Ok guys, I tried as hard as I could. Tried a VFR1200, Bandit 1250, FJR (oops), and almost bought another Blackbird. The engine on this thing spoiles you for life and not just at full throttle, it's the 20% throttle 5K shifts than just happen so naturally it honestly made that VFR feel like a car, or maybe a jeep

I was about to buy a newer one but I don't want green and after exhaustive research found Matte wasn't for me either. My last one was white and red attracts too much attention. Aside from paying top dollar for a black 2017, the 2013 SE was all that's left. I dug up the last new 2013SE for $9999 plus tax, and having it shipped here in a couple of weeks. Looks like it got loose in the crate but oddly enough the pipe, rear seat cowl and screen are all that really got damaged. Things that will get removed anyway.

First off, I already found a great deal on a Yosh 4-2-1 so that's the first order of business. I just found out though that Ivan can flash it and I'm done? No dyno tune or PCV? I want it pretty close to perfect for street riding...

* Last updated by: Auron on 7/11/2017 @ 10:07 AM *

Congrats! Nice bike and you got a nice deal too.

I just found out though that Ivan can flash it and I'm done? No dyno tune or PCV? I want it pretty close to perfect for street riding...

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/11/2017 @ 3:02 PM *

So does that mean Ivan has a map for the Yosh system and can get it nice and smooth at all rpm's?

I thought Ivan recommends his flash and a pcv with his maps installed.

I don't believe his flash messes with trims at all.

You should give Ivan a call, he's a cool guy and is always
Willing to talk and answer questions.

I guess he used to but now bypassing the PCV, as are most good flashers these days. I think it's only recent.

LOL I think it's the other way around, they used to flash fueling and everything but in the last couple years, they've been recommending a PCV along with the flash even if they already flash the fueling. Personally, I think flashing without at least offering to flash fueling is a rip off. Why make a poor guy go buy a PC5 if you flashed his ECU? I think a PC5 will give you a little better fueling but I don't think everyone really needs that.

You can get everything but fueling from Schnitz for $70.

The only reason I can think of why you wouldn't want a good fuel map flashed is that you can no longer compare your PC5 edits to a stock map and you cannot compare those edits to stock performance on your own bike anymore and you cannot run a different map that was created for stock fueling. You would have to compare/adjust everything to Ivan fueling. I'm sure Ivan fueling is the cats ass but it could get awfully damned confusing if you wanted to play around with self tuning and definitelt if you wanted to use somone else's map. This is why me, the guy with all the self tuning accoutrements who likes to self tune probably would prefer to not have timing or fueling flashed until I am damned well certain it is as perfect as it can be for my bike (maybe---who knows---you get engine work done, turbo, NOS---no longer perfect).

If you don't want to hassle with self tuning or pay extra for the equipment, I think a flasher should offer to give you all of his ECU work. If you want to do a PC5+ignition, the flasher should give you his DJ fuel and ignition maps free with a flash.

On the other hand, the stock fueling and ignition tables are much more intricate than a DJ fuel table. I can see how you could get smoother results from a map that is not perfect for your bike than you would with a DJ map that is spot on. Possible. DJ electronics do automatically make calculations for throttle position and RPM where those parameters are "between" the values that are established for the cells a DJ map has. A flash has all the same cells as stock of course.

SO it's up to you how far you want to evolve in this game but the end of it is that you have a flash, a PC5+ignition, and finally, you get your own flashing software. It all depends on how depp a money pit you want to dig yourself and how much really think you can really gain through ever finer tuning.

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/12/2017 @ 3:43 PM *

I have a local tuner that does all the bikes for our club racers. He's not a 14 specialist but I'm sure he's done lots of ZX10's and a few Zx14's. He'll flash and dyno it for $550. That seem like the most bang for the buck no?

Otherwise I think I'd have Ivan do it and his map but I read on the other site Ivan isn't using a PCV anymore, just his flash and you're set.

He'll flash and dyno it for $550. That seem like the most bang for the buck no?

I don't think he does know what Ivan knows. Ivan is a 14 specialist.

I don't really want to dyno it, but I want a full system so I figured when you do that a dyno tune is a must. If Ivan can get it close enough then I'll just flash it.

* Last updated by: Auron on 7/13/2017 @ 6:05 AM *

IMO, if you are the kind of guy that likes to tinker with his motorcycle then pickup a PCV & autotune, you'll learn a ton and can fine tune the map "on the road" (Rook knows what I mean by the quotes) to your heart's content.

If you don't think you'll ever touch the map once its loaded then I would save the money from the PCV and just go with the flash only. I bought my pipes, PCV, etc from Ivan and he was knowledgeable, answered all of my questions and sold me exactly what I needed for my bike and I would definitely buy from him again.

Here's what I remember about Ivan. He has his own flashing software. He's the only flasher that can reformat your ECU back to stock (that is reformat it for Kawasaki software--they all can put values back to stock with Woolich software but that will not work with Kaw software if you need diagnostic work or warranty claim). He also guarantees that your ECU cannot be locked by his software. You get some extra protection with him. It was quite some time ago this was explained to me but at that time, Ivan was the only one who could adjust cooling fan temp. I think they all do it now.

Nels unifies the mapping of all 4 cylinders which probably gives a bit more hp. Kawasaki maps the inner two richer, probably to make them run cooler.

As far as Fueling goes, they all know the AFR number's that make the best performance. All they needed to do was let the electronics tell them how to adjust the fueling to achieve that AFR. What might be different is what AFR numbers they consider to be optimum at different ranges of the powerband. A more performance minded guy might feel running rich at low rpm is more valuable and a more economy minded guy might feel lean is better. I'm sure they all have finished their tunes on the road or LSR course.

Timing is one area where opinions differ dramatically. Romans has said a number of times, advancing timing makes another horse power as a general rule but the Gen1 was already advanced more than he would like stock.

Ivan, Nels, Romans. I'd go with one of them. I'm not sure it will make a big difference either way. Romans is probably going to cost you less and he does replace you ECU if Woolich software bricks it.

I ran my full system on a PC5 map from the tuner I bought the pipe from for years. No dyno tune. If the PC5 map was made for your bike with your exhaust, it should be very close to a custom tune assuming you run your bike within a thousand feet elevation that the map was made at. If not, you can tune it yourself with a WB2 and perhaps notice a couple small improvements.

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/13/2017 @ 9:06 AM *

Ivan all the way then.

R77 is here, couldn't pass up the whole thing in aluminum for $700 on ebay. Pipe diameter seems smaller that the stock 14R is that just me?

It may be to tune the flow dynamics to the muf and the exit velocity.

R77 is here, couldn't pass up the whole thing in aluminum for $700 on ebay. Pipe diameter seems smaller that the stock 14R is that just me?

It may be to tune the flow dynamics to the muf and the exit velocity.

The Tsukigi on my 14 has smaller diameter at the header and widens up a tad lower on the header. The stock header is the same on the Gen1 though it is subtle. The busa's Tsukigi has this same effect but it is very pronounced on that header. You notice at a glance.

I'm sure Yoshimura has designed it for the best possible performance. That is a beauty of a pipe and what a great price you got! Must be nice and light. I bet the finish will not be effected by the heat at all.

Word of caution, my buddy, Kruz (who never responds to any of my posts) had that same pipe for his CBR 1000 and he claimed the headpipes did not all match up flush to the manifold. Yoshi was no help. He tried bending it in a pipe bender but to no avail. He ended up tossing the whole thing in the dumpster. That was a different bike and possibly not installed in the right order...IDK--just thought I'd mention. Follow install instructions. I'm sure it says to install the head pipes first.

That would suck, especially since I don't plan on installing all my mods until the weather turns bad. The part number on the box matched up perfectly and they used that crazy foam to secure it. If it's not the right one, I'll be screwed anyway.

In the mean time I'm going to have Swain-tech coat all but the mid pipe. I don't want to have them do the mid pipe because their ceramic is not attractive, and you can see all of the pipe when on the kickstand. I was thinking I'd have Performance coating do the mid pipe, but only if I'd notice a difference.

Is there much heat to insulate that far from the head and radiator?

* Last updated by: Auron on 7/14/2017 @ 1:36 PM *

Congrats on the new ride! I have a 2013 as well, and got a great deal also. Ride it everyday to work

Is there much heat to insulate that far from the head and radiator?

I don't think so. I was told by the tuner who sold me my pipe and coated it that there was no real difference in the mapping for a ceramic coated pipe v non. My coating was not of high quality and it was only on the outside. Much of it is worn off the headers now and I can't tell a diff with heat or anything. It still runs at the same temp according to the gauge and the muffler is barely warm 10 minutes after shutdown. The busa is uncoated and I can tell no diff between its Tsukigi Cannon and the 14's. Some will differ though. "Do the inside and out" they say. "It really matters." If it's a proffessional place that specializes in ceramic coatings, I'd do it in and out if I wanted the look but if I liked the bare pipe, I'll save the $300 for something else.

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/14/2017 @ 4:18 PM *

Mind you, mine was not a high quality ceramic coating. I am quite sure it was just some ceramic paint they sprayed on there. It was not durable at all.

There's 2 versions of R77s. There's the original R77 made during Gen 1 for Gen 1. Then there's the revised R77 System that works for Gen 1 and 2. These should be designated as '06-'1x pipes. They have slightly larger diaameters and from all accounts probably a little more length from the ports to bottom. If this is the revised version For Gen 1/2 then it'll fit both bikes correctly.

Seems like people have had mixed results with (specificaly) Gen 1 pipes on Gen 2, probably about comes down to a test fit to see if it'll work for sure. I myself woiuldn't be concerned with pipe diameters...I'd leave that to dyno jockies.

The most dificult thing for me installing my Yosh pipes was getting everything lined up and one go into the ports. If the head pipes, collector, aren't lined up perfectly it won't go. Once I finally hit the exact right angles, it went in no problem. So if it doesn't go in easy, it's just all the pipes are rotated alightly wrong. I mean it seemed like a probably a mm or 2 and it wasn't going to work.

* Last updated by: VicThing on 7/15/2017 @ 5:30 AM *

So thankfully mine is the Gen 1 and Gen II, maybe the guy here that lost power on top was using a Gen I system.

Is there a reason you can't break the header up into all 5 parts to get them into the ports and slip the mid pipe on after?

Is there a reason you can't break the header up into all 5 parts to get them into the ports and slip the mid pipe on after?

I can't speak to the Yoshi but you could do that with my Tsukigi but it would make installation more difficult.

A) the headers can insert to the collector within a few mm range. You don't know exactly how far to insert until the flanges are all bolted up to the manifold.

B) the head pipes will rotate in the collector as you lift the whole assembly to the manifold. You would need 6 hands.

C) if you use an exhaust sealant like Permatex Copper Spray-A-Gasket, it will get all scuffed around in there.

D) LOL I remember it was a bit confusing determining which head pipe went to which exhaust port. I had to rearrange them a couple times before I got them in the correct positions. They all are different in shape/length and it looked right but it wasn't. Looks like you have it correct in your photo up there...but you might not know for sure until it's bolted up. WAIT--are you sure you have the two middles in the right order?? LOL looks like #3 is too long! ..or is that just because they are not at the exact positions to fit the exhaust ports yet?

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/15/2017 @ 9:27 AM *

You should have no issue with fitting the Yoshi. They are very high quality IMO. I had the Yosh full system on my 2007. I found that it retained alot of low end power(smaller diameter header) where I found the Brock's on my 2012 which have large diameter headers lost some low end power but produced more HP at the top end. I also had the Ivans PC-V and flash on my 2012. Excellent tune! Have fun, ride safe.

Was that the 4-2-1 or 4-1? I thought 4-2-1's did't lose any power?

Mt Tsukigis are 4-2-1 and I don't notice any loss in low end power from stock. I sure did see the rpm wind up quicker in N and that made me happy. No more feeling like the engine was a pressure cooker at high rpm. It just goes!