-151F8531C0A3A5A3

end o' story.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/19/2010 @ 10:56 AM *

I used some copper spray sealer, Permatex Copper Spray-a-Gasket, high temp sealant on both sides of the gasket as well. That will at least help to stick the gaskets to the engine. I don't know how long it will hold up to engine temp at the manifold. There was another product called RTV orange(RTG???...3 letters, can't remember the name now)which was recommended to me as a good spray on high temp sealant.

Some people recommend sealing all the joints-- i don't know, if the joints fit real tight, that will make pressing them together pretty hard and you don't want to be reefing and twisting on the system to fit pipes when they are bolted to engine. My pipes fit way too tight to use that sticky sealant on the joints.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/19/2010 @ 11:08 AM *

Thanks. I was searching and also found that old thread.
I think your terminology confused parts at first but then I knew what exact part you were talking about.
It does make(more?)sense that the edge/ridge(bevel)goes towards the motor. Damn this pisses me off. I made other notes and forgot to note this. I appreciate your replies but I'm having trouble because I really thought the bevel contacts the header. There's no marks on my head that show the bevel or edge. I'd think there would be some kind of thin circular line or mark? This is holding me up and I took the day off to try to get the bike moving along.

OK. Just called the dealer. They said it doesn't matter which way the copper gaskets go in. I know they aren't always right either but I have to go with the majority vote. As for it not mattering, I think it may be OK to install them either way but I still think there's a "better" way.
Even though I thought they were installed bevel out, I'll go with what Hub and you think is a better choice, bevel towards motor.
I'm using some Permatex copper sealant too but only as much as I need to hold the gaskets in place. It dries in 1 hour and knowing how slow I can be I don't want to hurry because I'm worried about a "normal" layer of that stuff drying on me before my final torque. I want to get the cans and everything finger tight and then uniformly torque everything, trying to minimize any stress on the header nuts.

Hey, KAK- I was also told by the dealer Kawi cert mech it does not matter which way the gaskets face. I'm quite certain that my original, Kawi installed gaskets were placed bevel in on some pipes and bevel out on others.

What Hub said in above post makes sense to me because you will notice that the bevel is joined by a split along the top surface. If that goes against the engine, it will flatten out evenly. If it goes against the head pipe, the split may not seat direct center and I could see part of the bevel not getting flattened and resulting in a leak. One of my original gaskets had that appearance of not being uniformly crushed on the bevel surface and I'm sure that was one of the gaskets that had the bevel against the pipe. Far as I know, it did not leak.

I had my gaskets in with bevel against pipe (not the best way, I have since come to believe) and there is still no leak. Which surface contacts the bevel is probably less of an issue than it may seem.

I def wouldn't reuse a gasket if it looked like it was installed bevel to pipe. I think replacing them no matter which way they were last installed is always a good idea though. These are not just flat washer type gaskets (for anyone who has never seen a header gasket), they are hollow and are meant to collapse quite a bit.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/19/2010 @ 12:18 PM *

I wouldn't fret too much about the sealer drying out before you get the nuts torqued. You probabley won't be able to get all the headers on in less than 10 minutes. I'm sure that sealer squeezes to a tight seal tacky or dry.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/19/2010 @ 12:31 PM *

That doesn't make sense, why would it even have a bevel if it didn't matter. I've always installed them bevel in, if you notice the bevel matches up with the head for a better seal.

The dealer is correct. If you look at the gasket, it is made to fold as a tube. So if you squeeze a ball, where in place > do you position that angle so you see, either side facing whatever part of the head or pipe is like a ball without direction. You can do it either way.

I come along, anal-eyes said parts in hand, and then assemble as per. The way you install a washer is when they stamp it out, the flatter side has more surface contact, so you position the washer over the surface, where the lock washer and nut ride more in the middle of the washer, where it does not need that drop off, but spreads that flat surface on the other side with more contact surface. Reverse the washer, then the punched curve of the washer is up in the air, away from full contact.

When I open my mouth, it speaks about massaging the parts on. Like if we set the clutch pack up, the punched out steel plates have that flat-cut-side, where all the steels run better all in one direction. I just explained how anal the build can be once you assemble the bike from-the-ground-up. You deal with the same parts for decades, you begin to find even the freewheeling gears rubbing against the washer has to be turn with the curve toward the gear. This is so as not to cut the gear with the edge of the washer. Now the spin can roll/mesh with the round side lifted [stamped> direction] away from the gear so the rub is just a hard push up at it = No scores. Better known as a, "thrust washer.'

But something like the exhaust gasket and how that is made, you can get away with the crush either way. You did good. Don't worry about that gasket turn. You go deeper in the engine like the clutch pack and transmission gear washers, then yeah, we might have a longevity problem if say we turn those parts over the other direction.

That is the way to think on assembly. Leave it. The crush is good for one time. So you reverse is just a waste. Hand tighten the header so it floats where it wants. Then torque those either to spec or hand tight if you have a feel for about 15/20 lbs. of foot torque. Book calls for 25-pounds torque. After the header floats you giggling the rear tip, the first 15/20 is by hand. Torque the other 5 pounds with a beam bar or click type torque wrench. I get away with the nuts by hand. You would have to remove the radiator to get a straight shot at the nuts. Either that, or have a large selection of 1/4 drive sockets and extensions to torque it that way leaving the radiator on. So, hand is the 3rd option you do not pull the studs out of the head kind of too tight be careful not to over tighten. If you cannot spin a nut off a thread, then the thread and nut are stretched and/or threads are angled at a new pitch. Any nut or bolt being hard to spin itself in either direction freely is not to be used.

So many tricks and rules. So many nuances. Love that stuff. Glad we have you here, Hub.

How many of you just use the same gaskets thats already on there? I only know a hand full of people that have bikes and changed out there exhaust. Every one of them used there old gasket with no leaks.

A few people told me it was not necessary to change gaskets but for $16, I thought it was worth ensuring a good seal. These are not flat gaskets, they must form to the shape of the pipe by pressing against it. My stock gaskets were not crushed evenly all around the circumference indicating that the stock header did not fit squarely against it. If the stock header doesn't sit flat against the gasket, I wasn't going to assume that aftermarket pipes would do that either.

All that being said, I have never heard of anyone complain about leaky header problems and I know a lot of people do not replace the gaskets.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/19/2010 @ 7:54 PM *

My Brocks CT duals are supposed to be here Tuesday and my buddy helping me do the install didn't replace his gasket. But if they are that cheap I guess I'll go ahead and spring for the new gasket. Never really been a money issue just a drive to the Kawasaki dealer.

I may have swapped the headers 3 or 4 times before I heard one hiss I could not bark down with an extra twist of the nut. So, yeah, you can get away with a 1 or 2 time R&R. You'll never line up the same crush lines with the new pipe or even the old pipe. It will walk somehow and start to push material to where you hear the leak begin to tick like a loose valve almost.

That's when guys get in trouble and hold the stud and nut in hand is just a little more, ho maybe this will stop it. No, I'm gonna, man I need two hands now, I'll just... (((Bing!)))

The factory manual calls for 13 ft/lb torque for the manifold holder nuts. Not 25.
25 ft/lb is for the muffler bracket bolts.

I was going to make a new thread about how my header re-install went but I can keep it here. It raised a different question but I'll get to it in a minute.
I've never installed a header with loose manifold flanges before, only fixed. Also, having it ceramic coated may have a part in this because you can't let the flanges just go where they want without scratching the finish a lot.
The coater tie strapped the flanges snug so I wrapped some electrical tape at the edge of the flanges to stop them from falling down. They were snug but you could still rotate them easily enough. Applied just enough copper sealer to hold the new gaskets in. Cut the tie straps, get in position and try to line up the 8 studs with the holes while using one hand to hold the header. Fun! Finally got it in enough to loosely install the holder nuts. Tapped the header here and there with my palm, lifted up the rear of the header (underneath) until it wouldn't noticably go further so I started VERY uniformly tightening the nuts. As a general guide I made sure all 8 studs had approx' the same amount showing past the nut, trying to make the flanges go straight up as much as possible and avoid noticably cocking them.
Kept going until the first nut clicked at 13 ft/lb.
Then I torqued all to 13. Here starts the reason I was going to make another thread about correct torquing. Because I knew things could "relax" a bit I went right back and double checked and sure enough the nuts moved some before clicking again. To be honest, I ended up doing this about 5 or 6 times uniformly as each time the nut moved some before clicking. In general, each time the nuts moved less. This whole thing started making me a little worried. I've double checked hardware before but never had it keep losing it's torque this many times.
As you know, you need to get them torqued to your satisfaction NOW. You can't just start the bike up and test for leaks without the radiator. Once the rad' is on it's a PITA to get to the nuts and impossible with a torque wrench. So, the nuts keep budging a little, some a tad more than others. Finally, a couple of them barely move and they click so I know I'm close. I decided to install the radiator even though I knew they might loose their torque again. I actually thought I could finish any needed torquing with the rad'on. Wrong. 6 of them I can only reach with a box end wrench but at least I can reach a total of 7 of them if I hear a leak. 1 of them I can get a wrench on but there's no room to tighten it. I stopped and finished the next day (today).
One last time I checked the outer 2 nuts and they clicked immediately. 5 others I checked with a box wrench and they "felt" right. As I said, number 2 nut I can't tighten unless I want to start banging stuff and then only maybe.
This is a bitch not being able to test without the possibility of loosening/removing the radiator if it did leak. I'll be hoping it doesn't leak.
Any of you gone through this multiple torquing? I can't imagine the copper gaskets crushing that much and changing the torque reads. I'm guessing it could only be the flanges were just a tad uneven going in and it created some side to side stress? All 4 tightened up the same. Is there some magic touch to making the header slip in FULLY and you can actually KNOW it bottomed? I tried to be as careful as I could.
I honestly don't know what to expect until I start it. I kept thinking what a mechanic would do. Would he stop after each nut clicked the first time? At that point I'd be fairly sure they would leak. I don't know. Maybe if you do it for a living or enough times you get the "feel"?
Thanks if you read the whole thing. Appreciate any thoughts/experience.

* Last updated by: KAK on 2/20/2010 @ 10:57 PM *

10.0 ~ 13.5 ft.lbs. is the torque spec for an 8mm thread diameter. So, KAK, you are right. I found a page with the flange nuts circled and matched A with 25ft.lb. One of many senior moments for me. Something told me to relay the hand tighten way.

KAK, you are feeling the slow collapse of the gasket. One click up to 13 is not the way if you want to work in an anal position. 13 Slams the one side down. You sorta bow the hanger. If you clicked incremental pounds of say 4 pounds times 3 clicks up to the final 13lbs.ft., that is more even pressure on the crush. By hand is the ultimate feel and yes, years of spinning 6mm bolts and nuts onto or into aluminum threads, shows you how much or how little it takes to pull the threads out of the aluminum hole.

Good writeup. I could follow your frustration. The trick to the #2 nut is to have [in the tool box] both a short 12mm open/box end wrench, the other is a micro-wrench which is closed at both ends. The one micro head is positioned normal angle so that if you go so far on the one head, you turn the micro around, use the round offset of that head, she hooks right up for more travel room to move tighter or whatever direction. You need both the mini and micro just for something like the hard to get at; #2 inner stud.

Gotta have these tool if you want to speed up the job, let alone be stuck taking other things off to get at the nut another way. I remove the lower radiator steady bracket bolt from the engine. Bungie cord the radiator as far back as it will pivot without damaging parts. Then I can get the 1/4 drive swivel head in there on the nut. The mini and micro finish off the hand tightening without touching the radiator; pulling out the exhaust or installing one.

I appreciate the reply.
I've always been careful when I do something the first time but this still stressed me out.
Sure ain't like working on my 30 year old GS.
You don't want to keep tightening the nuts but the thought of putting everything on and having a leak makes you keep tightening a l-i-t-t-l-e more. Just a little more insurance. At least I knew I wasn't over-tightening but the whole thing makes you wonder what's going on.
I remember some of my original gaskets were not uniformly crushed by the factory but I didn't notice any leaking. I did notice 1 nut was getting ready to come off (finger tight at best) and another was fairly loose (about 2 ft/lb?).
Yeah, I suppose you can get some wiggle space by removing the bottom bolt. Number 2 nut was of course in that infamous position where you can get a wrench on it at only 1 position but there's no room to swing. With the new coating and feeling it should be tight enough already I didn't want to force a tool in there.
I doubt the coating contributed to any difficulty installing it, other than making me baby it a lot. And looking back, the flanges couldn't be cocked as I tightened because I had them as far up as they could go under hand pressure and they were taped in position. I would guess after finger tightening all 8 nuts, all the multiple torquings may have made the nuts spin about 2 full additional turns? I doubt 3 turns.
Can't wait to get the bike done and share some pics. Been down a good 6 weeks or so. Maybe by next weekend. Working 7 days a week right now. Little time to work on the bike.
Thanks for the help. Gotta get to bed. Working again tomorrow.

You can get a socket on all the header nuts by using a 1/4" drive ~11" long extension and a swivel attachment. You can reach through the triangular hole in the sides and from down below. You might even be able to get a torque wrench on there if you can find an adapter to attach the 1/4" drive extension.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/21/2010 @ 10:03 AM *

Installed my exhaust today. Followed these instructions and had no problems.

3 Bolts (2 top, 1 bottom) and the radiator swings out of the way. The one thing that I've found is that the header nuts do come loose. I make a habit now of tightening them about every 500 miles or so.

Also, I found all kinds of road crap stuck up in the header & radiator area.

Congrats jbice, those are some sweet pipes. Cheers.

YES____________----------very nice. Great choice! How's it ride?

Yeah I found 2 or 3 nuts loose on my stock headers. I tightened everything up and went for a little ride I will check tomorrow for loose nuts. Thanx Romans I am very happy with the way they look and the way they sound especially. The PCV had Brocks street map for the CT duals already downloaded. I can tell a huge difference in power.