Since the head cover is off, can I just put the plugs in now so I don't need to reach way down the hole? Can't see why not???

And what about plug gap? Anyone know what that is supposed to be? I know the plugs I have may be pregapped bu I have a gauge and I would like to check the, to be certain.

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Plugs are pre-gapped. You need to move the side electrode if you drop it say. Other than that, if you are done with the cams or specifically, the crank is done hand spinning, then yes, install the plugs @ 10 ft-lbs. Book says 12. Again, this is thread integrity chasing, instead of you cleaning up the hole with a thread chaser.

Take a rubber fuel line hose that straight and small enough to go over the spark plug body. Twist the plug into the hole with hose. I deal would be for the hose to be tight but release as soon as you fell coil thread bind. An extension and the socket have a lot more power, less feel. So, for the plug hole integrity, how deep you have to reach with the cover on and all that depth, you want to make that hose tool long enough for the top cover to be on. Unless you install plugs while you check shims, then that interval is used with the hose cut to that depth for hand spinning comfort.

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Gotcha, Hub. Thanks. So we don't need to change gap on a brand new spark plug to accomodate engine performance needs. Doesn't make any dif what engine the plug is put in, the plugs will produce optimum spark just as they come from the manufacturer.

I supppose the gap might be something to check if you clean the plugs some day or obviously if you drop them...or if you just have to know.....

I have those fancy two pronged plugs. NGK CR9EKPA Found a product description which lists the gap to be .32 in. which I checked with my Spark plug feeler. Seems to be right on.

I do like that plug thread-in feeler idea of yours. Same as the old spark plug boot and wire idea.

Thanks, Hub

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/24/2011 @ 10:53 AM *

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Right, same plug boot, same fuel line hose. Here is the gap deal. Remember, at that rpm speed, we are talking, 'time.' When we look at those 360° and that small window of initial fire? Watch the performance glitch with the gap. Well, maybe not a glitch, but more, exploit the time.

Think about this; If we widen the gap, it takes more time to jump the gap. That is a lot of time if we speed it up and see how much less fuel we had lit off? If we narrowed the gap, the spark would still send the spark at the same degree, but see how with the narrower gap, it jumped with less time? Then, we have fuel burning sooner with a narrower gap then we did with a wider gap.

Narrow = Top end.
Factory = All around performance.
Wide gap = Low end grunt.

See that gap tuning and the time you keep the wider, worn out plug longer in the bike?

* Last updated by: Hub on 10/24/2011 @ 11:51 AM *

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AAAAh-ha!

This reminds me a bit of the loose intake/tight exhaust clearance idea you had mentioned on that other thread. We're sorta fine tuning ignition timing without actual retarding/advancing "THE TIMING." I'm hooked but this will need to be next summer. I can't stand not riding her any longer. lol

I see how a faster spark would make more peak hp by burning more fuel.

Its not so clear why a slower spark burning less fuel would increase low end. Is it related to the explosion starting later, a wee bit past TDC instead of at TDC? Smaller explosion but it all happens at a point of increased leverage ??

* Last updated by: Rook on 10/24/2011 @ 12:12 PM *

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The plug is a mini advancer, correct. It's all about chemical reaction and how long you can keep the heat moving. Shorten the heat cycle... Low power = Grunt. Kind of like one big bang of the balloon. The top end is to expand that balloon so it is like a fuse that keeps burning so as to expand the air pressure. Like a boiling pan of water. Keep the flame burning, watch the boil. Snap the stove's gas off, watch the bubbles stop. That is your chemical power = Heat

* Last updated by: Hub on 10/24/2011 @ 12:40 PM *

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It's all about chemical reaction and how long you can keep the heat moving

Just like increased exhaust flow. very interesting. Something to fiddle with in the future, maybe. The adjustable timing wheel seems a lot easier to play with than plugs a/o valve clearances. Still interesting to consider how all three might come into play. I'm sure it would take a dyno to find out where and how much power was increased by plug gap or valve clearance alone. Thanks for info and ideas, gents!

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Would the ideal max peak hp plug gap be that which is as wide as possible? Just short of where the spark is unable to jump that wide of a gap?

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A weak spark is gonna cause a 'hesitated' combustion,if only for a microsecond

I have a stick of tnt. I light it with a weak spark. I have gas in a bowl all tight like the ratio is worse than tnt pound for pound. I'm going to light that with a weak spark. Where are you going with that abstract? That hez is a spark not grounding to center to side electrode. It is down more or off to the side of the porcelain over to the spark body. That is hez. No spar, ya missed the round.

We are talking millions of seconds from one gap to the next in perfect spark or weak spark. Even if you threw in the advancer to advance, you still have a tuning gap all over again.

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YOu are missing simple concepts and Rook nailed it. Shit down! Here we go again... This is not diagnostics why the pressure across the gap and all that crapiss and shit down!

Blue is going to turn red for us is... Justice in case you run out...

* Last updated by: Hub on 10/24/2011 @ 8:24 PM *

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bluetoe, yur stepping on the concept. Fuel burns at a constant. Look up BTU. Have you been reading my shit like bring some other constant number to fire the engine off. Bring now, this other fuel constant if they already established that the flame front is going to be flaming this much time, we set the spark at this degree.

bluezzzz, yer not following the constant. We are discussing ideal, in a perfect world, 14.7 is the constant. 17,500 BTU's is the constant of gas if we weighted a pound of it, that is the max energy output. The vacuum is the constant. The flame front with a time factor if the gap is larger or narrower, there is a TIME we are talking about, blueskis.

blue, nothing to do with a weak or hot spark. We begin at the light. It's lit, blue. Where the fucya been?

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Blue is going to turn red for us is... Justice in case you run out...

Nah...have better things to do than play 'as the world turns' on the internet

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 10/25/2011 @ 1:47 AM *

"Somebody, I said, somebody get me a blueberry sample! I can't feel my face!"

I don't have a clue as to what I'm saying....right?I ask a question....you dance around it and try to make your 'answers' some kind of mystery that the rest of us 'dumbasses' can't possibly fathom.It's no wonder other forums want to cut ya loose.You can't give a straight answer.

Blue, I'm a critical thinker. It says if we make 17,500 BTU's and that is a constant, show me more HP. If we stop boiling water with my old reflex and some youngun's reflex, we both turn the stove off; 3-2-1 GO! Do you see the gap in time? The water was still boiling. Someone had the faster shut off, same as a different gap = The heat kept going or shut off within millionths of a second.

That fire off? That was all she wrote. It is just like your cam timing. There is this gap. If you leave the exhaust closed longer, you let that heat or what is left of heat to diminish and all that. That is like saying, did you bring in more gas to make more power?

Again, you are going off into the tech part. The diagnostic part. I am discussing theory, not how to fix. I am discussing theory. Time is time is give me that shit about more air. I want to leave I hear a more air groupthink. They are not tuning FI. Get the time concept. Discuss the time in one degree of 360°'s. For all I know, it could be half a degree we are talking about.

You go to your yes and no websites. This is theory/concept/abstract/suck my dickstact!

* Last updated by: Hub on 10/25/2011 @ 1:46 AM *

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And then it hit me....'what the hell am I doing?'...and just like that....it was finished .Ride safe all.Keep rockin yer spaceships everyone!

What's that saying..."meth,not even once".

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 10/25/2011 @ 1:59 AM *

Blue, I am going to show you more power and you determine the HP change from lean/ideal/rich:

1. Lean ~ You know the old style injector idea was to lean out the cylinder by shutting off the gas. That was one jettronic idea in the early stages. Now you see the 18-22 fuel cut, not shut. Then the hard at 16.5 AFR. Look at my cup, blue. I have a shot glass or an ounce on the bottom of the glass cup. There is no sucking out of that cup. No pressure out of that cup. Blue, the top of the cup is 14.7 psi.

2. Ideal ~ This is abstract. I can do, say, play any game I want. I can say; I fill that glass up half with gas, I am at ideal ratio. I can say it another way; there is no pressure, no suck out the top of that cup. Blue, that cup is still at 14.7 psi, and that says constant.

3. Rich ~ I filled the liquid to the top. No suck, no blow, gotta go what number, blue? I do not give the answers but cut to the chase. If you have no clue about nabbing Ivan way back when... Remember? How far back on the curb was I? How many dumb motherfuckers did not figure out that shit?

And you want me to have respect for the more air idiots. The, I don't have a clue the a-N and you are going to tune in closed loop? Throw you for a loop? I've been throwing you for a loop, you brought Ivan to the floor. I gave that guy the constant. Everyone still buying the constant? Think anything has changed?

Read the shop manual. That is where I get my secret shit. A one sentence abstract says it all. And it's not in the book after that.

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First you tell me to do my thing, you'll do yours. Then you yell at me for doing me thing, not answering in the black and white but I sure did answer it my way. Shows you keep getting all upset, the answer is there and I don't care. It is that simple. Don't like it, wait for another answer you get a yes or no from.

Once I confuse you about your more air mentality and the ultimate question about that 760mmHg is the constant once the IAP takes a shit in this jettronic setting, you have a lot of explaining to do. And if you do not sign on the dotted line... YOu are on my shit list come discuss FI or engine theory, period!

Explain the concept. It's on the net. In a lot of pieces, it's on the net. And once you discuss some gas with more air in the N/A... Again, whatever comes out of your mouth does not walk the 760. The 1Atmo. The 1 amt. Do not blame me, blue. Do not get all huffy like a website thinktank groupthink.

There is only one right answer. And I'm sticking to the book's answer. Show me yours, now.

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Who's yelling?Not me.Or confused.You're the same person who bashed my post about the infamous valve cover leak.Turned it into something 'abstract'.....for what?Cause someone else besides you had a realistic and workable answer to somebody's problem?My answer cost 2.10 cents.Your answer cost however much for a new gasket,not including labor and the frustration of the 'mechanic' still not resolving the problem.So what....I don't care.Mine's not leaking...never did after I did it the way someone else suggested.That's the difference between you and I.I can listen to suggestions and go with it if it sounds plausible.I don't have to be right.But when I am,I am.Whether anyone else thinks so or not.Doesn't matter to me how much someone tries to shoot anything I say to pieces.I don't care.My gasket stopped leaking when I applied 'the fix'.Just using that as an example.I mentioned to Romes...order the qty of 2 and the bearing number.If he had...he'd not be waiting right now....and he wouldn't have ordered those other parts.Unless of course,he wanted those parts.It doesn't matter.Not to me anyway.I know what I know...and if I need to learn something...I know how to do that.Or ask.Or whatever.Being on someone's 'shitlist' doesn't bother me one teensy tiny bit.I've had plenty of kudos from people throughout my life to more than make up for the mosquito bites that happen.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 10/25/2011 @ 2:49 AM *

Blue, you are looking at dealer level. I don't washer a leak. The design says, 'when washer is needed, it becomes a home hackjob.' Load my threads for an oil leak or load my exhaust studs, I too have a washer leak idea. And that was not addressed to you personally. It says, you place that kick-me banner I have squid written all over me, then wear it over your back and wear it well. If that is not you, why worry?

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You of all people should know the theory going on, blue. You have to figure out why that cam sensor came on, it was the crank rotor. If you want to tune the bike, you have to understand, this is a different animal. Someone put so much electronic shit on the bike, you can't even see my camera spike. Now you come in with one spike maker after the other. Someone throws up a red flag about what? CAN jam your bike and now Huston we have a problem?

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"You of all people should know the theory going on, blue. You have to figure out why that cam sensor came on, it was the crank rotor".

Indeed...it WAS the rotor...guess who figured it it out?Not a mechanic,not a Kawasaki tech.Lil ol' dumbazz me.I threw out enough info here for anyone with a working knowledge of ignition timing and symptoms to at least give some educated guesses.The only suggestion I got...was...check the wiring harness and follow the lead on back to the ECU.I'm not criticizing anyone for not knowing.My case was different,and not something IN THE MANUAL.Which I explained.Telling me the sensor was bad....that was not correct.No matter how you slice it...it was not the problem.The sensor was doing what it's supposed to do.Tell me my timing's off.It did that.No one here could see that?I'll admit,as I did then,I didn't get it either.It didn't take an Einstein in ignition theory to find it.Just common sense applied to the right place.That's all...no theory,no abstract..no twisting of facts.

Adding washers to a bolt is not what I would classify as a hack job.It aint in the book cause they WANT you to buy a new gasket and pay someone to install it.Besides,you think Kawi's gonna print something that's gonna shoot themselves in the foot?They know the thing leaked.It just wasn't a 'recallable' issue.

If you're going by 'theory'(yours)...then by all rights...my washer deal should still be seeping.What's that tell ya?I don't need someone to tell me where the bear shit in the buckwheat.2+2 is STILL four.

You insinuate that washering a bolt is some sort of 'substandard',redneck way to 'try' and fix something.I would suggest...if ya wanna see hack jobs....take a pic of YOUR bike and post er up.Some of us are just smart enough to leave things alone.What kind of rider/owner REMOVES a rear brake and says 'aw...you don't need it....all you'll do is stab yerself into a crash'.'Of all people'(as you say)....learning how to operate something on your bike ought to be a given...not something to avoid and tell others...'using that brake is gonna get ya killed' or whatever...and then trying to characterize everyone who is learning to safely use the back brake as some sort of jerk,okay...that's how you roll.Maybe 'no brake' works well on a flat track...we aint ridin our bikes on a flat track.Go to the manual...since you're so fond of saying nobody here does that...and find me what page the "removing the rear brake for safety reasons' is.If you can't do something,you shouldn't be mocking others who can.Walk the walk..isn't that what you say?

To all you guys who've installed a PC whatever...when(if) you have a poor ground....make sure you look thoroughly through the manual and find where it tells ya to "remove ground bolt and file the factory paint off to secure a working ground"...Can't find it?According to some here...filing that ground and fixing your connection problem is...ahem...a 'hack job'.And I think like 'the dealer'.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 10/25/2011 @ 11:51 AM *

Spark Plug Electrode Magic
Spark plug manufacturers tout the advantages of their unique electrode designs, but regardless of the design, the purpose is to make it as easy as possible for the plug to fire reliably. A spark jumps more easily from a sharp edge than a rounded blunt edge. So the more sharp edges it has to jump to, the better the odds of the plug firing under all types of driving conditions. The electrodes on SOME spark plugs are also designed to "unshroud" the spark so MORE of the SPARK will be EXPOSED to the air/fuel mixture. THIS IMPROVES the PROPAGATION of the FLAME KERNAL once the fire is lit...FACT...not 'abstract'

One thing to keep in mind with respect to performance claims is that no spark plug creates horsepower out of thin air. A special electrode configuration can reduce misfiring and the voltage needed to fire the plugs. But the spark only ignites what is already in the combustion chamber. If there are any power gains to be had, they will be the result of reduced misfires and nothing else.

Always check that the spark plug gap is compatible with the engine manufacturers specification. A gap that is too small means that the spark duration will be very quick and the spark will be THIN and WEAK.

THIS is the finding of the experts.....not theory.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 10/25/2011 @ 3:27 PM *

My case was different,and not something IN THE MANUAL.Which I explained.Telling me the sensor was bad....that was not correct.No matter how you slice it...it was not the problem.The sensor was doing what it's supposed to do.Tell me my timing's off.It did that.No one here could see that?I'll admit,as I did then,I didn't get it either.It didn't take an Einstein in ignition theory to find it.Just common sense applied to the right place.That's all...no theory,no abstract..no twisting of facts.

Hey pal, I got your no one listens to turtle theory. It sure was not me telling you to buy a sensor. You made that move. I told you to look in the book and measure that sensor. I told you it was a phantomove and now I know a little more of the 3-V connection. Someway, somehow, there is a 3 way connection between groups of parts.

You don't see what I'm looking for. YOu guessed at that sensor, and I told you right out of the book how to look more professional. I threw that turtleshit at you and nothing stuck. Teflon talk I'm blowing smoke alright.

Adding washers to a bolt is not what I would classify as a hack job.It aint in the book cause they WANT you to buy a new gasket and pay someone to install it.Besides,you think Kawi's gonna print something that's gonna shoot themselves in the foot?They know the thing leaked.It just wasn't a 'recallable' issue.

Again, do not throw me in the same camp with the hackers. I am OEM when it comes to repair. I go by the book or do not touch my toy.

Bolt thread tweaking on a hard surface, with loss of memory to the rubber part screams over tight, just not right... In my OEM book. I will call you on it. I will explain it. I will sit back and have mother K all not involved with your field fix is not really what we call a field fix in the industry. My mickey mouse shit works too. But I have not an extra part that was not designed on that particular area... We get the meaning of a professional approach and a meguyveer approach?

If you're going by 'theory'(yours)...then by all rights...my washer deal should still be seeping.What's that tell ya?I don't need someone to tell me where the bear shit in the buckwheat.2+2 is STILL four.

Very simple. We both have a leak. A customer comes up to both bikes, wants to trust someone with their bike... Choose your mechanic that can repair both leaks equally. How would you like your bike pee scented back to you? The one with (your) 'theory' or the one that looked like the same bike he rode in with, will ride out the same. And not an ounce difference, say.

You insinuate that washering a bolt is some sort of 'substandard',redneck way to 'try' and fix something.I would suggest...if ya wanna see hack jobs....take a pic of YOUR bike and post er up.Some of us are just smart enough to leave things alone.What kind of rider/owner REMOVES a rear brake and says 'aw...you don't need it....all you'll do is stab yerself into a crash'.

Come look at the bike. There is not a mod made on the bike. I make brackets and use the thread holes used for other parts of the bike I took off. No drilling, welding, nada! The back brake was a goof. The muffler bearing was a goof. The dildo is a goofy toofy fairy. I'm bored!

'Of all people'(as you say)....learning how to operate something on your bike ought to be a given... and find me what page the "removing the rear brake for safety reasons' is.If you can't do something,you shouldn't be mocking others who can.Walk the walk..isn't that what you say?

Worse thing you can do is promote the back brake. You talk like a gov stat. You have no clue how well the human can adapt to no rear brake and be safe on the world's fast test. Come get some lessons. You see anyone else pull brakes off their bikes? You see me lack confidence? Put a camera on me, fella. Put me in a situation like I haven't been in a few and never stabbed the back? Scary! Then again, tough shit on you. I'm not saying pull yours. I'm saying... "Don't fucking tell me how to brake on a bike." If you are not matching my steps.... Shit the fuck down... Trollllllllllllllll!

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"Bolt thread tweaking on a hard surface, with loss of memory to the rubber part screams over tight, just not right... In my OEM book. I will call you on it. I will explain it. I will sit back and have mother K all not involved with your field fix is not really what we call a field fix in the industry. My mickey mouse shit works too. But I have not an extra part that was not designed on that particular area... We get the meaning of a professional approach and a meguyveer approach?"

Bolt thread tweaking on a hard surface does NOT occur by increasing the effective amount of threads.That's what the washer does...c'mon,you know that.The bolt NEVER hits bottom.That's the whole point of the washer...to keep it from bottoming.It aint a 'hack job"...it's an owner fix that works.You're trying to make something dramatic out of it"it's not OEM".So?So what.How many guys are using NON-OEM tires,or chains,or whatever...different plugs.You're saying that anything 'non oem' is somehow 'less' than quality or whatever.Anyone here using NON-Kawasaki silicone sealant on ANY part?I am.Not having any problem with any of it yet.

I'm not interested in "What WE call a field fix in the industry"....Who is "we" anyway?.You're implying that "we" is somehow above the rest of "us" down here below in the land of ignorance.I could care LESS about someone's opinion of how I do things...on MY motorcycle.And BTW...in 5+ years of ownership,and PLENTY of parts removals and installs...I've NEVER come up with ANY extra bolts,parts...anything.My manual is full of dogears and placemarks and fingerprints.You think I haven't read and followed my manual on virtually every area of owner's work that could be done on this bike?

Some of us here just post up the bottom line about something.Others go through extreme lengths to explain the same thing.I don't care.Explain away.The fact is...ordering TWO QTY of that bearing number is gonna get Romes TWO bearings at 23 something each.Period.If they come with the races...fine.The point being....if he orders 1...he's not going to get a 'set' of bearings..as you argued with me.Silly really.And the point of THAT is...they DO NOT COME IN A SET...that was the whole start of this whole confused struggle.Sometimes....trying to help is almost not worth it.If you REALLY wanted to make peace about this thing...you'd acknowledge(at least to yourself) that my explanation was indeed correct.If only to yourself.I know what that parts fiche is saying when they show quantities in the box like that.Regardless of the diagram showing 'races'...that's gonna come with the bearing.So that part isn't even really an issue...as it was made to be...and for what?So I could be made to look like I don't know anything about parts ordering or installation procedures?And WHY would you want to do that?That's what I'm getting at...the bottom line.Why WOULD you want to make me look like a don't know what I'm doing?That my 'advice' is not reliable or useful?

My arguing in that post wasn't about "let's make Hub look stupid"....it was about..."Hey guys,I have a problem here...etc,etc".That's where I'm at with this whole forum thing.Not 'see how stupid he is...let's see how far I can confuse him or whatever'....

Now THAT's straight open talk.As always from me.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 10/26/2011 @ 1:37 PM *