Kruz,

TTD is Time To Distance. On the DJ dynos you can select this as an option when mapping or looking at map runs, or using the DJ PC software and viewing runs, as well.

When I got a M109 in 07, the tuner first started tuning it for AFR 13.1. It ran very smooth. Felt very nice, and a little quicker. I hooked up with a retired NASCAR racing mechanic out in Florida shortly after, and he said to use TTD, since you were looking for getting from point A to point B the fastest, and 13.1 is the DJ method of tuning on their equip, for a smooth map, but not necessarily the fastest map, though sometimes it might end up being the same. 13.1 seems to be a good starting point, however, now that I've played about a bit with the ranges.

With the M109, in the end, I had 500+ + dyno runs and around 30 custom maps made, testing out air box, modified air box and no air box setups I had made, stock, K-N air filter flow comparisons, and custom made air filters, pipes, etc. I learned quite a bit about the airbox and just how to cut/mod it, as well as custom filters, flow rates, what the best flow rate for the most HP was on that bike.

The OEM bike, with an aftermarket high flow K-N filter and about any pipe would reliably get about +10 ish HP after a tune. A lot of fighting went on that certain pipes got much better' HP gains than others, but this just did not turn out to be true in the real world.

I could reliably go from OEM (about 103 HP-depending on dyno) and with aftermarket filter and a pipe to +10 HP, up to +24 HP from OEM, or about any in-between OEM to + 24 HP, on that bike with my mod’ed boxes/filters and about any pipe. In the end I had five box setups, +16, +18, +20, +22, +24 HP. Each box was formed/cut specifically, and would obtain that HP gain when filtered and tuned correctly, with about any aftermarket pipe.

I recall several folks who thought just removing the air box would give them max power. They had removed theirs and the bikes 'sounded' like NASCAR racing cars. I really like that sound, though it is way too loud for tranquil riding and the neighborhood. Folks could hear them coming down the street a very long distance off, just from opening up the front end, despite the pipes being OEM or after market. I rode some of those bikes as well, compared to my +16 mod’ed box, tuned bike. Their bikes were very flat/unresponsive/bogging down. When they rode my +16 mod box at that time, they were sure I had done some type of HP engine mods. They needed a tune so badly and they were bogged down so much that I'd bike length them by 12-15+ from a roll at 50 MPH to top speed of about 155. Making those mods with no tune lost them a bunch of power... yet their 'butt dyno's" said they definitely had more power. Dyno results before tuning show some had lost about 10 HP off of base line OEM bikes with no mods. If base line was 103.... they were running about 93 ish, thinking they were 110+, against the tuned mod’ed bike, which was about 119 HP, and accelerated smoothly and quickly (TTD tuning)..

Stock box and pipe-n-filter, about 10ish HP, on any M 109 bike is normal/average. Interestingly, the OEM filter setup is about 120 CFM based upon the specs of the engine. A lot of folks thought that you could just throw a low restriction filter on and BAM! get that extra HP.... so a lot of filters were bought and put on, and their 'butt dyno' said WOW! ... nope you'd lose power since the AFR was now off. A lot of people even seemed to think that you could not increase the flow on the engine by de-restricting the filter and or box, because the bike was already at 120 CFM... not true.

I checked out about a 10-12 different 09's with that simple mod, store K-N filter and pipe and no tune... they all lost power. In the end I found that what ever my bike responded to with mods, so did other bikes -– vice versa. Not really much difference in someone’s particular bike at all, though some claimed everyone's bike was "different", and some people had OEM bikes with 103 HP, while others had 112, or even up to about 120 OEM stock HP. All those differences were due to the use of different dynos, nothing else. As long as you are on the same dyno, the numbers ended up being almost always, within tenth's of each other in gains/losses to a certain mod, or the HP of a fully OEM bike.

Thunder, in AZ, has their own dyno. I don't know the brand. A number of bikes tuned there came in between the low 130's to high 130's, with K-N filter and a pipe change. My bike, here in Calif, and several others, same mods as the AZ bikes, came in the low 112's on a DJ dyno. A small group of the AZ bikes came to Calif and we dyno'd at the same dyno. By that time I had changed to a +18 HP setup. The AZ bikes came in around 113-114 HP. They had the same K-N filter and same company pipe. Their numbers were almost identical. I was at 122 HP and they were all completely depressed, and some even angry. geeze...... That was quite a discovery for some that it is all in the dyno.

Dynos on my bike and other 09's I tested showed it time after time. If you began increasing CFM=decreasing restriction, you could increase HP on that bike, up to +22, and with a special setup, up to +24 HP, over OEM, all attributed to about any aftermarket pipe, which seemed all about the same" pipe = +5 HP with K-N filter +5 and tune = +10. Unless you then went to more modified intake setups (no engine mods, NOS or the like) that was about the best you could do... until you changed the intake CFM. Max power, reliably 22+ HP came in at about 750-780 CFM on that bike, filter flow rate. That was almost exactly the same effect as removing the air box and tuning it. There was a slight difference in TQ from a 780 CFM filtered bike and a no-airbox bike. You could mess about with the velocity stacks a bit and move the TQ up or down a little, and shift it also in the RPM range a bit. No major advantages in TTD though with varying the stacks, though.

You were also maxing out the FI system by that time with a duty cycle of high 80-mid 90's, though you could replace the FI's with some higher flow units. Mileage went to hell. TTD, with the +18 to +22 HP mod and properly tuned, was about 1 ½ to 1 3/4 second faster in the quarter than a tuned +10 HP mod'ed bike, no matter how it was tuned (TTD or AFR (13.1 or what-ever)). If I tuned to 13.1 AFR, though, the TTD difference lowered to about 1/4 sec.

In one grouping of tests I found a break point for HP/TQ at 13.8-13.9. 13.8 down to 13.1 HP gain was consistently the same HP, and changing to 13.9 broke the HP gain and lost X HP. It was a significant loss. Best TTD was not at 13.1. There again was 1 3/4 sec difference in the 1/4 mile in the bike being best tuned for the 1/4 mile when tuning for TTD, away from a very good 13.1 map, which again, is DJ's way to tune a bike.

The 14 is tuned much better, OEM, than the M 109. I continue to tune for TTD (non-turbo), until I find another way that makes better a better result. I'd really like to find a way to tune with a turbo for best TTD without the threat of killing the engine. Since the turbo I have not experimented around with TTD or AFR for TTD, I'm just messing about with a cruise map, which works easily and well - went up from mid-hi 20's mpg doing 70-75, to 38-40 MPG recently. If I felt confident, I'd bump the cruise AFR from 14.2 to 14.7 and check that out, but I don't know enough to feel comfortabe if that would be a safe thing to try.

"By Kruz

.....You could accomplish the same thing by adding fuel at high rpm and small throttle openings on your map. This will have no effect on normal operation as you don't normally run, let's say 9000 rpm at 10% throttle opening."

With your suggestion I am now going to work on the pop again, thanks.

****************************

Long story around you question of TTD... I have way too much time on my hands since retiring.. LOL

* Last updated by: JDC on 3/8/2010 @ 10:59 AM *

TTD is Time To Distance. On the DJ dynos you can select this as an option when mapping or looking at map runs, or using the DJ PC software and viewing runs, as well.

1/4 mile at a time .. geez

Hub,

Normally Mickey would wait after I arrived at his shop for about 3/4 hour before he'd put the cooled bike on the rack. After starting he'd use a thermal gauge of some type to get to operating temp. I don't recall what the op. temp was he wanted. For tuning he'd normnally go 8-10 pulls and let it cool, unless I was there for doing things other than making a map. Depending on what I was doing (testing), I could spend several hours, to all almost day on the dyno, with cool down periods. He was very friendly with pricing for me.

Normally, for a custom map, once he started after I arrived and waited, it would take about 2 hours, with maybe an average or 4 or so cooling periods. His booth had two large fans, one on each side, and a center blower from the wall that was about 2 1/2 feet X 2 1/2 feet, or so. If forced quite a bit of air. Once the runs were being done, he was very quick. The cool down times were a pain for me. He can tune to 1.31 in his sleep. Tuning to TTD took a bit more time hitting 'spot on' for best TTD, going lower and above spot on, to make sure the 'spot on' was spot on.

Two other S. Cal DJ tuners also did the same tuning-cooling process, and about same time frames, as well. I think it is their DJ training.

That seem about the same for cooling when you all have yours done?

"From Hub,

You mean that we have a stopped wheel and a dyno roller, we select TTD, nail the throttle and say WOT is dead stopped now go!? I would think the time it takes to run the crank at a certain rpm you nail the throttle as the roller is up and running you hit the green button to capture a file run. WOT was left to do you with the throttle pinned is wait for the run up the torque change TimeThatDrive UP the last power band.

We are in the same gear, same rpm, same turn, you with air cleaner, me without, we nail it, who gets to spin the crank faster out the turn at the WOT?

I mean it could be done like that on the dyno pull. Not with my bike on that roller thank you."

Hub,

Yes, I agree with you. I would not do a roller stopped thing either.

Maybe I was not clear, but the tuning is the same as any tuning for AFR. I don't think the rollers ever stop rolling when tuning a bike on a dyno, that I have seen, except when the bike and dyno are being shut down. What I've seen is that the bike/s are geared through and put into 4th, roller is rolling = rear wheel is rolling. The DJ equip, once auto started/started, then starts the reading of the O2, what the TP is supposed to be for that tuning run, etc, and off you go.

When tuning for AFR, TTD, what ever, the process is exactly the same, near as I can tell, for tuning to a specific AFR. The bike is on the dyno, 4th gear, the initial setup checks, etc are done, a few pulls are done in 4th I believe, to get a baseline-make sure everything is functioning, etc...

and then the pulls are commenced. With AFR the tuner makes the appropriate changes to change the map AFR to 13.1, lets say (what ever you like). With TTD, normally we'd tune to 13.1, and then compare those pulls to make sure the map is on (13.1), and then start making changes to the AFR, up range a bit, till something gets better or breaks, and then down range, same idea, to find the best TTD pulls. We'd normally change the AFR by 1/10 markers during this process. Once the TTD sweet was 'spot on', then vary away from that, above and below, to confirm the best TTD (AFR). That is the same process to tune to any AFR, except the goal is to tune for the best TTD result.

The rolling is the same.

* Last updated by: JDC on 3/8/2010 @ 11:37 AM *

Hubster wrote:

Wait a minute, Kruz. Would not moving in or out the rich mixture to trim the fuel at altitude be heat related? Too lean and she heats up. Too fat and she overheats. So, you could say you tune for trim being a certain temp to stay within or you just burned the engine out with head temperature. Kind of like the same 'snake oil' theory with the dyno water temp and the airplane's window of flight in a certain temp or pull the rip cord. Right?

Hub, we tune aircraft for changes inj air density during climb by manual mixture control (old school method). Our modern Centurion turbo diesels use FADEC Full Authority Digital Engine Control or fly by wire throttle. One lever sets propeller load, manifold pressure and AFR simultaneously through a digital map similar to a Power Commander. The fuel injection system is N-Alpha, monitoring rpm (N) and throttle position (alpha) as primary inputs. We have 16 sensory inputs total monitoring manifold absolute pressure, barometric pressure, rpm, crank position and cam position for the injection cycle, throttle position, coolant temperature, air temperature and fuel rail pressure as well as oil pressure, oil temperature and gearbox temperature. Five sensors are redundant, hence a total of sixteen.

With the old school system, there are three engine controls, propeller control, throttle and mixture control. As you climb and air density drops the engine richens up and exhaust gas temperture (EGT) falls. Stoichiometric AFR around 14.7 to 1 yields peak EGT. All tuning is done by reference to this peak EGT using an EGT gauge. If peak always occurs at stochiometric then richening or leaning from that point will cause a drop in EGT so peak EGT is your reference point at any power setting. The pilots operating manual will call for a specific drop in EGT from peak depending upon power setting. At 100% power for example, one engine calls for operation at 50 degrees rich of peak while the same engine at 75% power requires operation at 25 degrees lean of peak EGT. Most aircraft piston engines will tolerate as much as 50 degrees lean of peak operation at 65% and below power settings without engine damage.

JDC, I am still trying to absorb all of your data, good stuff and it goes along with my thoughts on the whole tuning process. The butt dyno often can be fooled and a dyno or ET run at a drag strip is only way to confirm if you are moving in the correct direction or not. I noticed that your M109 was very sensitive to airbox/filter setup. Not to beat a dead horse but this is where I got into it with our friend Jeffo. I asked him how he could send me a correctly calibrated map for a setup he had never heard of on the CBR1000 i.e. the intake flapper mod. Essentially, the flapper is an airbox restrictor door that opens automatically via a vacuum operated canister when a certain rpm/load combination is reached. Racers found out that by simply unplugging the vacuum hose from the canister and plugging the hose, the spring loaded door stayed wide open all the time yielding an increase in bottom end torque and of course intake noise. This has to be tuned for as it upsets AFR down low similar to fly removal on earlier model ZX-14s. Sorry but I lose all confidence when someone tells me they can accurately compensate for complex tuning variables by sitting at a laptop and plugging in numbers. As you have found, many of these factors are counter-intuitive and the butt dyno can wildly lie. You may be losing 10 hp from your tune when you think you gained five. You may also be running way rich (Monster) or even worse, dangerously lean. I'm going back to the dyno and an O2 sensor for further tuning.

"From Kruz

JDC... As you have found, many of these factors are counter-intuitive and the butt dyno can wildly lie. You may be losing 10 hp from your tune when you think you gained five. You may also be running way rich (Monster) or even worse, dangerously lean. I'm going back to the dyno and an O2 sensor for further tuning."

Kruz, I wonder a few things as I think about this new tuning method which I don't know anything about, however it is done.

Observation 1: I've tried a whole bunch of custom maps from the M 109 (14 also), and of the 25-35 (?) or so for the M109 that were made off dynos for other peoples setups, from different parts of the US, only one came close to being reasonable, not great. There were 5-6 that were the same setup as my bike before the air box modd'ing, but the bikes and maps were from AZ and Fla, while I live in Ca, diff altitude. There functioned very poorly, too lean when later compared to my custom map made for local use. And it just doesn't take much for that AFR to lessen the bikes max potential (TTD).

As I understand the AZ maps worked great for the AZ bikes in the Phoenix area. Same mods, same HP gains off the same map at the same dyno. Makes perfect sense.

Where I am aiming at is that a tuner can use a 'same' map for a bike that has the same/very similar setup, and perhaps altitude/local temp. Once you get enough maps with those variables, or learn the compensation factors based upon a certain piece of equip, like I did with the custom filters I'd make, mapping was much more simple, or just using one already on hand.

I have no idea about how the tuning happens with the FAICS's method, which is the thrust of this thread, but I would like to see pre and post dyno pulls from using those types of maps, -vs- OEM and -vs- custom maps off a traditional dyno guy knowing what he's doing. I am not going to use anyone's "butt dyno", ears, or other physical observations to validate an improved (TTD) map. No disrespect is mean to the buyers. I just gotta have the data to show me.

You know, when I first took off the air box on th M109, it sounded like it was an F-16. The 'sound' of that new 'power' was tremendous and I really liked the sound... it was intoxicating Everyone noticed several long city blocks before I was in visual range - well before I ever got close to them. Hitting it, though, it was obviously flat - had lost power/performance/TTD. The dyno proved that as well. Though it would still kick a Harleys ass. That's not saying much.

Observation 2: If some folks are getting these maps for OEM bikes, then making a filter and pipe mod and install the map, without custom map, then it is easy to understand how they'd feel a map is great.

Observation 3: If they are observing the map is great, after they already had the mods done and then a custom map done off a dyno/DJ, and then they install this here FAICS new map, and things are now 'great', then I'd wonder if the first custom map was done well. I haven't let a map be made, or dyno pull be done on my bike, without be being by it's side (great learning).

Observation 4: Show me the data. Pre and post new dyno map and tuning to the bikes specific mods for both. Then show me that each FAIS map has the same result, data only please.

I am not trying to be a nay-sayer. Just scientific.

Observation 5: The buyers observations of these types of maps are correct and the maps do have much better outcomes. Then maybe there is a new 'science' or art to tuning. Don't know yet, as I haven't read how this tuning is realy done. No, I didn't read this whole thread.

Observation 6: Butt Dyno Effect or commonly known as B.D.E..

Formula: B.D.E. = Sum of/(M + P + N + BF + OV)/R

M = amount of money paid for a motorcycle mod item, plus
P = amount of money previously paid for a map that feels poor, plus
N = amount of money paid for a new map, plus
BF = butt factor (BF = C * ?/R2 - D) * B.M.I., where C = circumference, D = Depth butt cleft, BMI = fat factor
OV = other variables when used, SF * VI * TS, where SF =(sound factor) on a scale of 1-10 from previous subjective observation, VI = visual (impariment)observation on a scale from 1-10 in speed increase of bike over time and distance, TS = tactile sense where the 'feel' from the hand grips is more exciting, on a scale of 1-10.
as been shown to be inaccurate, time and time again.
R = real world reality coefficient, which is Sum of/(M + P + N + BF + OV)/R - Sum of/(M + P + N + BF + OV)/R - 1

If B.D.E. =< 0 then B.D.E. is valid, there is zero or less gain, and the map is bull shit.

* Last updated by: JDC on 3/8/2010 @ 6:25 PM *

no hub ... it called a time slip "at the track" ... and after every 1/4 mile pass you get 1 .. now roll that in your dyno pipe and smoke it

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 3/8/2010 @ 4:46 PM *

no hub ... it called a time slip "at the track" ... and after every 1/4 mile pass you get 1 .. now roll that in your dyno pipe and smoke it

lol

In one grouping of tests I found a break point for HP/TQ at 13.8-13.9. 13.8 down to 13.1 HP gain was consistently the same HP, and changing to 13.9 broke the HP gain and lost X HP. It was a significant loss. Best TTD was not at 13.1. There again was 1 3/4 sec difference in the 1/4 mile in the bike being best tuned for the 1/4 mile when tuning for TTD, away from a very good 13.1 map, which again, is DJ's way to tune a bike.

This is great info JDC. My brothers M-109 will be on the Dyno this week(all mods complete).If I'm reading this right, the best TTD was 13.8 not 13.1 Correct?

Romans,

No. Sorry to confuse. The 13.8 (13.9 actually) is where, with a certain setup, the TTD broke (HP and TQ as well). I was using that as an example of the variablility/sensitivity for AFR for tuning purpose. It was with a mod'ed air box, which hardly anyone uses. It was under a certain testing setup (mods). Not for general use in tuning 109's.

Best TTD was down a bit from there (13.8). Once I started doing the TTD tuning, I always first tuned a new mod to 13.1, and then tuned away from there in 1/10ths, going one direction first, and then the other, until I found the best TTD. There were times when 13.1 was best TTD, but the72.9.97.35/10th step checking would then also verify that. Then re-checked that the TTD's remained in that better range while at the 'sweet spot', and confirming it again as it was again tuned away, higher and lower, by 10ths. Once confirmed the map would be completed with the refined settings and checked when done. Takes a bit of time/patience.

* Last updated by: JDC on 3/8/2010 @ 6:50 PM *

Got it. Any other pointers or quirks in the M109 I should tell the tuner about? 300 for the tune, Hope he gets it right.

If I recall right, I think the bike can develop a little more HP if the map is rich'nd a tad from 13.1. That may no be the best TTD, however. What mods r u doing? One easy way for more HP, tuned for better TTD is a much larger CFM filter than what you can buy. Roll your own.

As I read the following link, I think I coud re-write it more clear now a days.

http://www.m109riders.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92551

If you are using stock K-N filters for the 109, doing this mod will add about 4 HP more than the conventional store bought K-N filter (with a pipe), and tuned to it. This filter is just about the full 'reach' of the 109s' ability to flow through the two side inlets. You can even remove the AI on the sides, and not get much more than this. After this level you are about left with modding the air box itself to gain more CFM/HP/TTD.

http://www.m109riders.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88410

* Last updated by: JDC on 3/8/2010 @ 7:03 PM *

PC3, Flies out ,GPro,Raw Performance Shorty, Thunder Tornados Air,Lowered, Rims with 280 Rear Tire.

I sure miss the looks of the 9. It is a beautiful bike.

If F.L.T.2.La.N.Ce = PCI (plumber cleavage indent) < 0 being the sum ~ Then one would not need to change undies is the mapiss crapiss went nowhere beat her than stock.

LMAO, = Can't Tune Over The Phone. If you do = crapiss. Did I get it lol.

Two guys lined up, one guy had 6 mph on the guy and still lost. He caught the guy right at the end.

if it was 2 fourteens and 1 was tuned by jeffo and the other was stock .. and the stocker out mph the tuned bike .. does it take a crack pipe breaking over your head to tell you something..

unless there was some sand bagging going on ... but i can sniff that shitt out from upwind

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 3/9/2010 @ 6:24 AM *

JDC wrote:

I have no idea about how the tuning happens with the FAICS's method, which is the thrust of this thread, but I would like to see pre and post dyno pulls from using those types of maps, -vs- OEM and -vs- custom maps off a traditional dyno guy knowing what he's doing. I am not going to use anyone's "butt dyno", ears, or other physical observations to validate an improved (TTD) map. No disrespect is mean to the buyers. I just gotta have the data to show me.

I am in complete agreeance here JDC. I too would like to see a $50 "Jeffo Dial-a-Tune" compared on an actual dynomometer to stock maps and a custom map actually done on a dyno by someone who knows what they're doing. I particularly want to see AFR data across the full range of throttle positions and rpms. If it turned out that Jeffo can tune over the phone better than an experienced DynoJet technican using the latest tuning link software than I will eat every word I have ever said about this guy...publicly.

I have no problem with free generic maps, Fuel Moto does it, DynoJet does it and Ivan does it. The big difference here is those guys actually put a bike on a dyno and map it before releasing that map to John Q. Public and in the case of Ivan, he does a lot of extra road work fine tuning the results. These guys are all a bit conservative i.e. they set them up a tad rich for liability reasons. You could extract a few percent more with a custom dyno tune I imagine but only if the operator knows what he is doing. If a guy is selling maps based on pure conjecture and guess work, that borders on criminal negligence IMHO. I have bills to pay like everyone else but I couldn't send this stuff out to "guinea pigs" with a clear conscience.

If a guy is selling maps based on pure conjecture and guess work, that borders on criminal negligence IMHO. I have bills to pay like everyone else but I couldn't send this stuff out to "guinea pigs" with a clear conscience.

2ND

Hub, I understand the equations, basic stuff here but the "plumbers cleavage" I'm not too sure about. Could you elaborate on this factor? This wasn't on Jeffo's pre-purchase questionaire, maybe that's why my tune was off.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 3/9/2010 @ 12:13 PM *

Hub, I didn't use the 9v battery to set my throttle points as the numbers on the high end didn't match up using this method. I shut her off with the kill switch then pegged the throttle and you get an accurate reading on that WOT throttle point. That was one thing I did pick up from Jethro that was useful.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 3/10/2010 @ 7:19 AM *

Jethro...Jeffo...what's the difference?

Finally got out today for a shake down run with my newly installed Jeffro fuel map.

Nice smooth power delivery. No more stumble & hesitation at 3,500 rpm. No deceleration popping either.

Very happy with the results so far. Headed to the dyno soon to get the sniffer hooked up and a couple of pulls to make sure the air fuel mixture is correct.

I will post up results of the dyno test in the next few weeks.

Thanks again Jeff.

zxrider11,

Can you take your 'old' map with you and do a handfull of pulls with that was well, so we can see a comparison?

Hub, I didn't use the 9v battery to set my throttle points as the numbers on the high end didn't match up using this method. I shut her off with the kill switch then pegged the throttle and you get an accurate reading on that WOT throttle point. That was one thing I did pick up from Jethro that was useful.

I also set the TP this way (found it by fluke). I called Dyno-jet and had them link up with my computer so they could see what I see. At first they did not believe me(2007)but now sounds like almost every one knows the 9volt should be tossed out the window.