What about a larger or 'better' MC?

As mentioned previously, it's bore and stroke that determines brake feel and actual pressure. Intuitively, I'd say a larger bore with a shorter stroke is what you want. It's been years since I did the research but all the info is online if you start searching. You can probably find an inexpensive MC for sale online that has the specs you want. Rear brake MCs seem to be fairly universal in fitment. They usually have slotted boltholes. The rest of the install is some tigon tubing and maybe a fluid reservoir.

After all's said and done, the rear brake isn't going to do much to slow you down quickly at speed. Not having a strong rear brake might be better because you learn to rely on the fronts. I'd still be interested in a stronger rear brake but it's more for novelty.

---

After all's said and done, the rear brake isn't going to do much to slow you down quickly at speed. Not having a strong rear brake might be better because you learn to rely on the fronts. I'd still be interested in a stronger rear brake but it's more for novelty.

Right, I'm already a front brake guy, but I
want an 'effective' rear brake;
1.
So I can lock it up
in a straight line and come to a complete stop,
call it a stunt, call it improving bike skills,
cause for me it's actually both, and something
I DO NOT RECOMMEND TO ANYONE ELSE!
I'm not a stunt rider per say, far from it, but
the simple stunts I drill on, I take very
seriously, and do very close analysis on ever
last detail of how I'm doing and how the bike
is doing in every drill that I do.
2. In the event I loose my front brake, for
any reason, I don't want to have a weak rear
brake as my back up.
--
I always front brake approaching corners that
need braking, but also drag the back brake
to help settle the bike, Micheal Neeves does this,
I borrow that from him.
I probably mentioned that a lot of GP riders
never touch the rear brake, but they also
have the back wheel off the ground, on
corner approach.

I've done that a number of times myself. ...I actually wouldn't mind owning one of those little bikes.

Yes indeed, me too.
There are a couple of ZX400 model-years also that
for my money are the best-looking bikes
graphics wise I've ever seen, certainly
among the very best.
And its an inline 4, my all-time favorite motor.

One of my favorite motorcycle topics. After people take their commuter car built for everyone out of the shop after a brake job, they complain the brakes are so strong now, they're going to fly through the windshield. That's actually exactly what you want, especially with hand controls. Humans have much better sensitivity in their hands and fingers than other animals, even other primates. Other than the brain processing power (which might be debatable) tactile sensitivity is probably the only thing that enabled us to survive. Even the worst can easily develop great feel for tiny changes in pressure through the hands. IMO, you might as well use that to your advantage when riding a bike. There's no need for wussy brakes if you never got used to using them. I don't think the feet are quite as sensitive but the brain connection is the same.

Yep, feet not so sensitive, but when locked in
securely on the bike, with the triangle of
hands on bars, and left foot locked in pretty
good, the right foot is more easily finessed
on that brake.
At some point on my dirt bike I was rubbing
the inside of my foot against the engine
case, using it as a kind of static guide
and friction plate to help finesse that
rear brake, it was fairly effective, I
don't do that with the 14, for some reason
it' doesn't seem needed, 100's of hours
of parking lot drills with this and other
bikes, probably helps get my foot interface
predictable and pretty steady.
FRONT brake, is 99% middle finger only,
(unless I'm straight line, no-traffic
hwy riding, the mid finger is always hovering
over that front brake)
clutch is 90% middle and index finger,
but I 'flirt' with index-only finger from time
to time, (stunt levers) just to see if
I might one day be able to rely on it,
which is doubtful, but I keep trying.

I've practiced holding the grip with my pointer and thumb while using the remaining fingers to operate the levers but I'm used to pulling the clutch lever all the way to the grip so it pinches my finger. It would be a lot more practical if the control pod wasn't there. I had ideas of deleting the control pods and replacing them with buttons on the ram air covers. I wanted to delete the ignition too and replace it with a switch and push button.

---

It would be a lot more practical if the control pod wasn't there.

I've experienced that too, where the pod feels like it's
in the way.
It also seems or seemed to me that the typical lever starts
its arc or radius way too soon, and should start its
bend toward the bar later, or further away from the pod
or where the lever is anchored.
And my shorty levers would be better if the anchor
point was actually about an inch longer lol, so that
the two + - finger flat-grip area was closer
to the outside of the bar, or the bar end, for
both levers.

I tried my OEM levers earlier today as we were talking about this and it's the same, the control pod is actually taking up space the lever was designed to have available for fingers. My goal in eliminating the control pods was to make the handle bars narrower but another bonus would be easily single fingering the levers....although the clutch is lever is rather hard onmy Gen1 and Gen2.

---

Yes!
I see the issue more clearly now, or the cause
of the issue. 'Design' or Design flaw.

the control pod is actually taking up space
the lever was designed to have available for fingers.

100%
This is why my 'shorty' levers look odd on both bars,
they are dwarfed by the bar lengths and I was thinking
about removing the bar end-weights to make the
interface look better, I realized at the time that
the lever mounts were offset inward of the bars,
but didn't 'put it together' that the lever
'assembly' should be further out and aren't because
the clusters are there, and as you pointed out,
a lot of the finger space is taken up by
the cluster.
The right side brake lever doesn't need to be
pulled as close to the bar when maxed out,
during hard braking, so that side is a bit different.
As far as clutch-pull, yeah, it is a harder
pull than I would prefer too.

The levers on my GW can't be pushed
up or down,(rotated on the bar axis),
I think my Electra Glide might have been
the same, but this issue of 'cluster in the way'
got me looking at the mounting of
my levers, it appears that they may be
able to be rotated where I'd prefer them,
I'll get out there and loosen the bolts
and see, later this am.

In my case, I like my after market levers,
and I can pretty much live with the
cluster/s being in the 'wrong' spot but
for you and maybe myself in the future,
I see two more 'possible' options over what you
are currently considering;

1. Swap the cluster for the lever, which
would possibly entail lengthening clutch
hydraulic-line and or cluster wiring harness,
as well as shaving off any detents that might
be holding the cluster in place, or from
rotating.
2. If an alum welder is available as well
as fabrication skills, it wouldn't exactly
be a SpaceX level project to insert
a 1'' + - segment into the 'straightish'
part of the clutch lever making that
straight segment longer or long enough
to clear some more space for the
fingers to not get smashed when
pulling down the lever.
---
It would be great if Brock or some other
aftermarket performance parts maker
would address this issue for us all,
and give us modified levers, maybe
traditional as well as 'shorty' levers that
are more user friendly, and can make up
for the location of the cluster/s.

This is why my 'shorty' levers look odd on both bars,
they are dwarfed by the bar lengths and I was thinking
about removing the bar end-weights to make the
interface look better

Removing the bar end weights makes a big improvement in the look of shorties. I used billet bar ends that were a bit smaller and shorter than the OEM weights and I was considering machining them out further. You could go with no bar ends at all. There is a black plastic, dome shaped plug in the end of the handlebar. Another choice is the flat disk shaped bar ends that are used on dirt bikes. They would look weird with the dome plugs in the bar end but you can also get aftermarket handlebars with flat ends. There are even carbon fiber handlebars available. A member was considering just buying carbon fiber tube that was considerably less expensive but I'd be cautious about that. Something not designed to be a handlebar might not be safe. I put bar end mirror bungs on the end of each handlebar of my Hayabusa and it looks good. I'd still like to remove the pods from both bikes and make the handlebars an inch a half shorter. Aesthetically speaking, I think the bars themselves look too wide with or without bar end weights. I'm sure this also deters from aerodynamics. The wide bars are probably more comfortable and add leverage for 0 mph movement of the steering.

the lever
'assembly' should be further out and aren't because
the clusters are there, and as you pointed out,
a lot of the finger space is taken up by
the cluster.

LOL ...or maybe that finger space we're after was actually designed to be cluster space! Interesting thought, I wonder if levers were made this shape to allow for finger grip on the bar in the days before bikes had control pods?

The OEM lever perches are positioned according to a small detent drilled in the OEM bar. The perch clamps have a peg that fits to this hole on either side. You can't move the perches unless you drill a new hole or you could get aftermarket master cylinders which is what I always wanted to do. My 2024 has Brembo MCs but I'd bet they are still made with the detent peg. They use aftermarket brands on bikes but IMO, it'd just for the name. The specs are still according to OEM. Stock Brembos aren't what you'd use if you bought them on your own.

The right side brake lever doesn't need to be
pulled as close to the bar when maxed out,
during hard braking, so that side is a bit different.
As far as clutch-pull, yeah, it is a harder
pull than I would prefer too.

I have locked the front wheel in braking at the track. This was with partial lever travel. I definitely locked the front before my deer strike as there was a grey line left on the road. The rear brake was non-functional at the time. Both front lockouts, about 70 mph. My Hayabusa will lock the front but it does require all of the lever travel. So no, your fingers will never get in the way of the 14's brake lever because you'll never pull it that far.

As for the clutch, a lot of us have griped about how hard it is but it's manageable. My 2024 has a Brembo clutch MC and it feels the same as the old Nissan on my Gen1. There might be some mechanical reason the clutch requires so much fluid pressure. It's not possible to see how far the lever needs to be pulled to fully disengage the clutch, even with the cover off. The clutch pusher rod requires the clutch cover to be installed as a stopper for the pusher rod. I'm a full travel clutch shifter. That's how I learned and I'll probably stay that way. I guess I could make an assertion based on the position of the clutch when I feel it engage at idle.

* Last updated by: Rook on 11/30/2025 @ 5:37 AM *

---

We're mostly running the forum, Strat. I hope someone else is reading. BG, if you're out there watching, thanks.

---

Removing the bar end weights makes a big improvement in the look of shorties. I used billet bar ends that were a bit smaller and shorter than the OEM weights and I was considering machining them out further. You could go with no bar ends at all. There is a black plastic, dome shaped plug in the end of the handlebar

I'll reply to the other comments later today, cool issues to
discuss, and also, hopefully someone down the road will
get a heads up on some of these things we're hashing over.
--
Meanwhile; I'd looked into removing my bar end weights a few wks back,
when I take one off I noted a hard rubber thingy that
seemed 'welded' in place, does that come out somehow?
My weights are just a black, steel dome, even if I
upgrade a weight to a nicer looking one, the ones
I've considered that look excellent have the traditional
insert mounting hdwe that wouldn't interface correctly
with that big rubber piece. I can take a picture later
of that rubber piece I'm referring too.

I can take a picture later
of that rubber piece I'm referring too.

Perhaps you're referring to the domed plastic plug in the bar end. my aftermarket bar ends were not machined to fit to those. The recess in my aftermarket bar ends had a flat bottom but they still worked. Because the recess didn't have a rounded bottom, there was a gap on the LH side. This left the perfect space for a bar end mirror on the left and there was no drag between the bar end and the throttle grip on the right. These were cheap chinese made parts but they worked although apparently by accident. If you spend a few bucks, you'll probably get aftermarket bar ends that fit just like OEM. Looking at the bars of my Gen2, I see there is a quarter inch gap between the bar end and the grip. There's just enough space for a clamp for a bar end mirror to the outside. Or a switch bracket to the inside if you position a grip outward. Personally, I'll delete the pods and go with aftermarket bars that have a flat end that accepts a bar end mirror bung. Aftermarket grips also come in various lengths. I had cheap ones that were a bit shorter and this also left extra space.

---

Meanwhile; I'd looked into removing my bar end weights a few wks back,
when I take one off I noted a hard rubber thingy that
seemed 'welded' in place, does that come out somehow?

If you mean the plastic dome plug in the handlebar, no, I don't think it can be removed unless you dril or grind it off. I'd just get aftermarket bars rather than destroy the expensive OEM part.

---

If you mean the plastic dome plug in the handlebar, no, I don't think it can be removed unless you dril or grind it off. I'd just get aftermarket bars rather than destroy the expensive OEM part.

Yes, it seems to be an oem deal, very solid in the pipe,
good idea to just leave it and try some after market
bars.

Because the recess didn't have a rounded bottom, there was a gap on the LH side. This left the perfect space for a bar end mirror on the left and there was no drag between the bar end and the throttle grip on the right.

Both ends have a gap of about 3/16'' / 7ish mm.
Didn't look good to me, and the right side gap
had the throttle tube clanging outward and inward
that much, very sloppy , I wanted no slop but
realized I didn't want to make that space so
tight that the throttle would stick.
I cut some rings off of a piece of white
pvc, to fill those gaps, which took the slop
out of the throttle tube, and made the bar
end interface look a bit better.

We're mostly running the forum, Strat. I hope someone else is reading. BG, if you're out there watching, thanks.

Indeed! I don't know BG, but thanks, I'm learning
a lot of key things on this forum.
----
I wonder if it would be worthwhile to open an
additional, general sub forum; ZX (ALL), busa, Sport Bike,
and run some ads(not popups) at the bottom of
pages. I never click on popups and floating side ads
anywhere, but I always scroll to the bottom of pages
each visit and 'visit' the 'sponsoring' ads.
I kept looking around for ads to click here, but
never found any, so this is out of pocket,
for BG I guess....

I was able to rotate my front levers to more
agreeable positions yesterday, I then rode and
didn't really notice anything hardly but I know
from the past that levers need to be at a certain
angle to make them feel better, there was also
a tiny gap between clusters for each, so that
was nice pull them outward if even just a little bit.

...Oh yeah, the torque on both cluster-sets
was incredibly OVER torqued!!!!!!!!!!! I mean
it was way beyond ridiculous, felt like 80lb ft
on those poor little bolts.

I didn't want to make that space so
tight that the throttle would stick.
I cut some rings off of a piece of white
pvc, to fill those gaps, which took the slop
out of the throttle tube, and made the bar
end interface look a bit better.

That was smart because the throttle grip can stick if there's no gap. I had to finagle my RH bar end mirror to make sure there was enough room for the throttle to turn smoothly. You paint that pvc black and it will blend right in. My 2024 has about 5/15" gap on the left, perfect for a bar end mirror or aftermarket switch bracket. The right is an eighth inch, not bad but could be a 16th.

Indeed! I don't know BG, but thanks, I'm learning
a lot of key things on this forum.

BG is "Big Guy" ...or Bill Gordon, who owns this site. He's been keeping it alive for years in spite of what appears to be pretty low traffic. It's meant a lot to me through the years.

* Last updated by: Rook on 12/1/2025 @ 4:59 PM *

---

I wonder if it would be worthwhile to open an
additional, general sub forum; ZX (ALL), busa, Sport Bike,
and run some ads(not popups) at the bottom of
pages. I never click on popups and floating side ads
anywhere, but I always scroll to the bottom of pages
each visit and 'visit' the 'sponsoring' ads.
I kept looking around for ads to click here, but
never found any, so this is out of pocket,
for BG I guess....

It is a good thing to click on the ads to help a forum. I was told that recently about hayabusa.org Also to post instead of just peruse the conversations of others or click the like button.

We have an "Other Bikes" section on this forum.

I'm not sure why BG doesn't use advertising. All we ever had was C-Blast who fell into disrepute for his flashing which was a ripoff of his previous employer and which he didn't have the knowledge to address certain issues on...at least that's how the story went. Yeah, I believe BG is putting his own money into keeping this forum afloat. He should ask for donations. I would pay to keep in contact with my friends here. There was another forum we all met on that went defunct in about 2009. BG was a member and started this site since he's in the biz. There might be a couple more but Hub is a member who was here from the old site. BG too. Kruz is here sometimes. There may be a few more. I'm pretty old but not all the way back to 2006. I started posting on the old, now gone site in 08. Somehow, someone got ahold of me when this site started up and I was very happy to come over. Grn14 was another member from the start but we believe him to be deceased at this point. Monty was his name. I spoke to him on the phone several times. It's fun to look at the old threads sometimes and see the posts of the old members who inspired me. There have been lots of good people.

I was able to rotate my front levers to more
agreeable positions yesterday,

Apparently the Gen2 doesn't have the hole and peg for positioning the levers clamp. My 08 had that. I suppose you could grind off the peg.

...Oh yeah, the torque on both cluster-sets
was incredibly OVER torqued!!!!!!!!!!! I mean
it was way beyond ridiculous, felt like 80lb ft
on those poor little bolts.

WOW! and plastic too!

The control pods are convenient but I gravitated toward making my Gen1 a race bike that was street legal. I'd like to delete the pods and put the switches somewhere within reach but not at the cost of those long handlebars. I'd have a dedicated touring bike for comfort. I don't care at all for comfort on a sport bike, it's for going fast........which I don't plan to do much on the road anymore. I went 160 many times, almost hit 180 once. Do yu know hoe GD crazy that is? I value my life now after crashing. I value the bikes too. You go fast, you will crash at some point. It might take a couple decades but you will crash. You can crash going slow too but chances are it will be lot less worse than going fast. I ride slow now. Every once in a while, I'll go fast but it increases the chance of a crash exponentially. I like being alive and not having wrecked bikes.

---

BG is "Big Guy" ...or Bill Gordon, who owns this site. He's been keeping it alive for years in spite of what appears to be pretty low traffic. It's meant a lot to me through the years.

I not in a high income bracket, but I would gladly contribute too,
and or certainly click/visit ads.

I'm pretty old but not all the way back to 2006. I started posting on the old, now gone site in 08.

Oh yeah, I've read a lot of your tutorials and posts, back through
at least '14 +- , that's amazing bro...
I started debating political issues in about 2002 on a
musician's forum, so like you, I'd still be there today
if not for them folding, and the horrid censorship.
It's very cool to have friends in forums that you
can more or less depend on and be familiar with.

* Last updated by: Stratovarious on 12/1/2025 @ 6:10 PM *

Yes. What do you play? I used to be a guitarist. Not very talented, I required many hours of practice. I started to get sort of good after two years. I had to give it up because I went to art school. i am gifted as an artist but when you put it into practice, it takes all your time. I did it professionally for nine years. I'm really good but I couldn't make a living at it. I went to work for a company but realized there were people with no special skills making as much or more money than I did. So I did that instead. I work in a factory now and make more money at it than anything else I could do with my talent. I pretty much do whatever I can to make as much money as possible without being stressed out. LOL I find it pretty satisfying. So what do you play, Flamenco guitar? Good God I love that. It actually drives me crazy. Acoustic guitar in my hands was such a warm thing that responded to my every touch. Electric was cool but acoustic without an amp was straight from my soul. It was magic. What do you play?

---

Yes. What do you play?

Yeah, this last year I've been just back to playing
blues, and southern rock, I started in 1966 lol.
Anyone else would be one hella lot better than I
am, given the time I've spent on it.
I've played classic rock in bands before and when
it became classic rock, covers, and an original
band back in the 80's .
I don't play flamenco but could if I decided to,
I love that and Latin music.
I've played metal, hard rock and my own styles using
'interesting' scales with lots of taps, I
had a thing going years ago with chording
with both hands which amazed people, abandoned that
and just bounced around a lot with my music styles.
Today I have a finger style that is unique to me
and I just keep cataloging/jotting down riffs that I come up
with that most others would be hard pressed to
duplicate due to my unique interpretation of
finger style guitar, if I find time down the road
I intend to try to pass along what I've come up
with to other players via youtube, but then
I may not find the inspiration to do so, hard
to say.
I have lots of loud equipment but have been
playing my strat for quite some time unplugged.
I used to spend 8 to 15 or so hours a day
playing, now I try to limit it to 1 or two
hours, and focus on things like bikes and
having coffee with other knuckleheads, I
feel similarly as you do about wasting time
on something that may not be the best path
for us overall.

I started in 1966 lol.

When I was born.

I used to spend 8 to 15 or so hours a day
playing

Jeeziz H! I know though. Two hours of playing the same six notes just goes by in a flash.

I
had a thing going years ago with chording
with both hands which amazed people

With the guitar on your lap? It's been done by a few. It's still amazing to hear and see. Way beyond what I did.

I loved finger picking. Never did it with an electric guitar but that's how Mark Knopfler did it. I played Dire Straights songs with a pick. When I picked up my acoustic guitar, it was a really beautiful thing though. It was like a part of my body, I was really intimately involved with it and it came through in the performance.

if I find time down the road
I intend to try to pass along what I've come up
with to other players via youtube, but then
I may not find the inspiration to do so, hard
to say.

A novice becomes an expert and they are no longer doing it in a masturbatory fashion. As a novice you do what you do and ooo and ahhh over your own work. As an expert, you require the support of an audience. You already did all you can do for yourself. Some mature artist disagree, "no, I'm just doing it for myself." They always seem to be seeking an audience though. My personal belief is that is a normal part of artistic growth and a vital part. What I do is work. Why would I do it when I can do something easier that pays more? I got my rocks off on doing it for myself decades ago.

used to spend 8 to 15 or so hours a day
playing, now I try to limit it to 1 or two
hours, and focus on things like bikes and
having coffee with other knuckleheads, I
feel similarly as you do about wasting time
on something that may not be the best path
for us overall.

I pick bikes and other things. These are things I'm not an expert at and still enjoy the masturbatory stage of. There are things I do I do not have an aptitude for and I will never become an expert. Those are still great things in my life and I get better than most at them. I could play guitar again because I was never close to being an expert at that.

---

Jeeziz H! I know though. Two hours of playing the same six notes just goes by in a flash.

Yeah, time does pass quickly.
With most of the styles that I
explore from year to year, there
are more than 12 notes available
plus occasional 1/4 tones work as well,
a lot of it depends on the direction
of a phrase, as in single note phrasing,
a given note that isn't in the scale
is magic when used as a passing tone
in one direction but one direction only
the 'wrong' direction does not work.
For instance, in blues all 12 semitones
work, many if not most players
are unaware of this, they all work
but many notes only work in one direction and
not the other, but there are also notes
that work in the turn around and not
really anywhere else, like in a I IV V,
during the V there are certain types of
note combos that work there, but sound
way out of place if playing during the
other sections of a progression.
I've never played with guitars on my lap,
Jeff Healy did though, he was a great player.
Then there are lap-steel players too, but
that's actually a slide instrument.
-------------

I loved finger picking. Never did it with an electric guitar but that's how Mark Knopfler did it. I played Dire Straights songs with a pick. When I picked up my acoustic guitar, it was a really beautiful thing though. It was like a part of my body, I was really intimately involved with it and it came through in the performance.

I wasn't drawn to Mark's sound or style, it was
incredibly technical and quick, and interesting
to listen to, I didn't know at the time
that he used fingers, my guess is that he hybrid picks,
which is using fingers and pick, at the same time,
Johnny Winter was one of my idols,
he used a thumb pick and fingers, and a few tunings
when playing slide.
I'll use a pick from time to time but abandoned
hybrid picking once I finished developing my
5 finger style, which is similar to but
not the same as classical-picking.

* Last updated by: Stratovarious on 12/2/2025 @ 4:10 AM *