Well, say what you will, I'll take Kruz'is few short miles of [his] seat of the pants observation. Seems all these seasoned rag riders conclude to the same thing... Fastest thing since sliced bread, but that peanut butter jelly slam much is not much better, if some edge was where is it?

I'm not going to c&p one more; And ladies and gentlemen, the rr comes in from open practice. They are still trying to massage the front end to steer.

Wow...still defensive after posting a completely unbiased assessment of what are probably the two best liter bikes in production today. With the 10R rider clearly stating it's the "best handling liter bike" among lots of other high praise and superlatives, like "It's a bit of a cop out to say the 10R handles like a 600cc supersport bke. However, it does exhibit a lightness of touch and rate of turn not too far away to it's smaller sibling, but a more accurate statement would be that it handles like no other liter bike, especially the way it turns."
.

The post was to once again to demonstrate the brilliance of both machines.

How you still get that one of the bikes doesn't steer, after comments like the quote below, first hand feedback from an owner, (me), and dozens of other reviews, is beyond me, especially since you haven't ridden one, and Kruz rode mine for maybe 2 miles and wrote a positive review of the bike on this forum afterward.
"For something as extreme as this, the S1000RR is almost too easy to ride fast. The bike has the wonderful weightless sensation through corners that is, for me, the whole point of riding a motorcycle. It attacks bends with astonishing accuracy in a completely unflusterd way and gets back on the gas with such naked aggression that keeping the front on the ground isn't an option."

Thought you guys were bike enthusiasts not "Brand enthusiasts.":)

No Jag, objective. Team rr has handling issues. The 10r wins? That's why I read the last news of wsb. How could all that fancy front end keep the bike in the pits, the 10r is lapping the faster times.

1 + = No pit minutes - Wins
- 1 = Pit minutes - No show

If we were to be bias, I'd have the rr even? We just moved to one area. And if we keep moving to the next area.

2+ = 1 extra HP has the 10r
1 = 1 less HP is add up the front end and now the engine.

Are we going to start with field, and field, means product satisfaction:

3+ = Don't hear any ignition glitches like launch?
-1 = Back to showing you that glitch of a launch, Larry Pegram dropping launch and everything else.

Come on... I'm being objective and if I could tell the ape was not my kind of puppy at a few hundred feet, I trust Kruz can tell, being his fleet is a pretty well rounded ride-hing-to-HP-feel for the ergos and whatnot.

* Last updated by: Hub on 7/3/2013 @ 12:00 PM *

SBK 2013 Standings
------------------
Superbike

Tom SykesKawasaki235
Sylvain GuintoliAprilia229
Eugene LavertyAprilia190
Marco MelandriBMW182
Chaz DaviesBMW154

Superstock
----------

Sylvain BarrierBMW95
Niccolò CanepaDucati83
Jeremy GuarnoniKawasaki70
Eddi La MarraDucati69
Leandro MercadoKawasaki60

But at the end of the day Hubster, I don't really care; honestly:) I think BMW set the sport bike world on it's ear with the introduction of the S1000RR and they have done an incredible job in SBK in the short 3 seasons they've raced.
I just rode it last night back to back with my CBR 1000RR. Both great, VERY different bikes. One feels specialer:)

I ride for Sunday mornings back roads mostly and every time I get off the BMW I say "what a freaking motorcycle." That said, I've said it a bunch---love the ZX-10R! Love it love it love it! Ask Kruz what I said after our short 2-5 mile bike swap:) I was breaking in the Bimmer just getting to know the bike. The 10R felt like an old friend, and the Bimmer still to me felt like it was pissed off and wanted to kill me:) I told Kruz "I think I'm in trouble" which is my standard line before I head to the MC toy store and make some impulsive purchase. Wouldn't have traded the S1000RR mind you. Just can't see parting with that bike after the bonding period...special bike that it is. (Those comments about holding the line and attacking bends with astonishing accuracy and wonderful weightless sensation are the kinds of comments I try to use to describe what makes the bike feel special. Those comments do an excellent job of it, but I digress.

I am VERY aware of how incredibly good Japanese motorcycles are. Had to have at least one in my garage and could have bought the 10R, (and likely will), but viewed the Honda as a bit more variety, thus no real brand loyalty here.

I've never ridden an Italian bike that I liked either though, so I understand you like what you like. Its all good. I'd really like to see your face after a real spirited ride on the S1000RR though. From what I can tell you're a pretty good rider and appreciate a machine that deliver the goods. I think you might see what all the buzz is about. But will say again, can't ride it 2 miles and make that conclusion. Well you can, it will just not be doing the bike justice:)
Happy 4th of July!!!

I hear ya, Jag. I too cannot get in the way of brand loyalty. Way too many handler, power, 'fits my needs' kind of bikes out there. Is the rr perfect for me? No, The R? No. The ape? No. Is the 14 going to be long in the tooth about 3 years from now and both bikes well be the slow ones we used to know> Yes.

Hub we are flogging that dead horse again, both bikes have good credentials, it all comes down to that special feeling you get when you open the garage door in the morning. BMW takes that win, the Ducati and MV are the same way. I can't afford any of them right now so it's a moot point for me.

Jag, you bought the CBR1000RR, four bikes in the garage now?

Post up some pics of the new Honda. Repsol version?

Once again, my shunning stick is nowhere to be found.

I hear ya, Jag. I too cannot get in the way of brand loyalty. Way too many handler, power, 'fits my needs' kind of bikes out there. Is the rr perfect for me? No, The R? No. The ape? No. Is the 14 going to be long in the tooth about 3 years from now and both bikes well be the slow ones we used to know> Yes.

Hubster, you don 't talk much about the Aprilia experience, I'm getting the feeling the Eurobike experience was not all what you expected. I do remember you mentioning the electrical connectors looked like something right out of Sears Automotive but what about the power delivery and handling portions of the equation? Do tell!

I heard the aprillas are kind of high maintenance, a lot of owners said most of the valves were out of spec after only a few thousand miles, would love to ride one though ....

Oh, I'm just spoiled by those different connectors. Open your computer tower if you still own one. Look for a two wire connector that is in white. Those are the turn signal connectors. Light, yes, but it's more off the shelf than a factory signature. Say old honda male female connectors were signature connectors. Rare were there uni-connects like now. So for that bike to demand that sort of price tag, a connector that looks all Tandy, I forget that company name you go buy your Ivan's from?

That's one 'gee, that is some "BEAN COUNTING" to get that profit margin going. The other one is the stability or more the phantom input to the warm up mapping. Here, if I do not move that TPS so far, my guess is this thing never comes off of idle: it is so freaking dangerous. That's not normal input of course is my typical MO to any other bike being 3 of the 14's I've owned in between. This is more you call the factory, it's 'keep your hands on the bars' kind of, 'let it sit and warm up, no touch the throttle;' then it is a perfect specimen in every way.

So for me to see how sensitive the electronics are, it's not really a pain, sans of letting it warm out a little before I take off. So can this 02 be that stable vs. the 14 in open loop? I can't tell? Oh yeah I mean, I can tell every 14 so far has shown not a high idle glitch when I MO the, 'leave before the oil light turns off' kind of leave that soon. So no, it means the electronics are still grades higher than the 14's few default blinks. For example, you might remember the turn signal warning light comes on, tells you what corner is out? Now that is some slick, trick, memory planning. Lots more programming too.

There are no complaints about the electronics, no. Looking back, I'd use the exact same connectors because, they are lightweight, universal: I burn one out say, I have off the shelf OE that looks bone stock if you want to be that anal on the repair. So if my complaints seem like I'm going to score points, it's still 100% flawless.

Having the electrics and electronics resolved, I just put up a video of how that bike sounds, handles, shifts up, shifts down, it's throttle delivery, it's sensitivity: it shows me a lot. It's deceiving is the speed on the video. I know the real time and there is one section that if you look behind the bike, time 6:15 starts, see how the bike gobbles up that straightaway with a little kink, the bike goes in there as seamlessly at 6:21 say? Where I saw the cars up ahead and rolled off. That means even faster if they weren't there, and that was the fastest run into a corner I've taken with this or say it spooked me.

When I felt that bike carry me into that turn, to tell you the truth, I was sold how well it handled. It's getting close to 5k and I don't ride it much. I rather keep the miles down for a selling point. Euro wise was your comment? Think about it. I was willing to sacrifice this handling for that duc monster, but when I was shocked to hear I was on the faster bike, I was more, thinking... This is it? This is as [fast] as today's twin will go? That's 14 speed spoilage talking.

If you want to feel some sketchy handling, try a duc. If they still have that chassis mentality like the time I rode a Paso, when I Lini'dat scary quick steer over, it was wow, I almost threw this guy's bike away!? Looking back when that first came out, I see why Rossi never got a handle on that brand. Stoner could jump on anything and win. I've swapped a lot of bikes under me, but sans a few junk or 'you need to ride it super careful' were the one'offs I've experienced. That Paso was not hinged well, IMO. There was a tri that handled well. Different. Maybe better for racing, but street? You couldn't put it thru WOT you could on the track, so that triumph was pretty much up there in the hinge dept.

We circle back to the ape, we have a superior transmission over the rest. Short throws, tight gearing, plenty of gear left. So if we were to line up all the boxes my left foot could choose who will lose and who wins? Hands down is the ape wins so far. I'm still batting 100% is the handling, the box, and now comfort. No shit, my ass is less in ache mode than the R's seat. And that is more like a racing pad is the ape's. Cushioned some yes, but nothing at all you could call thick vs. cheek rejection.

Were are we? Comfort zone? Or pilots seat? Those goofoffs threw me off over at the ape site for so many reasons, I had to blow smoke up theirs and kept laughing at their mods. They were running a sprocket so this thing would not continue to shift so much is my guess? Ruined the whole point of this box being semi close ratio, or almost close to it. They removed the snorkel intake restrictor and when I tried that, the whole wheelie action took a dive. So I laughed that one off and returned it to stock. It wants to [and does with ease] carry me over the intersection, it's that well tuned, that much torque to bring it right up.

Ass big as mine is, as long as mine are, why am I cramped on such a huge bike, but the ape fits so well for Joe-A. Yes, you sit up more on this bike. We are pushing the same front tire sizes, sans, you run a 17-55, I run a 17-50 rear. So we are pretty much on par with tire size. Why does, and I don't see it addressed yet, but who keeps pulling off foot pegs to lower their legs some? Why is the ape that better at leg to peg placement? You kind of wonder. I'm still sporting 100% better seating @ sustaining, nor are the legs are they straining.

So power for power, we are not concerned about standing on the rear [brakes] no matter who's you step on. We have some decent front brakes that can take charge and is on par with the 14's kind of braking ratio. Power dept ratio seems to be beating some of the twins. Don't know if the KTM is a contender vs. handling? I'm sure there might be some power in the engine. I don't know if the box can stack up to the rotax design? Unless KTM is farming out to rotax? Then, smack my lips, it might have some garage potential. If those aholes would import the right bike, fun fujcking jerks me off is jerk them off and that decision not to import that reach around.

If you only could read that writeup on this bike when it fist came out. That was one detailed, nailed every point, there were that many expectations met and exceeded. And it is still 100% there in every way. Would I jump on the V4? I tired to trade in the bike but I'm not going to take a bath on this one. It was, still is, worth more than today's twin offer. Where is some twin that can come up against this ape? KTM looks close to doing it. But then again, are we looking at a rotax?

* Last updated by: Hub on 7/4/2013 @ 12:00 AM *

You know what, cara? Another reason these clowns are comical. I checked the valves. They are holding well. Faster, easier than doing a 14's valves. I bled the brakes. To them, they have someone pulling the whole caliper off the bike, hanging the rear up in the air, with the nipple aimed directly north.

So between the chain gang my sprockets, the snorkel'ers, the brake nipple'ers, the valves are a pita too, you see a bunch of modifying snivelers complaining about the tampering they've done? I'm bone stock and this is just like the 14. Go mess with the engineers if you must.

I've got zero complaints. My complaint is generic. "I want something faster." Is why I rotate my rides.

That is one of the best write ups I have ever read.

Now...

I have never ridden the 1199, but my complaint about the 1098 when she was stock was that she was overly stable. Via Dan Kyle I went to a slightly steeper steering offset and then the full suspension schmear. She handles very well. Lightning fast, precise input response. I am using a bitubo damper which I love. Very linear with a light feel and positive adjustments. I can change lines mid corner almost too easy aboard the duc. Requires all of my attention not be sloppy. Reward is high corner speed and a confidence at lean that makes you feel planted enough to adjust as necessary. The duc (1098) set up correctly is a corner speed beast. But my top speed is probably only 165. All the big boys pass me by like 155 if they are good. Basically a high investment for a very uncomfortable track tool. The duc needs a 7th gear. Pulls into the rev limiter so hard in sixth it makes me wish for a 14R. Oh, yeah, wait a minute, now this girl is flawless!

* Last updated by: Cblast on 7/4/2013 @ 4:16 AM *

She is a mean ole' lady fo show, nothing on my other bikes...R1, zx6r, and a sprinkle of Honda, and Suzi...

She is a mean ole' lady fo show, nothing on my other bikes...R1, zx6r, and a sprinkle of Honda, and Suzi...

Thanks, C. I too found myself on that duc of yours, visualizing what the rr, penny golly gee look at me, the ktm, ape, all have a certain hinge to it. The weight distribution, the O/A length of the bike, all those factors make or break the bike. I can tell how you meant in so many words, 'the bike will dart if you move it ever so slight.' Same here... I think?

If you boys are new to the R, then you have no idea how the 14 and R are not alike: steering dept wise. The 14 is stable. Say the R demands stable! If we took the duc/ape, pulled bar at 150 plus, my guess is: we would be just as quick a turn as it is riding the bike slow thru turns.

That's one reason the 14 is not what you'd call [has] a decent neck for turning. There is too much pull at it. Whereas the rr and 14 just may be in the same ballpark as in better 'top speed handling?;' sacrifice some downstairs maneuvers? Were we [rr/14] are so stable around a corner, yes the input is fast, but not ape/duc fast.

I would think Jag, MAN64, what's his name, the drummer who first bought an rr for a day tracker right away? You 3 could probably explain the difference. Because my guess is the rr at [track speed] may be a slow turner like the 14? Not as agile, snap to attention, the slightest input sends you flying are the Italian liter bikes. Yes, no? The RR turnsloWSB my bike?

So WOT I'm saying is the rr is in the pits with a 'handling problem,' and no, not a front end [oil out the hole] cushion problem. They are fighting a hinge to swing arm length problem, 'race wise.' Street wise, it won't show up. It's all in that pleasure mode of compatibility is that 'compromised hinge.' See how C already went after a hinge change to that duc?

"Now this girl is flawless." I'll say!

You got that exactly Hub! The hinge change angle was what I needed to give me that almost dart like handling you describe. Sharp, quick, intuitive. The Duc's hinge setup idea originally (compared to the 999), was a longer swingarm, steeper steering head. It was good, I exacerbated that head angle slightly, lost non of my high speed stability and gained the razor sharp quick. Probably a lot like the Ape, without the balls in the motor. Don't get me wrong, notice I haven't mentioned too much about the motor. If we go there and start talking about sound and staccato and character passion, the facts of the discussion will melt like a candle. I do love the torquey twin for the crazy liquid feeling drives off the corners. Kinda same why for my riding style the 14R is perfect. I love the off corner drive. That's what she said.

* Last updated by: Cblast on 7/4/2013 @ 8:37 AM *

If we go there and start talking about sound and staccato and character passion, the facts of the discussion will melt like a candle.

I do love the torquey twin for the crazy liquid feeling drives off the corners. Kinda same why for my riding style the 14R is perfect. I love the off corner drive. That's what she said.

Same as saying, I'm waiting for 'she made me do it' is reach around for the next 'out the corner drive,' because at this end, 'CASH WAITING!" And mother teapot comes thru every time.

I have now read all I can about ur Ape and I am fing drooling Hub. Freddie spencer said 'that's one of the best bikes I have ever ridden!' So now my lust is divided. I love motorcycles!!!!!

Hey Hub! Didn't ya post a vid somewhere of you on that Ape?? Would ya re-link me?? Thanx!

I believe Freddie might be talking about the V4? Unless he rode a twin? I have the V2win. If they stuck it in this frame, that's my guess? If so, when I flicked a 4 between my legs, yes it was light. Ever so slightly heavier. Slow do I flick more mass for a better note? That'$ how I look at it. And how do you look at this vid? Note for note, I put an ear to this puppy. I watched how far out I was going with the sync, the rest by ear.

I think I may have had a few teens registered first out on the mileage? Pulled over. Turned the cam on. Let the car go: so I could be paced slow much. With this throttle body, no plates to adjust: just two air screws to sync. Ear as close as I got it. Set the rev limiter at the required break in rev range -wink-wink: I told you this has some toggling pages to play with, no? Did I explain the closed course 'how fast was my last lap' menu?

I like to keep my distance from the car(s) in front. This is so I can run into a few corners, see how it dives into them? It's a little flicker 'with a lots of rocker.' 'Year a one fin mentality, Chan Lure.' Hand me my bored, ______ Fill in the blank, [my trivia line is... WOT's the line?] Oh yeah, 'a real hinge.'

I have that white sports car behind me that thinks hes the 'Who Weeeee,' the 'Sue Weed,' is going to take OUR Waves! Curves and all the rest. Where can the guy go? So he tailgates me. The courtesy is I gap up front? See my gap or are you that close you can see gap is my plumber cleavage? OK, take some of dis!

I am at the top of compression canyon. Swing around with feet up, lose it, throttle out off it. Heavy is the traffic for that road. Many are the cherry gumballs pee troll'inn. Slow every corner is heads up and sit up or lift, because traffic is coming the other way. This is where that corner makes this bike run like sap down a maple tree. All fluid inn the smooth, you be cutting that bark at the exhaust note.

I was so pissed and slow glad this bike was now making me lift thru that corner. I was not going to back off until shit! I plow into that car coming or the other one? Relax, this bike is not even breathing thru that turn. So from that straightaway, I aim for the white line, kiss that, setup for this blind sweeper and abort she goes. Same as the rail ride. I see that white box coming the other way and here I abort some speed with the 14 on that one too.

I hook up with another ape rider. A 250 twin-2-stroke. That thing was no slouch. So I follow him, let the cam take his lines, I take my lines. He's braking, I'm gassing it up. I'm waiting for the last... Annnnnd let him go. Later he tells me he never saw either move. And guess what?

Allright, first off, that right there is one absolutely fine example of what I think of as FLAWLESS street riding. I think I even caught you give a couple other riders the wave at speed! :))) you mad bastard! That vid should be posted as a sticky. It should be required viewing for all wannabes. Period. Your dissection of the corners was very nearly perfect, and may have been perfect! Hard to tell if a couple of the lines I saw were not due to road traffic etc. most likely considering the skill you hit everything else with. Your bike handles A LOT like my duc from that vid. almost hard wired to your cortex. Gotta be careful what line you think cause you will be there NOW! One day I would like to ride with ya Hub. I think we would have a fuckin blast! The bike sounds great! I like the staccato top end vibrato. ;))) beautiful ride.

* Last updated by: Cblast on 7/4/2013 @ 1:42 PM *

Appreciate it, C. It takes a lot of multitasking to geTThere. You need to watch traffic, pee forum your lines, watch traffic, pee inn the snow, watch traffic and if the old saying goes, if you can do it, I can do it. No wait, the other way around!

Slow is more important than fast? No wait. You need both? Then you need his two buddies up front.

1. Front brakes? Check.
2. Fast? Gotta be. Check.
3. Slow? Most define A TT as one who eats or it 'eats (on) me.' Check Please! Oh shit, WOT am I doing with this? Wolfy won the lotto is what goTToes here!

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm TTea I scream! Having a greaTTime!

Signed,

C? Wolfy? NOLTT wiShoe were here!

I am in! I gotta buy more lotto tickets! I have plenty of family in Europe. My dad was from Kingston upon Thames. I spent quit a bit of time riding the roads around the countryside in England as a young lad! ;) I would go there every year to stay with family in the off season from fishing etc. My cousin still lives and works at a cardboard box factory outside Liverpool. He rides a 916! :)) I am pretty sure I could rustle myself up a decent bike for a few weeks bumming around Europe.

* Last updated by: Cblast on 7/4/2013 @ 2:49 PM *

ZX 14 Nation goes to Europa???
Where do I get in on this?
W