" Leaned over you are just ass upright suspension wise"...uh...no...you're not...c'mon Hub...you can't be serious here?Plz...say you're not;)And Kruz...you're right...I was a tad harsh...I don't want to start anything...I'll be civil...for you.(thanks bro for reminding me).

I KNOW I'm not the only one that's heard of 'the suspension settling in a corner"....or..."how to upset your suspension right pronto by doing" .....(fill in the blank).

"OK, you brought up an excellent point Grn or actually several.
Body positioning and how you move with the bike has a huge impact on how the machine reacts, using your legs as part of the suspension softens those big, high speed G out bumps that would normally necessitate adding low speed compression on both ends and then more low speed rebound to control the kick back. Those adjustments might affect handling on other parts of the track and not necessarily in a good way. Every change you make is going to effect other parts of the handling equation so the necessity to think it through"...don't worry Kruzer...Hub will be right along to bash what I've said....it's cool.

notice at 2:26-2:58....imagine a sportbike suspension instead of a horse's legs.

Can anyone explain why a sportbike(or any other)would 'wallow' in a turn?

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 6/25/2013 @ 12:21 AM *

Yes Cblast is correct it was I that was asking about the suspension. Something I am studying myself and looking to dial in. Thanks C for posting info. Some of the tecnical jargon has been tough to follow. I need a laymen's guide to adjust or as I mentuioned a person to pay while receiving some education.

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...uh...no...you're not...c'mon Hub...you can't be serious here?Plz...say you're not;)

When you accelerate, does the back wheel raise the swing arm? Not squatting the bike, but slow accel like around a turn. Does the bike dive in the front you accelerate around a turn with throttle on. We are not talking about lift and dives, we are talking sustained speed around a turn. Has the suspension collapsed or is in lift motion as in the springs are not being compressed if I feel the front end go light and wants to wheelie. The question is, are we in compression mode w/throttle apply, not lift! Yes or no? Think about it.

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That is a lot of fork tube showing on that leg, yes or no? And you can't tell if that bike is under decel or accel.

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Looking at these pics Hubs, I've got a lot of work to do Homie!

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Looking at this pic the first thing that comes to mind is these guys have zero protective gear, no knee sliders elbow protectors or even a helmet. Look at the terrain, they're on a serious downhill and it looks like from the radius of the turn and lean angle they're carrying some serious speed through that corner.

Bottom line: Future Organ Donors

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Simple physics demands the whole motorcycle compresses downward in a turn...the degree(radius) and speed dictate how much that occurs.The force is downward...compressing.It can't help it,unless you crank the suspension all the way in...then the tires take the brunt.

You can say 'lift' on acceleration...fine...or squat on accelleration...the bike NEVER completely settles in unless the surface is perfectly smooth and the radius/speed is a constant...It doesn't matter showing bicyclists railing...whole different animal.Anyone can lay in the road and have their picture taken....

Why do you think draggers tighten the rear methodically and get just the right amount of 'squat'.?The same reason racers do it for the curves.To control the bike's natural chassis movement.Why do you think a motorcycle will slide out from a turn at speed?Lousy tires?What does pogoing in a curve create?And why would that happen?Saying a bike does not compress on it's suspension while cornering is,well,....what do I know?

"That is a lot of fork tube showing on that leg, yes or no?"...IDK...is it?Showing a pic of a frontend and leaned in reveals nothing about his suspension.You can't tell me whether he's compressing or rebounding...silly example...and totally unusable for this discussion.

And speaking of 'squat'...what's the purpose of setting sag then?

See what happens if you apply front brake while cornering and adding throttle while leaned in.Why is trailbraking a useful tool for setting up and entering a turn?

"When you accelerate, does the back wheel raise the swing arm? Not squatting the bike, but slow accel like around a turn"....uh...hmmm...let's see..oh yeah,okay,the rear wheel raises uh huh...ya..that's right...it pushes the frame in the rear upwards,yeah...that's right.With enough acceleration,it'll throw that rider right offa there..yeah...that's right.All in the wheel....yup...you're right there Hub.

I guess g-forces have nothing to do with how the bike reacts in curves or straights.And those pesky rebound/compression screws really have no use on a suspension at all....okay...I got it.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 6/25/2013 @ 10:45 AM *

Changing subjects for a moment, we have a surprise winner in Motorcycle USA's 2013 Supersport Shootout.
I won't spoil it for you but the bike was green....lol!

http://m.motorcycle-usa.com/156/16421/Motorcycle-Article/2013-Kawasaki-Ninja-ZX-6R-Supersport-Comparison.aspx

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It's okay Kruz...change the subject...I think we all learned here that the suspension really plays no part in whether the bike handles smoothly and stably...so it's cool.Everyone should just yank those dampner screws outta there...and be done with it;)

Au contraire Mr Grn, we should start twisting those dampner screws before we even ride the bike to see if there are handling issues. Change the oil level, plug in new cartridges, revalve, new stack of wave washers, twist the preload adjusters, leave no adjustment unadjusted but don't ride the bike to see if there are actually any suspension issues first. If there are no problems, let's create some by gosh! Our motto will be "if it ain't broke, we'll fix it til it is broke!

OK, just kiddin Grn.

Now that Supersport win is mightily impressive for Kawasaki, they bested a huge field of machines, many with significant displacement advantage and came out on top. Once again Mother Green fielded a superbly balanced machine and slew the giants.

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"if it ain't broke, we'll fix it til it is broke!"LMAO!Yup....tear that beotch apart till we have a complete rebuild in our own image!THAT's how ya do it fer sure...your very own custom mule!

As a guy who studied physics I enjoyed Greens synopsis or a motorcycle at speed in a turn. Rather elegant if I don't say so myself!!!

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Yep, Grn had a good analysis there and Hub had no response. Looks like Grn wins this bout with a TKO....lol!

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Oh no, Kruz. Grn is like 64. YOu can't see the forks extended, then no matter what pic I send in, you won't see it. Can't tell them anything. They are like Ivan. Think I believe Ivan you are not in limp mode? Passing it off as some hot rod setting? HA Rod is your balls are not even excited yet.

Once you bang it into a turn, it settles and now, elegantly sense your distance away from that rail and all is one smooth move. I keep my tires over 42 psi so I don't dent rims around here. You'll see it happen quick is that bang [when I] knocked a little breath out the body. Say about 65 or 70 taking that hit?

Go put your gopro on the front end before I do. Show that fork collapse [after the transition] and now you are railing around the circle at same fork height, yes or no?. And put a zip tie at the top of the stroke too, and don't back off of the gas. That means straight up and down bounding will set the zip downward. Now you need to go find a rail, lean over and see where that zip is to the top leg and bottom fork?

WOT makes you bet I can't get that novice, green as a cactus, to go railing or walling with me... I need some riding school? I'll get MAN64 to sit on the back with me and he'll pick up a shitload of tricks. Probably shit in his pants too.

I'll force it out of him.

Now, get your theory going, greenie. Crank it over and nail it. Use the skid setting if need be so the back end does not come around on you.

* Last updated by: Hub on 6/26/2013 @ 7:26 AM *

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Hub...;)I've videod my arse off at the forks,...around curves...the whole 9 yards.I aint saying the machine doesn't stabilize enough for a smooth run...it will if the road is smooth and the inputs remain 'constant'...but how many roads have that?I can watch in my vids the forks compressing and rebounding all the time..turning,straights...you name it.That wasn't really the deal here.You know what I'm saying.

"The question is, are we in compression mode w/throttle apply, not lift!"...that's a question with a trick answer...if it's compressed when you apply throttle,then it's gonna lift...you know that.If it compressed and the G-force downward eases,it's gonna lift...so what are you trying to say?I aint talkin lifting as in the front getting light and all...I'm talking the chassis moving up or down at the front and back....settling,moving.The more you increase your dampner settings,the less the chassis is gonna react...so it IS possible to have a very stiff,quick settling machine...it won't feel worth a damn on nice straightline roads....unless they're fault free.You want harsh...stiffen it all up.Might be fine for a track..with known road conditions and all...but for the street...your tires are gonna go bye bye real quick.

I'm not trying to 'win' a round;)I understand the physics of the suspension...regardless.And how moving around on the seat in any given curve can change how the chassis reacts.Lean angle...speed...braking or not braking.Seat position.It all ties together with the chassis setup.That's all I'm saying really.To say it doesn't compress with G-loads...okay...if you think so...;)

Soften up your settings all the way out..see what your bike does at different conditions.Speed,lean,radius,road.Then tell me it doesn't 'compress' with added force from turning.Compressing is compressing...whether it's CLEARLY visible or not.What does it do when you hit a dip in the road....when it reaches the other side of it....rebound?or compress first?

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 6/26/2013 @ 8:35 AM *

Hub, lettuceknot confuse Grn and 64, Grn is an old hand, payed his dues around here and has the knowledge and experience. When you start walking the tech with Grn, you're best to bring your A game with you, just my .02. 64 on the other hand is literally green, still wet behind the ears, young pup....well maybe not so young .... you could take him under your wing like you once did with Rook. Men tore 64?

* Last updated by: Kruz on 6/26/2013 @ 8:36 AM *

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I haven't raced or ridden track...so I guess I can't possibly understand how the stuff works...I guess?Spent a lot of time adjusting my suspensions though...for lots of different conditions...S'all good.And that don't make me a expert either.

What do you do if you are gonna hit an object in the road...say,a 2x4?You want to accelerate just before hitting it,and have your body OFF the seat.Not having all that weight slamming into the frontend at impact.I understand the hitting the hole deal...I've done it...a couple of times...and yes...it hurts like hell.I try to look ahead for stuff like that...if there IS one..I get OFF THE SEAT as soon as I'm hitting it.Much smoother that way...sometimes you can't see em...I get it.Same with transitions on bridges and stuff.Some of those can be very harsh on your neck...I know.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 6/26/2013 @ 8:46 AM *

When you start walking the tech with Grn, you're best to bring your A game with you, just my .02.

A for A wallet? If I want to bring my A game is A, I Ain't gotta clue! Me no listen to someone who changes only one tire at a time. Has someone to change the tire too. That's without balancing the tires too. I got your A game right here... JM2c

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I'll get MAN64 to sit on the back with me and he'll pick up a shitload of tricks. Probably shit in his pants too.

For the cost of lunch and maybe a drying cleaning bill for soiled underpants, 64 would gain a wealth of experience from riding two up with you Hub. You might suggest this.

Now with Grn, you two are going at it again, you do remember how it ended last time? Got pretty ugly as I recall, are you sure you want round 2?

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"Me no listen to someone who changes only one tire at a time"...kinda like using 30 year old oil in there,aint it Hubster?Let's not get confused here...EVERYONE bends the rules as they go along...nothing wrong with that.And BTW...WHO exactly made the decree.."Thou must change both tires together"....that's like replacing front and rear brake pads together...you do that do you?Just so you can say you did?;)

"That's without balancing the tires too". I do have my tires balanced.They did it just last tire change...so?

Because I help the local economy and take my rims to get changed by someone else,I'm incompetent?That's what you're saying,yes?Okay...guess I am then.

Hell no Kruz...HUb knows I'm right on this...He's right as well...somewhat.He's using his Hub speak to slip outta it,but he knows what's up.

And no...I didn't get a throttlebody sync at 5K,as was suggested.And yes...my bike is smooth as glass in all gears and rpms...so what?If a guy wants to try that,fine...to each their own;)And yes...my bike did have a vibing period...which settled out nicely by leaving it alone.And that may not work for everyone....s'all good.

And that rightmost guy laying in that picture above with the two bicyclists...he's gonna give Spies a run for money with his sliding;)(course,they need to ACTUALLY be moving to attain that...but...what the hell...it looks cool;)

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 6/26/2013 @ 9:08 AM *

Kruz, I'm going to wear out grn like it's xmas day and oh look, a dizzy airifle! I'm going to wear out the leather gasket so the compression is... What did you say, grn? A gamed my 220 pee yes I said that compression was up there clowny. 30 years and counting what do you think is in bust her brown shoes is I see you have yours on too. You Forking Clown Shoes!

kinda like using 30 year old oil in there,aint it Hubster?

Yes. I rest my 30 year old cases.

"Thou must change both tires together"....that's like replacing front and rear brake pads together...you do that do you?Just so you can say you did?;)

Where are you coming up withis logic? Pads? I still had the same pads looking brand new after 27k on the bike. Totally different deal. Now if you said, I'll only CHANGE ONE FORK LEG WORTH OF OIL, then yeah, I can see that. Chain and sprockets? I'm going to buy a new chain and one sprocket, use the old front one and wear it down double the speed of the fresh new ones I installed? And I'm only going to change the oil to half. Add two quarts and yeah, I changed my oil like I do my tires. LOL

"That's without balancing the tires too". I do have my tires balanced.They did it just last tire change...so?

Why the change? You mean with all the tires being changed you had to pay for, a cheap vice and a wheel stand would have been all you needed throughout those years of riding. How you keep shelling out the cash is you must have had a good allowance from someone?

Because I help the local economy and take my rims to get changed by someone else,I'm incompetent?That's what you're saying,yes?Okay...guess I am then.

You said it not me.

Hell no Kruz...HUb knows I'm right on this...He's right as well...somewhat.He's using his Hub speak to slip outta it,but he knows what's up.

Slip outta shit. You see my point and I see yours. Yours is compression on the transition, mine is in the sustained. And that means heavy bang down. Not some smoothe railing. You see my shoulder compress or lift on the sustained? It says the springs are settled from transition. So for you to say it is compressed all around the rail is BS!

And no...I didn't get a throttlebody sync at 5K,as was suggested.And yes...my bike is smooth as glass in all gears and rpms...so what?

If MAN has a 12 or 13 and we swap bikes, he'll let you know about 3 bikes being smooth and who ranks smoother? You are not even close and that is book spec is just follow that out.

If a guy wants to try that,fine...to each their own;)And yes...my bike did have a vibing period...which settled out nicely by leaving it alone.And that may not work for everyone....s'all good.

Now, could the linkage wear out some and dial your plates in more? Possibly. But to say it smoothed out as if the plates never moved? Hard to say where as I at least have a sub-variable to dial in your smoothing change.

* Last updated by: Hub on 6/26/2013 @ 9:58 AM *

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Yep, that is a staged photo 4 sure, either that or both low sided out after that pic was shot, can't bend the laws of physics.

Throttle body synch, 18K here with no synch on my 14. Right or wrong? What are the symptoms of out of synch, poor throttle response and unstable idle, vibration? Goes back to what I said, if it ain't broke should I fix it until it is broke?

OK suspension, Mother Teapot sets baseline parameters, oil level, damping curves, spring rate, preload etc. The basics are there, the adjustments are the fine tune as I see it. If the baseline settings are way off then all the adjustments in the world are not going to help. Example, if Teapot sets spring rate for 160 lbs and you weigh 220 will cranking down on the preload fix it? No, you haven't changed the basic spring rate, it's too soft. Yes, you can get sag height correct but you'll still blow through the travel. Fix is in the new spring set to match your weight and adjust comp and rebound to control the spring action. Preload adjustment is only the fine tune,if the basic spring rate is way off you're masking the problem not correcting it.

Every setting change is a compromise, stiffen it up to
control chassis pitch on the brakes and small bump compliance suffers.
The racer decides chassis control is key to fast laps and rides around the chatter.

Lower your tire pressure and side grip goes up but turn in force increases, again compromise, one lump or two?

Hot cam picks up 5 HP at 14,000 and 2mph on that long straight, low end goes bye-bye and I lost 3 mph on corner exit....compromise??

At the end of the day suspension is there to keep the tire patch on the ground where it belongs but no setting is perfect. The best setting for YOU is the one with the most positives and least negatives. This is why I take a very conservative approach to suspension adjustments, when it's broke, them fix it but understand any change brings compromise.

* Last updated by: Kruz on 6/26/2013 @ 10:21 AM *

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"What are the symptoms of out of synch, poor throttle..." Yes, big time.

"... response and unstable idle?" Yes, again, you are missing the instant response, faster starting, stable idle.

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