Anyone that is getting upset is missing the point.

My point is not unclear, Hub.

Some who post are unable to reply to something they disagree with without taking personal pot-shots at the person they disagree with.

Regarding who can "ride", my experience is that 99% of people who insist they are race-ready are full of shit.

I say slow down on County roads through farm country, and city streets, and most of us probably do it anyway. But you've always got someone who thinks "this is silly, it could never happen to me" and they are the ones who get killed or badly hurt. Maybe not today, but sooner or later.

Not that we who roll off the throttle when MSF Scanning picks up a possible threat don't get wrecked sometimes, because we do. For all I know, the guy this post was originally about did everything right, and just hit the wrong lottery.

Which IS my point. If you are going to get killed, get killed despite doing everything right.

Just saying....

Well, maybe their point needs to have some shots taken at it if the shots were first fired. How can you tame that skill we have. You suppress it, you go backwards right? No x-games where you thought man had all the body tricks covered a human can think up and that is like saying close down the patent dept. It just does not slow down is sit down and relax.

Yes, I see your point you would like for others to think things out but guess what; We all come home all relaxed from a nice ton and change and how did that effect your life for a few feet no one is around. That is my point. Stand down, no one gets hurt. Oh look, open road and now do I just obey traffic and wait to get hit as this incident, or does a few seconds of none of your business I have to gas up now and pay some roadtax at the pump for those few seconds of a few feet that you do not do ALL the time, not even SOME of the time is MOST of the time and now who was safer sort of wonder now about your time is your time and anyone else has time on their side is what all of a sudden... Its your business?

Did you not see you crossed the line door slammer? Did you not turn left in front of say was that another door slammer? Oh, a truck driver now. My point is relax, no one is going to get hurt if speed is relative. Like how relative were the screamers when the Z1 came out screaming and oh WOW, say I CAN ride this and don't need the piss smell in the public BUS IShut UP!

"Which IS my point. If you are going to get killed, get killed despite doing everything right."

Thank you. Riding like a knob will get you killed a lot more, and being dead prohibits riding motorcycles, so be smart and skilled and play strategy like a game when it comes to being near intersections and cages. You will likely die less and ride more. I accept that I might die on the bike but fatalism is counterproductive.

FFS, we ride 'Ninjas' so being ninja-like in avoidance of the reaper should be a common value. Ninjas, not lemmings. Jedis maybe. Okay, imagine if a ninja and a jedi had a baby, be like that. K?

For the record, this forum is way, way less dramatic than some other MC forums I've seen. No problemo.

* Last updated by: tooncinator on 7/29/2011 @ 4:30 PM *

I watch MotoGP and MotoGP2 and WSB and AMA SB every time its on Speed or ESPN or whatever and I can get in front of the TV. Those guys have horrendous high sides and low sides all the time. The best riders in the world.

As a racer if you don't crash then you are not doing your job. You are supposed to ride the bike at at least 101% because you are always trying to go faster. I don't think it has anything to do with speed. Most of those guys have the skills and necessary reflexes for those speed. In moto gp most crashes are a result of bike settings and rider feedbacks. The rider who win is often the 1 who defies the law of physics the most. All of the great are known to push the issue whether it's sliding the rear or braking super late. Now , that's riding at 101%. As for myself I ride at 50%

FFS, we ride 'Ninjas' so being ninja-like in avoidance of the reaper should be a common value. Ninjas, not lemmings. Jedis maybe. Okay, imagine if a ninja and a jedi had a baby, be like that. K?

privateer; "I say slow down on County roads through farm country"
That's all I ride on! Why? Because 99% of the morons out there are on highways and interstates! Also the highways/interstates around here suck, unless you like traffic, potholes, and miles of 3" high expansion joints. I feel safer on a country road at triple digits, than the speed limit on a highway. I get your point, but after 40 years of riding, almost all my "incidents" have been on highways or in the city.

I don't disagree, alg8er. But my only accident has been self-induced on a mountain road (riding, as someone posted just above, at 101% when I had no business doing so), so I can't recount personal experience regarding city versus country accidents.

Well, I can. I ride in a city a lot. Never had a problem. But then, I do ride MSF-alert and MSF-scanning style so I move out of threat areas all the time. Sure, I've been cut off. Same when I'm driving my car. Its a fact of life.

How you ride, how fast or slow you ride, all determines what will happen to you except in the event chaos theory picks your number. Then all bets are off.

So maybe my first post which started this thread, the guy just got his number picked, and unless he had been idling along at 4 mph (like thats going to happen) he was going to be dead. Irregardless of if he knee-dragged the previous corner or not.

So Edge is right too, probably not much we can do to stop chaos theory. But for all the rest, like my 101% low side at 60mph on an uphill hairpin, or not paying attention and missing the car with blinkers on merging into your lane, or the folks riding on a main city street here several months ago who were in formation, and the lead bike missed the truck pulling out of an alley (he was blind until 5 feet of the truck was in the street) but the next bike was ignoring threats and counting on the lead bike to pick a safe path (i.e., daydreaming) and people died.

All of these types of accidents, we can prevent. Sometimes we can prevent them by going the speed limit. Sometimes we can prevent them by allowing enough reaction time or knowing where the evasion escape routes are.

And still, slowing down a little is going to help you avoid those kinds of accidents, *most* of the time. Not all of the time, but most.

Some will not agree. Heck I know people who still insist helmets don't save lives and prevent the creation of quadraplegics. Its never been the point it will do it 100% of the time, just that it will improve your chances.

And always, as there are people who have never worn a helmet after 50 years still going strong, and people who have smoked cigarettes all their lives and had no medical problems, and folks who push their motorcycles to 100% of capability all the time and so far had no problems, these are not results consistant with the demographic and statistical norms.

Its a great country, you can to a great extent make your own decisions about your own safety. This is my decision process, for my safety, and if you don't agree with it, I 100% respect your right not to agree, and do what you want to do.

* Last updated by: privateer on 7/30/2011 @ 7:39 AM *

Now who was saying we couldn't get along?

Its been an interesting read but from that last post I'm getting a warm fuzzy feeling for some reason. My motto has always been to ride within your abilities and enjoy the machine and that feeling you get when you twist the throttle. Pushing the envelope on occasion is good, as it increases the skill set, or can kill you just as fast but its why we ride these machines. I cannot imagine a life without riding a motorcycle whether it be the ZX14 or other. Having some of the best riding in the country doesn't hurt either. Fast or slow you decide. There is always going to be that pickup truck driver going to work with coffee in one hand and fumbling for the cell phone in the other that will potentially decide my fate or yours but that's the life we choose and personally I wouldn't change it for anything.

http://www.mbike.com/news/2011/07/study-lane-splitting-is-safe/

I'm for a stathe facts:

1. Remained upright both times.
2. I take nothing but evasive actions with that 14 is like BRING IT!
3. Bruised shoulder tagging the mirror...

... No one listens to turtle when I say I do not flow with traffic. I pass their ass like to wait to get rear ended? Damn straight I'll do what I want if that means safe riding in the end no matter how dangerous you think it is. We are not on the same level, pal! Deal wit hit!

I lane splitted all the time in California, Hub. It was a great way to insure I didn't get rear-ended.

Too bad thats one of the few States you can legally do it in.

Well, Priv, your last post where you summed it up you sounded more sensible, and it's not that I think we are so different in our thinking I just believe that there are people (many who've never rode a motorcycle) who just don't understand that to ride safe you have to fully believe that everyone out there is seriously trying to kill you 24/7 and ride accordingly. To have someone try telling me that makes me just wanna say " well duh". lol Now you mention MSF a lot and I have taken their classes, taught here by retired cops (who were shocked that I was doing them on a modified 94 Suzuki GSXR750! lol), but I have to say that while the techniques are invaluable learning tool for the beginner to novice rider, an experienced rider will find small cracks in their theory when applied to real world experience. But that's a whole different discussion. What I'm trying to say is, these people who think they want to demonize and hold sportbikes in contempt for aggressive riding don't know what it takes to stay alive when you're riding 24/7. Which is why in my opinion it seems a lot of the bad accidents tend to be weekend warrior types who just take their bike out when they get home from work and don't put time in sitting in traffic going to work and running errands and never get to that point of being tired and hot and still having to be 110% aware of what's going on because they're all still trying to kill you even on your way to Lowes for a package of screws. I am no ex-racer like HUB was so I do not try to fool people into thinking I can go faster than anyone else. When it comes to hustling a bike around a corner there are plenty of things I still need to learn/practice. But when it comes to handling a bike in the unpredictable environment of traffic, I feel I excel to a wickedness. I feel I have built up a sense for what is going to happen before it happens just from years of 110% attention to what is going on and trial and error (in my own mind). It is so bad that when I drive a car I get on peoples nerves because I am so irritated vocally about how predictable people drive. I take it very seriously because my life depends on it and I think only fellow sportbike riders can truely appreciate this fact. I have a mindset very much like Hub, which I find interesting since we come from very different backgrounds riding-wise. I think there is a time to turn it on and there is a time to sit back and take in the data. IMO you can't roll 110% without eventually making a mistake and that's where you take a few seconds for your mind to catch up then go again. But this is just how my brain performs. Everyone has a different set of skills and abilities they bring to the table and hence different riding styles. None of which should be criticized if it's truely working for that person. Which brings me back to the riding instructors. One way does not apply to all riders.

As for the pussy pics, keep 'em comin Tounces! :)

An average motorcycle, weighing about 550 lbs. is completely stopped when it is struck on the rear-end by an average car, weighing about 2500 lb., traveling at about 5 mph. In this described dynamic, the motorcycle will be accelerated forward to a speed of about 4 mph in about one-tenth of a second

Why do cagers tailgate motorcycles? I had to do 30 miles over the limit the other day to put a safe distance btw me and this guy. Then had to slow down because of traffic, the asshole kept trying to keep up and almost hit me when this car in front of me slowed down to make a right. The first time I used my brakes he must have been 100 yards behind me and it was at night!! I heard his tires didn t even look behind (been there before and my hip still sored) and twisted the throttle. I parked on the side of the road and thought he was gna stop, I was ready to push his nose back in his brain. Ironically, I don't think you re riding safe if you don't get tickets every now and then lool

* Last updated by: dragking on 8/1/2011 @ 8:43 AM *

Well you did the right thing. Pulling over or taking a detour is the best solution to a pesky cage you can't shake, however it is also the hardest thing to bring yourself to do. Especially hard is not letting it get to you once you resume your travel and applying that grief to the next asshole, because you know there will be one. The older I get the shorter my patience gets so it's a good thing I don't have a temper or I would be an asshole too.
Well I think we beat this issue to death...

But as for the lane splitting I'm not sure I'd like to block all my escape routes byt following another bike between cars. I think I'd rather be a bit prone while watching my mirrors like a hawk. Whenever I come to a stop I've gotten into the habit of cocking my bike a tad right before I come to a stop. It makes the cages around me take another look to figure out what the hell I'm doing while lining up a mirror with the traffic coming up behind me and an added bonus - I'm already pointed at my escape route.

I also never take my bike out of gear at a light unless I really need to adjust something. I see a lot of guys sitting trying to look cool with their hands on their hips or whatever and I just shake my head.

I take my hands off, because I need to stretch my bad back, neck, and shoulders every chance I get. I'm pretty sure I don't look very cool doing it, either. I don't need it in gear when traffic is crossing in front of me.

Edge, you mentioned you don't have much respect for MSF. I guess I never had such a high estimate of my abilities that I didn't actually learn something new each time I took one of the courses. I also don't see anything false or not useful in what they teach.

I refer to them a lot because I see hundreds of riders every week, and pay attention to what they do, and over half of them are unsafe at any speed. And I'm sorry but I don't think the readership of this forum is going to do much better if it was possible to evalute everyone. I'm not even sure I'd make the cut.

But then, I know I'm not the best, so I know I have to compensate by operating further below the 100% level.

OMG peace

Don't live in California now, but I learned to split lanes hard core in the bay area back in the 90's. Ever try to get across the bay bridge at 5 PM? I do it where I live now even though it's not legal. It's just me tho.. no other motorcyclists doing it here that I have found. I try and keep it safe.. I mean as safe as it can be done.. but still do it. Sometimes I get the devil in me tho... I could give a rats ass.. I don't ride a bike to sit in traffic. I split, and filter, and I wish all riders of bikes everywhere would just start doing it already. The more of us doing it the less strange it will seem to the cagers and the sooner it's just normal bike riding behavior.

The difference between splitting in California (I was mad splitting in the 1990s there too, between Monterey and San Francisco) and splitting where it is illegal, is simple.

I mean, besides you can get a moving violation for doing it in a State that prohibits two vehicles sharing the same lane.

The important difference (assuming $140 tickets aren't important for the moment) is outside of California, if you lane split, and the cage decides to roll forward with the wheels cocked, and clips you, it will be you who are cited for a very serious moving violation and collision.

At least in California we could get the door-opener and pinch-off jerks ticketed, so almost nobody ever cut bikes off when they split.

* Last updated by: privateer on 8/2/2011 @ 4:18 AM *

Edge, you mentioned you don't have much respect for MSF.

Not exactly what I said. I just meant that there is a lot more going on than they can really cover in a class and some of it has to come with experience. But some things just never made sense to me even though I kept performing it and watching it being done and still I don't get what the point is. One example which I happen to be thinking of is a turning technique where the instructor insists that performing a little turn before the turn will improve your track through a tight corner like turning 90 degrees at a stop light. It's a slow speed manuever where right before you would make you normal turn you do a little exaggerated turn in the opposite direction which ends up looking more like a "getto turn" and then quickly swinging the bars back into the turn. This is supposed to get the bike to run on the side of the tire making a tighter turn.
IMO it looks absolutely squidish and if your riding in a tight group I don't think that guy behind you is gonna appreciate that quick swing towards him and think your gonna hit him. Not to mention if you just stay on the opposite side of the turn in the first place you should have plenty of room to make a tight entry into a corner without all the dramatic swerving upsetting the bike and the drivers around you. Just seemed like overkill to me. Not to mention it pisses me off when people do it when I'm passing them in the left lane. I dunno, just my warped opinion. But it's stuff like that that makes me wonder why they waste their time instead of going over more relevant issues like traffic management or panic responses. Don't get me wrong, I have respect for anyone who finds it important to teach others how to ride better. It doesn't pay all that well and takes more patience than I will ever have! I was just never all that impressed with the level of training in this area. Geez, we gotta travel half way across the state to take most the classes!

I've got my own recipe where; I stand down for cars and bikes. I am stuck in the middle of traffic so why not practice line. The guy in the back thought he was going to have some fun with the new rider. I think he sniffed my pipe more or less; may have read the tag being way too close to me. All I did wasuckissim like I do everyone. It was 'your call' to go put on wheels and now call yourself some kind of driver? Guy was too scared once we started to let the front car get ahead so we could slam some slow corners. I looked in the mirror and he was not having any of it LOL, I think I spooked him once he thought he had something for me.

Hey, Kid! Go big screen, stick your hands out play follow the leader. Keep the bars in front of you; Start to move with the line, like look way out ahead for [nexturn] setup; now body english the turns. You adults go about your business. I've got the kid's attention so he's not some middle of the roader waiting to get hit. It's 100% concentration, kid; about your surroundings and that line of attack. Why be up some car's ass if I'm practicing with no place to go but be forced to ride slow.

I'm aware of the cars coming the other way. I am looking out ahead for the bike riders. I'm 'standing down' in the middle; so show me the odds I'm not safe with others. And now leave me alone, there is no one coming, here comes some cylinder wall pressure.

* Last updated by: Hub on 8/2/2011 @ 8:07 AM *

Edgecrusher wrote:

One example which I happen to be thinking of is a turning technique where the instructor insists that performing a little turn before the turn will improve your track through a tight corner like turning 90 degrees at a stop light. It's a slow speed manuever where right before you would make you normal turn you do a little exaggerated turn in the opposite direction which ends up looking more like a "getto turn" and then quickly swinging the bars back into the turn. This is supposed to get the bike to run on the side of the tire making a tighter turn.

Actually, I have found this to be true, but it may not work for you.

I ride a ton of miles with a mc, and then at COG events I go on day rides with groups ranging from 3 to 30 bikers. And with Legion Riders I ride with 4-100 riders. Not to mention Rolling Thunder and such with 1,000+ motorcycles.

I've found that we often have turns made from a full stop (light, stop sign, accordian shite) which are truly nasty on a big sportbike, like 140 degree tilted-T intersections (often with grade changes) where we turn onto a narrow County road. A little counter-steer right and then lean left and counter-steer left and she comes around for a left turn sweet as could be. These are turns you cannot accomplish above 10 mph without running onto the shoulder and into gravel or grass, at least, with a ZX14. The other guys don't do any better.

Maybe someone who is really accomplished (like in some of those videos) can do it if they don't have to stop. Heck, I could do it if I didn't have to come to a complete stop, but I'd still jig right first to turn left.

But this shouldn't surprise you, if you watch not only motorcycle roadracers but also automobile roadracers, they just do it in a smooth arc as they are braking and setting up. Not all the time, because not all corners require it.

So like I said, I find MSF teaches me stuff I might not use every day, but quite often I use it a lot. Like jigging before really tight or restricted (cones, stopped cross-traffic, all manner of daily road hazards and technicalities) turns.

If I look stupid doing it, then I've looked stupid for 30+ years doing it, and so be it.

* Last updated by: privateer on 8/2/2011 @ 8:31 AM *