I think you folks are worrying way too much about this break in thing. It's just not that critical IMHO with modern construction and machining techniques. Go out and ride your motorcycle during breakin, don't redline it for the first couple hundred miles and don't lug it. I actually followed KHI's breakin procedure fairly closely with a few blasts of throttle thrown in there and no worse for wear. A lot of other on the old site did the same and none of them seem to be burning oil or down on power. This breakin thing is starting to sound like the oil threads, never ending controversy..... controversy because no one can prove conclusively one way or the other which is superior. Don't worry, be happy and go ride your motorcycle.

That is all,

Kruz

I wonder with the very fine/close specs of machining now a days, and for a little while anyways, if pretty much all bikes/cars are going to break in ok, except for the very rare motor, the exception to the rule?

I was very gentle with my 109 and followed the book exactly.

On the 14, by the time it had 20 miles on it, I was red lining. Custom dyno tune at 100 miles, which ended up with about an hour, on and off, of runs. I have near 8K now, which is not much mileage, so I suppose I have a ways to go before I will be able to tell if the break-in made any difference. On the newly machined engines, the specs are so close to already being broken in when they are made, seems to me just a short time/miles and they outta be fully cooked and ready to go. But my sense of common sense has been wrong before.

* Last updated by: JDC on 4/14/2009 @ 7:54 AM *

Makes me wonder if I should have broken mine in a tad bit harder, all the bikes I have broken in I have kept under 6500rpm for first 300 miles then oil change and unleash it. But maybe that is a good median, harder than factory recommendation but not balls to the wall. Now I do wish i would have changed the oil sooner.

It would be great to see if there were any emperical studies done on this sorta thing.

* Last updated by: JDC on 4/14/2009 @ 5:31 PM *

This has been a thought provoking thread, thanks to you guys for expressing viewpoints that cover a huge amount of ground. I wanted to share my experience as well.

- my "stealer" recommended i keep below 8,000 rpm for the first 500 miles, ride around town etc., then whatever
- I live out of town and love driving this bike on the highway but was gentle (mostly under 4,000 rpm) for the first 400 miles
- the warm idle speed changed dramatically on me through the first 125 miles, then not so much
- after reading this thread and having 600 miles on the bike (I did the first service stuff at 500 miles, w/synthetic) I took the bike out and ran it to redline in a series of 10 runs through 2,3,4 and a once in 5th gear (at least over 9k or 10k rpm, wasn't watching rpms at that point).

- WOW, WOW, WOW

- it was different than my 1993 YZF1000. Did I mention WOW!

Based on my read, I got most of the wear out of the way gently. Good idea to run the bike hard and make sure things seat well before there's no more wear+settling in. I'd do the first service at 125 miles next time and then run the bike hard.

Did i mention WOW!

* Last updated by: iceman99 on 4/14/2009 @ 11:38 AM *

Well here's my take on this, if KHI was recommending a gentle breakin and most likely 90% of all owners will folow the book and they had a bunch of engines coming back in with high oil consumption, excessive ring blow-by, high cylinder head temps etc. you'd think they would ammend the manual and tell us to ride it like we stole it. Same thing with synthetic at break in, this article says DON'T DO IT but most of the worlds high performance sport cars manufacturers' now use synthetics as factory fill. That includes Porsche, Bugatti and Corvette ZO6. I think we're not giving the factory engineers enough credit here. The last thing they want is a bunch of burned up motors and pissed off customers on their hands, not good for job security. Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe these guys at the factory are that clueless.

Kruz

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Tautology+(logic)

That is why I laugh when a moderator tells me he is going to edit my tech is I only chase tech questions more than any other subject. Each step is a sentence so the steps ring true is try to tell the engineers they are wrong more or less is wondering who are the clueless.

I hate bringing up my racing experience is just dog the empirical and deal with these assholes..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_priori_(philosophy0

I cannot tell you how many new/fresh bikes I cycled thrunder my ass. I would walk my bike up to the line so the hours were off the parts. I saw a video of me diving under a whole group of other riders and they were in the same class is ask yourself if I should have used their bikes to win my metals. They had just the same amount of time whipping that throttle warming the thing up to temp. I laughed about those days and why they showed up is how their break-in when was just like mine?

* Last updated by: Hub on 4/14/2009 @ 2:19 PM *

Break IN is not for the bike,its for the poor dumb bastard who gets on her,grabs a hand full of throttle without realizing just what he is sitting on

I laughed about those days and why they showed up is how their break-in when was just like mine?

Hub, so exactly how did you break your bike in ? Did you follow the book or do you have a method that you prefer ?

I rode my 14 of the floor at the dealer. Allowed it to warm up, got gas and drove home. Did not rev the piss out of the bike but loaded it as hard as I could. 51 miles to home, with two cool off periods, pulled in and drained the oil in a clean pan. Looked like a 70 metal flake paint job. I could not believe the sparkles. Went out the next day a and loaded again. Not excessive rpm, just heavy load. Changed the oil and filer again at 150 miles. Allot less sparkle. Dumped again at 500. Nice and clean.

I rode my 14 of the floor at the dealer. Allowed it to warm up, got gas and drove home. Did not rev the piss out of the bike but loaded it as hard as I could. 51 miles to home, with two cool off periods, pulled in and drained the oil in a clean pan. Looked like a 70 metal flake paint job. I could not believe the sparkles. Went out the next day a and loaded again. Not excessive rpm, just heavy load. Changed the oil and filer again at 150 miles. Allot less sparkle. Dumped again at 500. Nice and clean.

Last race bike was a H-D. Told the guy not to prep it being it was going to be raced. I set number plates on it; wired the oil related parts; made a quick ride: sneaking out one night thru some canyon with number plates on; lights working. Next day, I shook it down at Willow at some club race. I was headed for the last two final Nationals with that bike and then quit racing. Still have the H-D.

All I did was lift the cylinders up to see if I scored the skirts. I removed the (accelerator) pumpers so I wouldn't be too rich with a hot engine kind of thinking. Plugs were perfect; the Championship spark plug guy would look at me asking like why both coming if I saw that gray bottom with my Champion Reader flashlight. I knew that bike was running strong being in the front row. I lead my last race at the start with it and came in second knowing I was going to retire that day. No one knew but me. So I wanted more to walk away than throw it away for 1st place and win my one and only National. I held off, I know; my fault and no one else is. I more or less stood on a phantom national podium twice for both races. Didn't care then is don't really care now. Just bring it up for empirical reasons about 16 total years of racing semi-pro and 7 years racing the local Nationals.

So, [when I laugh and say] how they broke-in their bike is if only I could jump on theirs and find out how well theirs ran against mine. Maybe an Ivan tune is faster. Ain't gonna help if you catch my drift. I guess the throttle makes up for the tune? I won a few championships is name that tune.

Is it the bike break-in, or is it the rider? That is more the question is if that engine does not smoke a lick = Who you gonna blame now for 2% to 10% gain? Say we both leak down a book broken-in bike and WOThat other bike. What happens if both read a leak down of 1% leak? At 10% gain, mine leaks under 1% by 10% and we still have the ring gap as a leak is what a leaky theory.
I know nothing will help a break in if you cannot WOT it from the moment it starts if you want to etch a dry run metal on metal. Like no, it will not work is it will really smoke now! Like Kruz said, it is a phenom and once that is assembled correctly and the parts are as perfect as they come from the process, piston sealing has happened on the first kick or it would not start.

As far as blow-down on the ring grooves. Was that race gas used for those break in miles? He is comparing your pump to his race dome colors?

I don't think the break in makes that much diff. My bike doesn't use any oil and runs great and it was broke fairly easy with no extra oil changes. You can pile the theories to the sky but it can't really be that much. I use Actevo oil not the expensive synthetics. I think its all overrated. It's in the design and construction of the bike.

My understanding is that surface finishes and tolerances makes a big difference on how you do your breakin. Supposedly crosshatch angle on the final cylinder hone makes a big difference. The idea is to allow the mating parts to knock off the rough edges and mate to each other without galling. In the case of the cylinder bore it is too knock the sharp edges off the hone pattern on the cylinder wall without glazing the barrel(filling in the low spots where oil is trapped).

I work for an aircraft engine manufacturer. Our cylinders must be broken in very hard because of the material, nitrided steel. Our cylinders are air cooled and in order to get reasonable service life they must be hard, hard, hard. That is where the nitrided surface treatment comes in and why our breakin must be very agressive. If we don't run em in hard, there is not enough pressure exerted by the piston rings against the cylinder wall and glaze forms. Our engineers are not stupid and they specify the exact break in conditions so that our cylinders perform to their design limits out in the field. We run the engines in on a test cell under a dummy propeller load and breakin is complete when there is a rapid drop in cylinder head temperature, this takes about 30 minutes on average. Liquid cooled engines operate in a much narrower temperature range, the materials are not near as hard and the surface finishes and tolerances are much tighter so break in occurs much more rapidly with less gas pressure loading the ring. That's why I say the engineers have this all figured out and if you follow their recommendations, your engine will perform well and last a long time. I am not saying that KHI has specified the optimal breakin for maximum performance. Unlike with aircraft engines, their legal department would probalby get involved if they told you to use WOT on a 200 hp engine right out of the box but it's good enough that there will be very little noticeable difference.

Kruz

Once the engine is moving in a sustained rate, your pressure is off. You want hard break-in, you WOT the throttle so the max air happens the quickest. That would have to be at every key cycle at WOT. You run up a linear on the street is roll up to it. Your throttle plate never remains at WOT on the street. You have to lift on the throttle or rev over limit.

The ambient, the temp of the fuel, the puddle one cylinder does not capture the full fuel to air amount as a shorter runner from the carb say. How come that cylinder with less pressure seemed to seal and at a 2% leak from one slow low break-in to the 30minute sustained high rpm break-in still shows 2% leak if not match the slower break in cylinder is running as even as a perfect circle gets is show me the blowbuy and I'll buy the drinks - 2% leak my bike is fly my plane.

Motoman wrote:

There's a very small window of opportunity to get the rings to seal really well ... the first 20 miles !!

If that's the case then the manufacturers are most likely performing most of the breakin when they do the first dyno run of the engine. When we get the bike it's for all intents and purposes pre-broken in and all we're doing is finishing off the job. This would explain why those who run their engine in hard and those who follow the manufacturer's instructions seem to get fairly similar results. Also would explain why most of the high performance car manufacturers are using Mobil 1 or other synthetics as factory fill. They do their breakin on a chassis dyno before they ever deliver the car to the dealer. It's already a done deal when they turn loose of it. This makes more sense to me than any explanation I have heard so far and seems to line up with the real world results. Now if you are building your own engine and cannot control tolerances and finishes like most amatuer racing engine builders then Motoman's breakin technique would seem to have more validity.

I'm beginning to lean towards the fact that manufacturers don't make a big deal out of breakin anymore because it's not a big deal anymore.

This kinda goes along with the "conventional wisdom" never corner or brake hard on a new tire for at least 100 miles. The first time I changed a tire I was scared to death, thought I was rolling on greased marbles from all the bunk stories going around out there. Back in the old days this may have been true when manufacturers left slick mold release compound on their tires but I think they've come along way in the last 100 years. Last week I burned the chicken strips off my new Dunlop Qualifier in the first ten miles.

Kruz

I had American made rings, American made pistons in a race bike with a larger bore. Where was the manufacturer to break in my rings for my race bike? 6-Hour endurance race and I don't think we added oil. We lead for 2 hours of it, came in 3rd O/L and beats me if I sent the engine back what they did with it. I was sponsored and that engine was taken care of for me. I just jetted it and timed it. This is going back exactly 30 years to date. No nicisil bore finish back then.

"Backyard Bottle Brush Boring" was the ticket to finishes and they did not smoke either.

Bottom line for me is that [upper ring] metal gets so wrinkle warped out that to me, it just conforms to the wall and the high spots eventually are removed like how many times until that ring goes wider and wider at the gap. We still have an oil tight seal until the tolerance goes out. I ran large skirt clearances and that rocks the ring more than normal when cold. Where is my cold start/hot running blow by?

Hub is there anyway we could get Ivan and his TRE involved in this discussion?

Kruz

* Last updated by: Kruz on 4/17/2009 @ 7:22 AM *

Hub is there anyway we could get Ivan and his TRE involved in this discussion?

I just sent an email to the email address on his website inviting Ivan to participate. If anyone else speaks with him, you might make him aware of the forum. -bg

This is Rom's Read as in, "Rings vs. WOT." Ask for his permission on his thread. If it were my thread, you could go there and jack-it, it would not bother me; I kind of like the flavor of it. But to respect to Roman's wish is, open a tre thread in general and see if we can get Ivan to sign up. Sign up; so I can wrinkle his nuts a little. Ball busting him as the pages slam down on his testicle test rides is he spends too much dyno time and not enough riding time is assfacter the wire.

Which end of the wire do you want to start at, Kruz?

Response back from Steven (UK) to email to inquiries@sgmotorsport.com inviting Ivan to forum: "You'll need to phone him...".

Unfortunately, I don't have time. -bg

the hubmeister wrote:

Sign up; so I can wrinkle his nuts a little. Ball busting him as the pages slam down on his testicle test rides is he spends too much dyno time and not enough riding time is assfacter the wire.

Which end of the wire do you want to start at, Kruz?

I was just kidding about Ivan, I just wanted to add a little levity and maybe jerk Hub's chain a bit!

Kruz

Hub on the old forum, I read all or almost all of the threads on TRE. You and Ivan had some fairly heated debates on what the TRE was really doing. How did it go ...the hack ....safe mode.... just a resistor....page # ? in the code book .... If I remember correctly, some nasty words were exchanged. I did send Ivan a link awhile back but no response.

Rom,

Come one, "nasty words were exchanged?" This is a bike. There was not any nasty thing I remember. Never told Ivan to go and dil one of his orifices. I keep telling you, I do not have any animosity against the guy. We were discussing the OTTO-cycle and fuel injection.

What I brought up was the 5th gear deal. If the shop manual way back in 1999 said it was 6th and no one caught him on the book dispute, is all I brought up. Besides, Ivan schooled me is schooled him. WATTs the beef?

You cock suckers were laughing as much as I was.