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Thread: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...

Created on: 12/21/15 03:28 AM

Replies: 56

Hub


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/26/15 8:37 AM

Hub guys don't care about the inner workings of the ECU they just Demand results.

SOME guys need some inner working theory to diagnose or you'll waste time removing or taping up windows. Same theory as with Grn's cam sensor showing it was a good known unit.

So blow my theory, what exactly did you do to one ECU that removed the shutter and the other not. I'll take a guess and it was not taped, modded physically, but on the software side. So what did you discover?



Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

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Grn14


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Location: Montana

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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/26/15 11:11 AM

I wonder if this stutter is actually the KTRC sensing wheel slip?Not a gearing change.None of mine stuttered with a gear change...but it did stutter on hard takeoffs once in a while.What about turning the KTRC off?At least you would know(wouldn't you?)if it was timing related.I might be like totally missing the thread contents here?

Didn't someone say here somewhere that shortening the gearing caused some stutter,but making it taller stopped the stutter?


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/26/2015 @ 11:12 AM *

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seno


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Location: Lithia, Florida

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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/27/15 5:28 PM

Which ECU tune is a very personal choice..... It depends what you want to get out of it really and what your going to do with your bike. My personal choice is Ivan's tune and that is based on using his products that have worked for me since 1986 literally not to mention he is only an hour away and focuses on ride-ability & performance.
You have to be careful who you hand your ECU to that they don't C-brick it with the woolrich software, and will make good if they do. If you have a tight budget check out Schnitz... $75 is a bargain for a "generic" flash that addresses the basics but no fueling. I have tried a couple of flashes and can tell you for sure ECUnleashed is shit.... I wouldn't take it if it were free.

That stutter is a bitch BTW..... I have spent a ton of time & money trying to find it.... The easy fix is a TRE but you lose the indicator



2015 30th Anniversary Edition 14R #250-> Brock's CT Ceramic Coated, Ivan's ECU Flash V2 & Map, Block off plates, HM Strain gauge quickshifter, GPR Damper, Spiegler lines, Muzzy's Sliders, Pazzo levers, Rizoma Next Fluid Tanks, DDM Ultra 5500K HID's Low & Hi, DB Windscreen, Cox Radiator guard, gold titanium bolts... too many to list at this point

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/27/15 8:49 PM

Which ECU tune is a very personal choice..... It depends what you want to get out of it really and what your going to do with your bike. My personal choice is Ivan's tune and that is based on using his products that have worked for me since 1986 literally not to mention he is only an hour away and focuses on ride-ability & performance.

I like working with Ivan too. Mostly because he tells it like it is. No Bull Shit has value. To me any way.

SOME guys need some inner working theory to diagnose or you'll waste time removing or taping up windows.

Who needs it ? We have enough hypothetical ECU BS Floating around now with Zero real facts being shown to the public backing what's in a Flash. I've said this before, What's being done to "your" ECU is still and will always be kept from you,,, UGH ! It's wrong. So we move forward.

But, what If I can say to the guys that have the gearing stutter issues "Do This" and it works 100% of the time ? The guys in trouble(Like Me) will be all over it. Especially if it works without affecting the rest of the bikes systems. No TRE or any other electronic Gizmos Needed.

what exactly did you do to one ECU that removed the shutter and the other not.

Hub until I prove the fix a second time I'm saying Nothing. What I have learned from the past is Helping all who are in need is a Difficult Study. This time I'm Not leading with my chin. As you may remember Didn't work so well for me last time. For now it's just a story.

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Blown3UR



Joined: 05/14/15

Posts: 26

RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/28/15 1:12 AM

Haha you guys just made my decision a much harder task... I was (still sort of am) leaning towards CBlast especially with the complete package of Quick Shifter and Launch control incorporated into the tune. I have QS on the BMW and think it is one of the top 3 technological advancements in motorcycling (after ABS and TC which enable an average Joe like my self to ride an animal like the 14 looking professional and keeping it safe haha).

I am kind of lost on here now that most people recommend Ivan's tune in addition to the PCV Daisy Changed to a 300 Screen, and Autotune (finally got it :) - Thank you). It just seems like it needs time which I don't have much of and significantly more $$ which I wasn't prepared for.

No one with anything on the CBlast tune?

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Romans


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/28/15 8:07 AM

Haha you guys just made my decision a much harder task

This has always been the issue with Flash Talk due to the surrounding mysticism of what you're really getting inside for your Money. Should not be, but here we are.

No one with anything on the CBlast tune?

Two years Of reading all right here on this Forum. Read until it hurts Lol. Search Bar, click.

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seno


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Location: Lithia, Florida

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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/29/15 10:26 AM

No offense intended but after reading the threat here:
I have no clue why anyone would give this guy money.... a few bricked ECU's and shenanigans....
http://zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=4EE8EE81-1372-66AE-3B7C270C990E061B&page=7

Romans is a stand up guy and know that he bricked some dudes ECU BUT reached into his pocket and replaced it, you can argue with that..... There are so many reputable people who want your money and will give you support down the road. Why would you consider giving it to a dude who disappears for months when he gets called out after people start speaking out with bad results, no service, excuses and threats about keeping the issues quiet....



2015 30th Anniversary Edition 14R #250-> Brock's CT Ceramic Coated, Ivan's ECU Flash V2 & Map, Block off plates, HM Strain gauge quickshifter, GPR Damper, Spiegler lines, Muzzy's Sliders, Pazzo levers, Rizoma Next Fluid Tanks, DDM Ultra 5500K HID's Low & Hi, DB Windscreen, Cox Radiator guard, gold titanium bolts... too many to list at this point

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Grn14


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/29/15 2:52 PM

From what I understand,the truly quality flashes include gear/ignition/fueling/rpms and all that kind of thing.Under load conditions...a/f.Very similar to a powercommander would allow(except for the ignition adjustments)with individual cell mapping and cylinder mapping.I don't think too many flash guys go this far in.For whatever reason.Simply opening secondaries sooner or whatever isn't really 'tuning' the bike.

I think we all know that doing these 'external' changes don't actually fall into the 'tuning' portion..which is the MOST important thing...IMO.It isn't so much about 'fueling' alone.There's timing and such as well at any given parameter the motor faces.Each cylinder.That means a lot more effort and equipment to test it by.Doesn't it?Unlocking the motor's potential is WAY more intense than a simple rev limit raise or secondary opening time.Probably an obvious comment,but I'm slow like that;)


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/29/2015 @ 2:57 PM *

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VicThing


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/29/15 3:32 PM

From what I understand,the truly quality flashes include gear/ignition/fueling/rpms and all that kind of thing.Under load conditions...a/f.Very similar to a powercommander would allow(except for the ignition adjustments)with individual cell mapping and cylinder mapping.I don't think too many flash guys go this far in.For whatever reason.Simply opening secondaries sooner or whatever isn't really 'tuning' the bike.

I think we all know that doing these 'external' changes don't actually fall into the 'tuning' portion..which is the MOST important thing...IMO.It isn't so much about 'fueling' alone.There's timing and such as well at any given parameter the motor faces.Each cylinder.That means a lot more effort and equipment to test it by.Doesn't it?Unlocking the motor's potential is WAY more intense than a simple rev limit raise or secondary opening time.Probably an obvious comment,but I'm slow like that;)

There's four things we have to look at. First, what is the proof this being done? Second, what is the proof it's of consequence? Third, what is the proof it's of some benefit? Fourth, what is the proof that whoever is claiming having done their tuning to this extent has done so in the one, definitive, correct way to maximize the benefit?

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Romans


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/29/15 6:28 PM

Romans is a stand up guy and know that he bricked some dudes ECU BUT reached into his pocket and replaced it, you can argue with that.....

Yes Sir, Seno posts the truth.

I most definitely did destroy two ECU's. One from a Gen 1 ZX14 the other from a Gen2 ZX14R. Both were California ECU's.

Now as most of you know I only charge 250 Dollars to Flash a ECU. For me to recoup my losses took me a Extremely long time. Reason for this was ,,,,, I posted the Truth. I told everyone who reads here what I had happened. Hid Nothing.

From here some took this as a opportunity to go on the attack, discredit, insult me, you name it. The stories of "How" I Bricked these ECU's were absolutely preposterous. Even though Justin Woolich made a post explaining what happened with "His" software it made no difference to the reader as trust has been lost. The damage to me personally was done. Life.

Some have questioned me as to why I didn't try keep the Bricking quiet. Asked me if it was a Good idea to tell all. My answer will always be the same. "I Don't Play That Way" no secrets. I always tell everyone the truth. No matter the cost. My honor is Not For sale. Let face it, Any and ALL customers Deserve No Less.

The Story

When the Flashing software became available I was in with both feet "First" ! There Was No One Else at the time. Any and all bugs in the software began to show up almost immediately. I worked with the software developer directly pointing out all that I had learned while using his New software.

Sadly if you were a customer with a California ECU and It landed on my table I blew it up. From here the fixing of Software was the Goal for Woolich Racing. My own Goal was trying to figure How fast I could buy a Brand New ECU, get it back in my possession from the dealer, make a copy of the bin file, send it in for a woolich Bin File Build and after all that, go ahead and run the Risk of Flashing it Again while praying the same thing does not happen AGAIN ! Major Stress. Lets face it, I could have Bricked this mans ECU a second time. As it was I paid out Nine Hundred Dollars plus over a hundred in shipping. Now the possibility of this happening again was High. 2 Grand Roll The Dice Again is Madness. Yikes. Remember anyone who would have tried to flash those ECU's would have suffered the same fate. As luck would have it, it was my turn to enjoy some real bad luck. There is my blow up story in a Nutshell. Good News is the California Bin file is up and available for all to use.

I am kind of lost on here now that most people recommend Ivan's

Let's clear it up.

Ok this important to understand, Ivan Does "Not" Use Woolich Software. Now you may be asking what does he use ? Well I can only tell you this, the man is smart enough not to tell me. Who could blame him. I hack everything I can get my hands on. I wouldn't tell me either if I were him. He's no fool.

Ivans way is to go into the ECU make the changes and get out. There is No Third party Software added into Your ECU. Zero footprint left behind. Other than the difference in the setting there is no way of knowing ECU was ever played with. All is as it should be.

Not the case with Woolich software. ECU will always have 3rd party footprint. Dealer will know instantly someone has been inside as they to will be Locked Out. If you don't have woolich software you can no longer see behind the curtain.

Woolich Does this for only one reason, He Does Not Want Anyone to Steal His proprietary Software. Can't blame him for that either.

Anyway, I hope you are getting a better understanding of what your getting into. If you really think about it all this is really no big deal. I still don't get the fuss, never did. Year 3 and counting.

Now did I help or make it worse ?

Romans is a stand up guy

Thank you Seno, I'll take that and run with it. I could ask for no higher praise.

Cheers, Pints On Me


* Last updated by: Romans on 12/29/2015 @ 7:58 PM *

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extrapolator


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/29/15 6:40 PM

That's a great explanation, Romans - Thanks

I still have these concerns:

- In the flasher's possession, might my lovely, working, OEM ECU become a brick

- Assuming the brick doesn't happen, might my lovely, smooth, OEM ZX-14R become a stutterer

- Do these flashes actually improve performance

In Vic's thread posting his results, I don't think any proof was ever offered to counter his test runs that showed the exact same performance before and after (maybe even a tad worse performance, tho negligible IIRC)

I'm so tempted to spend the comparatively little money to get my ECU flashed, but keep having to remind myself of these 3 concerns.



=x+rap01a+0r

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Romans


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/29/15 8:51 PM

That's a great explanation, Romans - Thanks

You're more than welcome. Trying to say the most with the least amount of words can sometimes be difficult.

I still have these concerns:- In the flasher's possession, might my lovely, working, OEM ECU become a brick

Need only read above to see that it is or was entirely possible using third party software. Please keep in mind when these Bricks were being produced Woolich software was in it's infancy. Like anything new unexpected issues can and do arise. Lots of guys did have trouble. Most kept very very quiet about it. Others made up stories to blame the customers. Greed in the flash world ran rampant. My hopes are all issues are in the past. I have heard No ill reports lately and I do listen very closely.

- Do these flashes actually improve performance

YES ! of that there can be no doubt. With proper fueling absolutely Awesome. I wish I could sneak up behind you and swap out your ECU and say nothing. Even if only to hear the excitement in your voice after the first ride. I've installed 2500 Titanium Exhaust systems and the guys can't feel the hp increase. But Change that ECU smile tells all. See, now I'm starting to sound like a salesman. That Ends Now Lol.

I'm so tempted to spend the comparatively little money to get my ECU flashed, but keep having to remind myself of these 3 concerns.

If you're having doubts Don't Do It. Start off pulling your flies. This is a Free Mod plus it disables the fly closing part in safety mode. It not the full monty but it's a place to start.

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VicThing


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/29/15 10:59 PM

Here's my opinion as a professional software developer on what's what with WRT and Ivan's software.

With WRT, the key serves two purposes. One is it (helps) protects a WRT user (like CBlast or Romans) from having their BINs read and used by someone else. The other is it's a revenue stream for WRT. Each "Bin Definition File Key" (BDFK) is $100. So let's say you buy a 14R WRT kit. It comes with 1 BDFK. You buy a 2nd ECU and want to flash it as a spare or whatever. You have to buy a 2nd key for $100. I'm sure flash resellers probably get some kind of discount, I'd guess somewhere in the neighborhood of 50-75% of retail. They seem fairly greedy, so I'm going to guess more than less.

It's a fairly strong way of guaranteeing each ECU flashed with WRT software consumes a key. The key is not a requirement for ECU flashing, and it is not necessary to modify the ECU in such a way that makes it obvious it was flashed. Remember this last statement for later though.

As far as Ivan's software, basically there are two choices. Either he had custom software built from the ground up which probably would've been fairly expensive. I'd have to guess in the neighborhood of $60k-100k for all the different makes and models of ECUs. Option two was he uses, or has a customized version of, a publically available 3rd party flashing application. There are ECU flashing applications out there, even some are free and basically you can do everything you can do with WRT with them, as far as adjusting maps, timings, RL, TSL, etc. Heck, it's very possible Ivan and WRT use software developed by the same people but customized for both. Software applications can work just like any other product, for example maybe there's an automotive glass supplier that makes parts for several auto manufacturers.

I've been looking into this myself a little. I can't find what I'm thinking is out there that I'm looking for that would basically let me develop my own flash application. I've found some interesting things but I still think there's something bigger out there that would allow an easier time developing as a whole, and I'd think whoever made WRT or Ivan's application would have access to what I'm looking for.

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/30/15 8:01 AM

Here's my opinion as a professional software developer

With WRT, the key serves two purposes. One is it (helps) protects a WRT user (like CBlast or Romans) from having their BINs read and used by someone else.

Incorrect here Vic. The user/owner of WRT software can read any and all ECU's. We can even unlock if necessary.

See pic below, those 4 ECU's are not all mine. Some have been sent to me for repair, others for reflash, after they have been flashed by others. It's not hard.

I've been looking into this myself a little. I can't find what I'm thinking is out there that I'm looking for that would basically let me develop my own flash application. I've found some interesting things but I still think there's something bigger out there that would allow an easier time developing as a whole, and I'd think whoever made WRT or Ivan's application would have access to what I'm looking for.

Buy ZX10 Racing ECU Software. Move a couple of pins and make it your own. Use Kawi's own software like you're supposed to ?

Tests Run in Real Time. What the bike is really doing is the study. ECU #'s don't always match the affect. Why ?

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VicThing


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/30/15 10:18 AM

Romans,

Let me make sure I understand this. Person A buys a WRT setup. Person A sends an ECU to you to have flashed, fuel maps, timings, etc. They get the flashed ECU back, plug it in, and download your BIN file into their WRT. They can examine your mappings, timings, alter them, then reflash them to dozens of other ECUs (given they've purchased the necessary keys)?

Or would that require them to use the unlock feature first on the ECU you flashed?

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Hub


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/30/15 10:21 AM

ECU #'s don't always match the affect. Why ?

You! Improve that air cleaner door.
You! Change the panels to look ferrarisk.
You! Improve the emissions w/open loop!

You see them fiddlefucking around is it evolves, not some instant snap to attention of every detail.



Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

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Hub


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/30/15 10:30 AM

Good question, Vic. Hey Romes, can I take a crack at it? Just kidding.



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Romans


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/30/15 7:00 PM

Romans,
Let me make sure I understand this. Person A buys a WRT setup. Person A sends an ECU to you to have flashed, fuel maps, timings, etc. They get the flashed ECU back, plug it in, and download your BIN file into their WRT. They can examine your mappings, timings, alter them, then reflash them to dozens of other ECUs (given they've purchased the necessary keys)?

Bingo, Eyes are now open.

Vic when I got into this I shared as I grew in knowledge. So begs the question, was my flash ready to share. Answer to that was No, Yet some did take it, and did share it, made small changes and claimed as their own.(Long Sad Story, Yawn) You don't want me to bore you with the details.

Important to understand, I'm always learning, mind will always be open. Not all can say the same. Others have posted "There Will Only Be One Flash, No One Can Make Anything Better" LMAO, I love reading crap like this. Game on ! My flash is still evolving and will only End when all issues are solved.

My Tuning Style has always been a combo of Ivan's every day and Brock's Top End. I've worked towards the best of both. I have studied from Ivan's everyday on from day one. Brocks Top End from Day Two. Both have a style I love. Why not mix the two. So I Did. This is a Massive subject for later.

My current focus is on gearing stutter. Main reason is, the Big Brains have left those in need to suffer. For Fucks sakes it's almost 2016 now and we have had zero help from industry leaders. So,,,let us hacks fix it, others will claim the knowledge as there own. So what, end result is we ALL have the Fix. Win,,, Correct ?

Vic the reason I'm telling you all this crap is because I want you to know there is lots of bull shit if you step up to Help others. But, if you want to try, I will help you shave a few years off the learning curve. Then you teach us all. software guy eh ???? Hmmmmm. Lets play. We are worth it. So Teach !

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Romans


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/30/15 7:08 PM

Good question, Vic. Hey Romes, can I take a crack at it? Just kidding.

Now Now hub. I know u know that I know that you know. Take your crack. you've been quite to long. the boys have got bored and gone quite. wake them up.

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Romans


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/30/15 7:13 PM

ECU #'s don't always match the affect. Why ?
You! Improve that air cleaner door.
You! Change the panels to look ferrarisk.
You! Improve the emissions w/open loop!
You see them fiddlefucking around is it evolves, not some instant snap to attention of every detail.

What if I told you the fuel pressure in each bike did not match. Think Deeply of what that means. Pressure behind each injector does not match bike to bike. Plus Plus Plus. Shhhhh, some won't believe. So begs the question, does one flash fit all bikes ,,,,,, No !

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Rook


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/30/15 7:28 PM

Amen. If you want to make it very simple, just think back to the days of map trading v custom tune. Flashing is a new toy to raise the bar a few notches but every bike still has its unique characteristics that require individual attention just like the old days.



08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE ZX-14 Now Deceased, will be resurected 2024 ZX-14R bran friggin NEW!

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Hub


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RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/31/15 7:54 AM

What if I told you the fuel pressure in each bike did not match

I believe that. Book says; and not looking it up, but say the '06 had a deep sump pump, the '08 to current use the shorter sump size. Both call for 44psi so the pump is one pressure out the tube. The ECU cuts the pulse rate via how much amp they program at the injector's fpm (fuel per minute).

So when the press release says; 'we use 3 intervention techniques rather than the standard-2 the rest of the industry uses, meaning, inj/ign cut, we use fuel/inj/ign to cut, meaning, intervene on the power delivery. So yes, early gen [w/deep sump], used larger fmp injectors, and the 2-cut-standard. So I can see a fueling at the software manipulation, but the physical pump is mechanically preset to said [44 psi] range, give or take a few pounds at the processor.

So begs the question, was my flash ready to share. Answer to that was No, Yet some did take it, and did share it, made small changes and claimed as their own.(Long Sad Story, Yawn) You don't want me to bore you with the details.

Whooo, are we saying that Vic came up with a, 'can you do this' scenario, and you say, 'yet some did take, did share it, made changes' and now Vic is on a revised Romes map?

I can see you were the first to send that flash out, was in more of a development stage looking back etc., but then the sad as it goes story develops, and here we are. As far as the gauges on the lapper's screen, from left to right, looks like rpm is under 1,000 rpm, but we read the middle ignition degrees and book says; idle's ignition is set @ 10° BTDC; but looks like 10+ degrees with an under 1,000 rpm. Far right gauge reads AFR and we are looking at 13a+. So say 13.1 AFR. Idle/Ign/AFR look pretty close to me.

So how subtle can either one be? I'm trying to recall Lee's photos that may have shown a flashed AFR at idle? And how close were those numbers as opposed to the number above on the lapper? So now I'm getting confused. Vic finds no difference is a revised map from someone else?

What if I told you the fuel pressure in each bike did not match.

The deep think was when I dyno'd the '06 injectors on the '08 with the '08 ECU. It ran rich as hell and bellows of white smoke were pushing out of the pipe. The think Deep was already in place. Pressure behind each injector does not match bike to bike could mean cali vs 48 state obviously. The question, 'does one flash fit all bikes' is of course no. Look at the '06 injectors to the '08's ECU. I got that part.

You still have a demand schedule vs. handcuffed math. Did you disable the 3kills? Is the 2kills of old no longer in function? Doubt it; just different math or you'd flash maybe at the dash? No maps were altered for the 3kills so maybe there is a universal 'no effect' occurring? Main fuel map is the popup. I sit down with Vic, he's going to explain surface speak. Speak like in, 'when this milliamp exceeds ____ fill in the blank number, proceed to backup.' I know it's not how the code reads, but you come up with the idea, you can code it I would assume, yes? The processor can only do a job if told, so every map has to be written to perform said function, yes?

Rather than that surface shit, the way I think is backdoor. I've got enough processing steps to be dangerous in theory. If I knew the backdoor to the codes, then I could have a better understanding of the surface code Vic knows. So where I'm going says; the flash may not matter; we have no blinking warning window the flash pushed upon.

Again, the factory sells a preset, then you come along and fiddlefuck with it. This movement in tune becomes more like a plug$pay. You'll begin paying for more tuning fixtures on the bike; just because you upset the preset. Thus begins the halfassed tune>>> we start out with flash alone. This goes right back to watching the tuners and see who runs an ECU with pc, be it stock or flashed.

So WATT I see is more work at the tune w/piggyback setup. Autotune a flash for your neighborhood kind of:
1. Altitude
2. Ambient
3. Temp

My atmo sensor under the seat knows my altitude pressure. So for me to tune a bike, I'm not about to throw in some preset flashed bike with a 2,000 foot level. Because the flashed atmo number now uses this number against a 200 foot environment? And that high alt map was flashed with the AAT presets fed into the dyno room also. So that right there can factor or refactor the mapping to said 200 foot. So, here is our revised 2000 foot flash for your 200 foot bike... happy halfass racing/riding.

Where the racing community pack up their gear, head for the next state and that altitude/a&t, plug in autotune, save and are ready for a revised map to meet a new AAT.



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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

Joined: 02/13/09

Posts: 5926

RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/31/15 9:00 AM

Vic is on a revised Romes map?

No Sir, Vics map is his own.

The Engineers from Kawasaki have tuned each cylinder fuel map Separately. You know what I mean, Fuel map for cylinder 1 Fuel map cylinder 2 Fuel Map Cylinder 3 Fuel Map cylinder 4.

In Vics ECU all his fueling maps are identical in all cylinders. This is the Major difference. No one Else Does this. C posted this info in other threads, so I'm not crossing the line here before someone mentions it.

The deep think was when I dyno'd the '06 injectors on the '08 with the '08 ECU. It ran rich as hell and bellows of white smoke were pushing out of the pipe. The think Deep was already in place. Pressure behind each injector does not match bike to bike could mean cali vs 48 state obviously. The question, 'does one flash fit all bikes' is of course no. Look at the '06 injectors to the '08's ECU. I got that part.

I know a few guys were playing with this. If you look into the ECU you can quickly see why bike ran rich as hell. Fueling for the 440cc injector compared to the 08 330cc is much different. Yest when guys sell ECU's they always post ECU for 2006 To 2011.

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VicThing


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Joined: 07/17/14

Posts: 2402

RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/31/15 9:35 AM

Question. WRT does or does not password protect a WRT flashed ECU?

To explain a little about what I said before about the BDFK having two purposes, flash protection and income stream. Using this scenario, point out where what I'm stating is incorrect.

Scenario:
Titans has a WRT setup and sales flash services.

BicBling buy's Titans full flash, maps, RL, TSL, etc. BicBling sends ECU to Titans.

Titans consumed all his current BDFKs. He buys a BDFK from WRT to flash an ECU.
- at the time ordered, it is just a BDFK for a specific ECU but not specific to BicBling's

Titans flashes the ECU. The newly purchased BDFK is consumed and is registered to BicBlings ECU.
- a password is written into the ECU, possibly the BDFK or derived from the BDFK, the flasher themselves do not enter a password such as 1234Titans5678
- If that ECU fails, that key is dead. BicBling buys a replacement ECU, sends it to Titans, Titans will have to buy another BDFK which will be consumed when the new ECU is flashed. Titans cannot reuse the BDFK registered to the last ECU.

------- 6 months later --------

HBomb also sales WRT based flash services, similar to Titans (and other WRT based flashers). WRT recently developed a Wheelie Control option which let's a rider do a controlled wheelies. HBomb buys the new WRT Wheelie Control module and adds that to his list of services.

BicBling orders Wheelie Control from HBomb. Sends HBomb his ECU. BicBling wants to retain everything else the same about the ECU though, maps and other settings.

HBomb receives the ECU.

HBomb plugs it in reading the file directly from the ECU
HBomb saves the new file, naming it 21175-0838BicBlingECUOriginal.

HBomb then clicks the Wheelie Control button which modifies the file.
HBomb compares the original and wheeliecontrol files to verify nothing but the wheelie control option changed.
HBomb saves this modified file as 21175-0838BicBlingECUAddedWheelieControl.

HBomb is out of BDFKs for this ECU and orders a new one from WRT.

HBomb then writes the modified file to the ECU.
- The BDFK HBomb bought is now registered to this ECU.
- - a password is written into the ECU, possibly the BDFK or derived from the BDFK, the flasher themselves do not enter a password such as HBomb1234HBomb

----- 6 months later ----

WRT has developed a new module called QuarterMiler. It'll basically run the bike down the track for a rider. Titans buys this module adding it as a service.

BicBling wants this added.

Basically the same scenario takes place as above, EXCEPT Titans has a BDFK registered to this ECU. He writes the ECU no problem and does not have to buy a new BDFK.
- the same password as the first time Titan's flashed the ECU is written into the ECU, possibly the BDFK or derived from the BDFK, the flasher themselves do not enter a password such as 1234Titans5678

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VicThing


VicThing's Gravatar

Joined: 07/17/14

Posts: 2402

RE: Which ECU Tune?? and Keeping that front wheel planted...
12/31/15 9:46 AM

So I can see a fueling at the software manipulation, but the physical pump is mechanically preset to said [44 psi] range, give or take a few pounds at the processor.

I don't believe Kaw individually maps every bike given these small differences. If anything, even in an open loop system, the ECU may measure and trim the fuel maps to account for one bike running 42 psi and another 46 psi.

This is a key question. Does Kaw individually map every bike? Read below...


You still have a demand schedule vs. handcuffed math. Did you disable the 3kills? Is the 2kills of old no longer in function? Doubt it; just different math or you'd flash maybe at the dash? No maps were altered for the 3kills so maybe there is a universal 'no effect' occurring? Main fuel map is the popup. I sit down with Vic, he's going to explain surface speak. Speak like in, 'when this milliamp exceeds ____ fill in the blank number, proceed to backup.' I know it's not how the code reads, but you come up with the idea, you can code it I would assume, yes? The processor can only do a job if told, so every map has to be written to perform said function, yes?

This is where we get into how Hub's math's work. Basically Hub is attempting to reverse engineer these signals. There is two ways of getting the maps off the ECU. One is reading them as the file, the other would be running the ECU in a test mode and based on the signals generating the maps based on that. Theoretically, depending on the signal ranges, this would reproduce the maps that are written into the file itself. It would be difficult to do, especially by hand, but having the right interface a computer could do this fairly easily.

I theorize this is how the earlier BIN DEFINITIONS WRT had were generated. This is why there were errors in their Bin Definitions. I think the issue was WRT did not have the ability to crack passwords and could not defeat Kaw's default password. Yes, the ECU could be overwritten, but not read directly.

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