All good stuff guys!.I noticed with my bike-if I come into a nice curve,hitting 90 or so,using my outside knee to brace against the tank,and tucking in the inside,looking out around the windscreen,upper body leaning into the curve-I get really positive results as far as handling go.I can't get my knee to quite bend down in the triangle configuration though.So usually I get it out and somewhat away from the bike's body there,and ride with my body almost off to the inside,my outside knee holding me on there.There's quite a bit of "shalom" type roads here,so the "twisties" allow me to switch rapidly back and forth, making adjustments as to how she's feeling in the turns.I try to maintain a light grip on the bars-using my hands as a "steering damper" so to speak.Maybe I'm doing things wrong-but usually I can add inputs to the bar ends themselves and not really grab very hard at all on the grips.Often just going through with just my palms "pushing" on the bar ends.The front end tracks pretty well doing it like that.Any thoughts about my style guys?I honestly don't know what is considered "safe" or stupid!I've never taken lessons on a bike like this-I've only read about this stuff or watched videos of those guys racing.

Blue, I never back completely out of the throttle. Just a suttle change in the throttle makes all the difference. I always try set my entry point and once turn in is initiated start rolling on the throttle, but as you are negotiating your turn if someting appears in your line you can make suttle throttle changes to change you arc and avoid it. That throttle cgange may be coming off or on the throttle only 1 0r 2% and that might be aenough to widen or tighten your arc for avoidance.

I'm dating myself, but I suggest you find a video that Wayne Rainey put out called Rainey's Way. Wayne was a three time 500 MotoGP Champion in the early 90s and was smooth as silk. An accident left him parallyzed, but for being the best I have ever seen at racing, he is the man. An example is when taking that right handed corner, stay left and don't turn until you have to, then cut accross the lane. This gives you less turning radius for a faster line. Mkae sure you are looking through the corner. As you are entering the corner and lets say it collapses, you have enough room to adjust using throttle or just leaning it harder.

If any of you guys have ever riden in Southern Cali on Angeles Crest Hwy 2, you know about collapsing corners. Its been a few years, but it sure was fun. Check out Wayne at Laguna Seca.

http://www.motorsportmad.com/view/6178/500cc-1990-laguna-seca-on-board-wayne-rainey

Yes-that's a what I'mma talkin about!!!!Great vid there!

* Last updated by: blue07 on 11/19/2009 @ 6:44 AM *

yeah, you have to look where you want to go, or where you look you will go! Common mistake many riders make, even us old pro's need to remember this all the time on rides!

well i went from a zx6 to a 14 toatally diffrent in handling but i found this trick to helping with turns i just move to the back of the sest it helps the balance

Sharkey,

I agree with you and that is functinoally also what Keith Code's school also teaches. As I've been reading/following what folks post up on their bike accidents, in corners, I have seem many of those individuals, given they have a speed that others can/did get through the corners, react poorly/inappropriately for the physics of the bike:

suddenly slowing off throttle - raises the bike up straighter - decreasing lean and turning ability, takes weight off front tire decreasing handling (lean stability), and forces a wider turn

suddenly braking - forces more weight onto the front tire and you loose bike 'balance', throws off the bikes turing front tire geometry/lean/turning ability, decreases your directional stability (rear tire is direction/rear tire has less weight), makes front heavier so carving/leaning into the turn is more difficult/heavier/less predictable

there are more as well, but I can't recall them right now.

From many of the accidents I have heard about, so many seem to have some things in common:

perceived excess speed going into a corner, thinking the bike is going wide

the need to scrub speed (rather than lean more)

let off throttle, causing bike to straighten some and throwing the weight to the rear, as well as braking which straightens up bike as well, all contributing to wider turns.

One guy I heard about a few years back was in a group, spaced out well, going through a corner, and he scrubbed speed by braking hard and suddenly, straightening up, and going straight off the far side, into a sign post, breaking is lower back and paralyzing him for life.

He said he did not know what happened, but as he described what details he knew, his offense to his excess speed all lead to braking hard, straightening up, and going wider with the application of (less) lean/bad bike physics.

I am pretty new to this bike physics thing, but counter-steering and lean go together, and I have been trying to tell/train myself that if I have an option of going wider, up straighter, or wider and having more lean, I have been trying the more lean angle. The only time I have been at 'max' lean intentionally has been at Willowsprings. I recall someone, some years back, saying to practice scraping your pegs (lowest lean) so you can get use to it and not be afraid to do it when you need it.

I think that was sound advice.

* Last updated by: JDC on 11/22/2009 @ 2:13 PM *

I recall someone, some years back, saying to practice scraping your pegs (lowest lean) so you can get use to it and not be afraid to do it when you need it.

I think that was sound advice.

It is sound advice. For most people the first time the pegs touch down their instinct is to roll of the gas and stand the bike up. Once they find out it isn't that big of a deal they are usually okay with it. Manufacturers put the feelers on the bottom of the pegs for a reason. Use them.

perceived excess speed going into a corner, thinking the bike is going wide
the need to scrub speed (rather than lean more)

I think the key word here is "perceived." I hav e found that In many cases I can overcome the perception and flow into the turn without scrubbing a lot of speed. (Unless it's right after a long straightaway.) You get the weight back onto the front by accelerating or downshifting . I also find that I'm usually not going as fast as I thought I was, after the initial little moment of concern.
You can dump your speed way before getting to the turn. Then accelerate through the turn. Start conservative and progressively get faster. Soon you'll be ready for trail braking.
Trust your perriferial vision as you focus way down the road and your perception of speed will change.

Someone above said these are tactics for the track.One HUGE difference is those guys that ride track-they've studied the curves-have their turn-in markers set,their brake points set-and they pretty much KNOW what to expect from the conditions.We all don't have that option necessarily.They don't need to wonder"what will I do "IF" ....that cage pulls in front of me,or whatever along those lines.We're SUPPOSED to be doing the speed limit-which in virtually each crash-the guy "probably" wasn't.(excepting left turners in front of ya-or those kinds of crashes).I don't ride like a hellion on roads I don't know.Period.The places I do go which allow me "higher" speeds-are pretty much built well enough to allow deep cornering and corrections during turns without too much drama.My biggest "fear" is that someone will cross over into my lane-that occurs up here kinda often-though I've not had it happen to me (yet).Lots of people up here drinking,and then getting behind the wheel and not realizing they aren't stayin in their lane kinda stuff.Cutting the apex short happens with these people.I ride on the outside part of the lane-closest to the shoulder(but giving myself enough room to stay clear of the edge there,riding in the right tire track).Feels the safest to me.Some guys I've rode with just love to hug the center line.I RARELY get that far over,ONLY when making a left hander and the road ahead is clear.Honestly-I don't run at the speed limit very often-except when I'm cruising on the straights or following the posted limits through towns and such.I do ride civilly when following or moving along with traffic. It's very important IMO to know the road you're running.I can only go "fast" on those I've ridden LOTS of times.It's a dangerous sport we've got-a lot can happen in a heartbeat.Learning to lean and ride these bikes the way they beg to be ridden is the whole deal-I love deep leans and "S's".All that good stuff.I believe the same "track" way to ride is the safest way.From guys who know what they're doing.The 14 isn't a 10, or a 6.But like Heathun said-pitch er in,she'll turn!Ya-what a blast!!!!

* Last updated by: blue07 on 11/28/2009 @ 11:39 PM *

I guess I sound like I'm talking about track riding on the street but I'm not. I just want to take the roads I have and ride with grace and proficiency. I'm not trying to go as fast as I can, but you need enough speed to create good centrifugal force to keep it flowing. An example would be...I like to take a corner at 10-20 MPH more than the posted suggested speed. A 30 MPH yellow sign means it probably feels good at 50 MPH, but doesn't feel like you're pushing limits. Even on the roads I'm familiar with those yellow signs are my marker re speed into a corner. I like speed but not for the sake of speed. I like speed for feeling power with control.
It's been years since I got a speeding ticket. (Mostly luck I think.)

Blue, it sounds like there must be a lot of "Good 'ol boys" around where you live? LOL

* Last updated by: Sharkey on 11/27/2009 @ 5:11 PM *

Hey Sharkey-nah,not really(the good ole boys).I've found that if the sign is posted(for a curve)at say-45 mph,I can "safely" take er at 80.Probably much faster,but I don't like feeling like my bike is TAKING ME FOR A RIDE!!!My bike does very well gripwise and handlingwise to allow me to go at a pretty good clip through curves and such.Typically,at any given limit-I find that at least twice as much feels okay.Now I wouldn't just DO that "automatically".It all depends on how things are-the road-traffic,how I'm feeling.But usually ya-I can look down at my speedo and I'm generally twice the posted limit,without "planning" to be."good ole boys"-oh,you mean the drunk drivers?Ya-bunches of those here.Easy for em to disappear into the surrounding woods and such and drink(lots of senior cits here too that spend WAY too much time in the casinos-drinking).The police and sheriffs and highway patrol are way over stretched here.Although I generally will see at least ONE highway patrol during any given ride.They will let ya get by at 80.Sometimes.Usually.But I've been stopped at 81.Ya-got a ticket as well(sheeesh).They have those new clear light bars-very low profile-look JUST LIKE A SKI RACK on there.Talk about heart attack!.Come blastin around one of your favorite curves-boom-cage with a ski rack on there-dark colored car,Chevy Impala-ya-that'll put a jolt through ya fer sure!!!Ruins yer line.Bunch o' those Impalas up here as well.Audis and Beemers and some of the new toyotas-look just like Highway Patrol at first glance.There is lots of speeding up here-this used to be a no-limit daytime state.Hasn't been that way for several years though(BUMMER).Sometimes I've pulled behind a guy in a truck who's blastin along at 90,100.Stay back-Plenty back,but use him for the point man.If ya stay in the right spot behind em,you won't get hit with the radar.Plus you know-90,100...feels nice for "just cruisin".Other times I've had oncoming Highway Patrol flash their brights at me-just to remind me-ya-It's cool(at those times I'm at the TOP of the limit).I wave at EVERY Highway Patrol.Nice to NOT get a ticket!!!(wonder if they can site ya for takin yer hands off the bars?LOL).HHmmmmmmmm.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 11/27/2009 @ 6:28 PM *

85 MPH? Makes me feel like a lightweight! That's probably why I still have 1/2" chicken strips on my new tires after a week.
The roads around here are pretty narrow. You need to have the wheels out by the fog line so your head woln't be in incoming traffic. Lots of blind curves too. There's been 3 Black Bears killed (by cars) around here in the last 3 weeks. And the deer go down daily. The one highway, which is pretty straight, has about 12 deaths a year. Usually drunk, or senior, or both. The Highway Patrol has a revolving speed trap on that highway. There are back roads that parallel the highway with lots of curves, which are essentially unpatrolled. Guess which road I take?

Yes, the techniques I've read and put here are for the street and track, as well. They are the 'physics' of the motorcycle and curves, blended with the rider knowing the physics, and not fighting the bike. Far reach down the visual field, like Sharkey shared, along with refining the bikes physics-dynamics/counter steer touch, by the rider, etc, make for much safer riding, and a safer rider.

* Last updated by: JDC on 11/28/2009 @ 7:53 PM *