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Thread: ZX went BOOM

Created on: 06/06/13 07:35 AM

Replies: 91

sickninja


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Location: Oklahoma

Joined: 11/02/12

Posts: 289

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/20/13 3:33 PM

Very well put Grn, I agree with you 100%. I think this will get handled just fine in the end. Good luck Aegis!! I hope you get your baby back soon and the way you want it. Sick



14 NATION
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Predator Race Team #69
2012 Kawasaki ZX14R (Hot DAMN!!)
2013 Yamaha R1 (Track Bike)
2014 BMW HP4 (Another hot DAMN!!)
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hagrid


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Location: pittsburgh

Joined: 02/16/12

Posts: 2212

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/20/13 8:21 PM

Hub makes a good point (circuitously, as per usual). I would demand every part listed as replacement or one time use only, be ordered and... replaced. And, after all is said and done, hold a document listing EVERYTHING the dealer ordered and KHI sent.


Everything.



Yoshis!! GO NINJEE!!!

Fat chicks at Wal-Mart: NOT RECOMMENDED

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rod442


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Joined: 05/01/12

Posts: 467

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/21/13 1:10 AM

Glad to hear your getting some positive results. Here's to it being a painless rebuild, and a quick turnaround.

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aegisranger


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Location:

Western Pennsylvania

Joined: 04/03/13

Posts: 192

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/21/13 7:07 AM

I think you're right, Grn. After talking to the Kawasaki rep, I know that I'll get my bike back and it will be almost as good as new. I didn't know that people withing Kawasaki were taking any action, but they were. Things were happening behind the scenes, and if customer service had told me that I would have been MUCH more patient.

Hub makes an excellent point, and the Kawasaki rep discussed all of that with me. In the event of a rebuild, anything questionable will be replaced with new.

I'm happy with the way things are going and I'm confident that Kawasaki and my dealer are doing things right.



After 3 seconds of full throttle, everything else on the road becomes 'Oncoming Traffic'...
1991 Suz VX800(project), 1986 Suz Savage (daughter's bike), 2001 Ducati 748, 2007 Honda VFR800, 2015 Kawasaki ZX14R, 1987 Buick Grand National, 2013 Subaru BRZ

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jdw8xb



Joined: 02/21/13

Posts: 42

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/21/13 7:21 AM

Where is this video of Gadson blowing up a 14R?

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carabuser


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Joined: 09/05/12

Posts: 1731

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/21/13 8:25 AM

mebgardner,

My family and I were going down the freeway minding our own business, when some kids decided to take their grandmas car for a joyride (they didnt have a license) well they get on the onramp of the freeway (and it had been raining that day) and they skid out and do a 180 and hit us head on, my son was a baby then, turns out the grandma didnt have insurance either (surprise) anyway the insurance would not total it, my attorney looked over the policy and said they have the right to fix it if the want, it was a new 99 nissan maxima SE known for being a reliable car, our inlaws have one and they got over 200,000 miles on it with little or no trouble, our's on the other hand has been nothing but trouble, (I went out of my way to get one built in japan) just about everything that could go out, has and ours to this day has less than 90,000 miles on it.

My mechanic said that he could not prove that the accident is the reason for all the problems, but he thinks that is the reason, my theory, rebuilt is never as good as new, UNLESS you have every single part replaced by a higher performance one, by someone that really knows what they are doing ...


* Last updated by: carabuser on 6/21/2013 @ 8:27 AM *



2012 ZX 14R, Cblast ECU Flash, (RECOMENDED !!!!) 2 Brother slipons, ZG marc 1 windscreen, yosh fender eliminator, Pazzo Levers, Powerbronze hugger, heli bars, competition werks footpegs, Throttlemeister Cruise Control, CF Heel Guards,

Predator Race Team #14
Hayabusa
1980 GS 1100
1978 GS 550
1968 CL 350
1972 TS 90
RM 125, YZ 250, CR 500. Taco 22 LOL !

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,
the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy,
its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.."
Winston Churchill

'The trouble with Progressive's is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.' - Paraphrase of R.R.

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Grn14


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Location: Montana

Joined: 02/25/09

Posts: 15511

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/21/13 9:29 AM

Well...you're right...he didn't blow his motor..he blew his bodywork off...sorry...I didn't catch that part or misinterpreted what I was seeing.I just thought his motor blew the plastic off...sorry.


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 6/21/2013 @ 9:31 AM *

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aegisranger


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Location:

Western Pennsylvania

Joined: 04/03/13

Posts: 192

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/27/13 7:37 AM

Latest update-
I received an e-mail from the Kawasaki Field Service Advisor that my new engine should arrive at my dealer tomorrow. I’ll be calling them to find out what their schedule is to get the new engine installed. So it looks like I won’t miss the whole summer of riding!

Since the Field Service Advisor has been involved, I’ve been confident that my dealer was going to get the parts and support that they needed. Although I’m confident that my dealer would have done a fine job with a rebuild, having a replacement engine makes it so much easier.

Here are some pics of the blown engine...


* Last updated by: aegisranger on 6/27/2013 @ 7:39 AM *



After 3 seconds of full throttle, everything else on the road becomes 'Oncoming Traffic'...
1991 Suz VX800(project), 1986 Suz Savage (daughter's bike), 2001 Ducati 748, 2007 Honda VFR800, 2015 Kawasaki ZX14R, 1987 Buick Grand National, 2013 Subaru BRZ

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Grn14


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Location: Montana

Joined: 02/25/09

Posts: 15511

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/27/13 7:41 AM

Geez...no thanks on rebuilding that deal....Glad yer getting a complete new motor....you should....happy for ya;)

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carabuser


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Joined: 09/05/12

Posts: 1731

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/27/13 6:29 PM

Glad to hear you are getting a new engine, I knew they could find one if they tried hard enough !

Just curious, was that the #3 rod ?



2012 ZX 14R, Cblast ECU Flash, (RECOMENDED !!!!) 2 Brother slipons, ZG marc 1 windscreen, yosh fender eliminator, Pazzo Levers, Powerbronze hugger, heli bars, competition werks footpegs, Throttlemeister Cruise Control, CF Heel Guards,

Predator Race Team #14
Hayabusa
1980 GS 1100
1978 GS 550
1968 CL 350
1972 TS 90
RM 125, YZ 250, CR 500. Taco 22 LOL !

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,
the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy,
its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.."
Winston Churchill

'The trouble with Progressive's is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.' - Paraphrase of R.R.

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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

Joined: 02/13/09

Posts: 5926

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/27/13 8:47 PM

Glad to hear you are getting a new engine

2nd

was that the #3 rod ?

Any more pictures? Takes allot of heat to make those colors. Oiling issues. Shhhhh, it's a secret.

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Wolfman



Joined: 03/29/13

Posts: 6714

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/27/13 10:30 PM

Great news, back on your feet!!!!

Romans missed you at Bike night Brotha!

Hung out with Darryle a bit!

W







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omega2k


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Location: Dayton Ohio

Joined: 10/11/12

Posts: 571

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/28/13 1:35 PM

Grats man... that is great news!

BTW, that damage is crazy!



2012 ZX14r / 2002 VTX 1800c
_______________
Intelligence Has a Price...
I Sure Wish Everyone Could Afford It.
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hagrid


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Location: pittsburgh

Joined: 02/16/12

Posts: 2212

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/28/13 2:01 PM

If its an "oiling issue" then the rest of the big end bearings will be in similar shape, yes?



Yoshis!! GO NINJEE!!!

Fat chicks at Wal-Mart: NOT RECOMMENDED

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Grn14


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Location: Montana

Joined: 02/25/09

Posts: 15511

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/28/13 5:30 PM

Maybe not?It seized up,right?Just that one.Scarey.


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 6/28/2013 @ 5:32 PM *

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13801

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/28/13 6:33 PM

Hey 1bad, call the rpm.



Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

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hagrid


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Location: pittsburgh

Joined: 02/16/12

Posts: 2212

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/28/13 8:09 PM

That's the thing, Montana. The exhaust from the crank main bearing feeds the twisted mess in that picture. When's the last time we heard of a main bearing running dry?

More to the point: explain how we oil starve just ONE big end bearing.

No knock prior to BOOM?


Someone is skipping details.



Yoshis!! GO NINJEE!!!

Fat chicks at Wal-Mart: NOT RECOMMENDED

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Grn14


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Location: Montana

Joined: 02/25/09

Posts: 15511

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/28/13 10:09 PM

I guess it must be possible...this one went.That bearing got super hot...that shit's melted some of it.It could do that in a second or so?Surely someone has a theory about this here.Wish they'd speak up.I don't know anything really about the oil flow in there...what do YOU think happened with it?Isn't this that part that we hear about 'guys blowing their motors"...?The #3 or whatever?How does that happen?


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 6/28/2013 @ 10:11 PM *

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13801

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/28/13 10:15 PM

Grn, study the parts. Think rpm speed. How fast was that rpm before boom?



Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

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Grn14


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Location: Montana

Joined: 02/25/09

Posts: 15511

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/28/13 10:22 PM

He said...6th gear at 70 mph....and added throttle...he said it just went boom...that doesn't say much really about his rpm at that moment.If it happened as fast as he remembers...then the rpms were probably not that extreme yet.IF that's what really caused it.Maybe it was just ready to blow...that rpm change pushed it over the top so to speak.May not have had to been much at all.


Could that bearing turn blue like that over time?Or would that have to be a quick action?


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 6/28/2013 @ 10:24 PM *

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fatsix


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Location: South Jersey

Joined: 02/10/11

Posts: 568

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/29/13 5:49 AM

Or that main bearing was setup too tight. Need more disassembly. Looks like an oiling issue with high rpm. That bearing got hot! I'd like to see what the crank looks like, both rod an main journals.


* Last updated by: fatsix on 6/29/2013 @ 5:54 AM *




2012 ZX14R CSB


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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13801

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/29/13 8:18 AM

My deal is, I start the bike and off I go before the starter motor stops. That oil pump ratio happens fast to turn the oil pressure light out. The manual says to let the oil get to every part of the engine before moving. I had to laugh as I take off on a cold bike every time I throw a leg over it.

Poor design my ass. Oh, it's the oil then. HA! I mixed so much shit between bikes, all sorts of combos went in it so I could deliberately blow it up [cough] due to cold oil in the engine running thru it? You need this oil for the engine to survive is... my ass again.

I'm going to believe the throttle kick, the rod kicks out the case, the speed mentioned. Maybe, just maybe the noise was just too late to the ear? A knock would happen fast, but it would still have to knock, unless that fairing and rubber cover kept things quiet?



Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

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hagrid


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Location: pittsburgh

Joined: 02/16/12

Posts: 2212

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/29/13 4:18 PM

Keeping things quiet? When I lugged mine, it told me in no uncertain terms... that's how I ended up here.

Now I know better... stab down twice before the hand.



Yoshis!! GO NINJEE!!!

Fat chicks at Wal-Mart: NOT RECOMMENDED

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Hub


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Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13801

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/29/13 5:34 PM

I think you had a bad build? That was my MO from day one. That's 3 bikes [14's] with the same habit. Mine should have let go with the '08. All that happened to mine was hearing ign [knock a lot] because of the low octane used.



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Romans


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Location: Toronto,ON

Joined: 02/13/09

Posts: 5926

RE: ZX went BOOM
06/29/13 7:18 PM

Article Rob linked was a good read.


Westech Discussion
Oil-related failures of ZX-11s


We have offered oil bypass systems since 1994, and have made these observations over the last five years. Initially our system added an external #8 line and fed oil directly to the #3 bearing. While this system worked, it was a little difficult for some owners to install. It required a little filing of the inside cases and fitting a single standtube between the oil pan and the crank assembly. The filing was a little messy and getting the standtube fitted properly could be trying. The external line was also a hassle to work around when changing the oil.
We spent a winter measuring the oil flow, pressure and volume, of a stock bike with stock pan etc., and the same bike with our external bypass system. The results? Flow of our external bypass oiling system was up 25% in volume to the big end at the same pressure level. We then worked through some different configurations and came up with an internal modification (to the 'J' tube, 'I' tube and oilpan) that increased the flow the exact same amount…25%. The internal 'bypass' (it actually isn't a bypass but that's how we refer to it) is easier to install and servicing the oil filter is the same as stock. We immediately offered this kit and guess what? Most everyone was skeptical and wanted the old 'proven kit'. Well, it's been a couple of years now and the new system is proving just as reliable as the external system. We do have several shops that insist on using the older system and we just smile and give them what they want. But I want to make it known right here, right now: both the internal and external bypass kits increase the flow the same amount. As far as the engine is concerned either kit does exactly the same thing…increase the quantity of oil available to the big end.

Now as to what causes these failures: we have studied dozens and dozens of pans (with their J and I tubes). Of the pans that came from engines that had lost the #3 rod all but two had some sort of obvious restriction compared to most of the others that came from non-blown up engines. Most of these restrictions weren't significant…although several had quite a large ball of brass in the area where the fittings are joined to the tubes. It now appears that if the oiling system is at all marginal, for whatever reason or reasons this added restriction is enough to allow for the oil starvation and ultimately the rod failure. Quite a few shops have their own special cure, i.e. (listed from most used to least used 'cures'), switch to the most expensive synthetic oil, add every oil additive that they can find, increase the oil pressure, block off/remove the balancer shaft assembly, add a bypass system. Oil related failures generally show up in the #3 bearing.

The only other consistent oil related failure shows up on the cam. If you've had an oil related cam failure you can rest assured that you're bottom end is getting plenty of oil. To put it another way, if the oil supply to your bottom end is impaired the #3 bearing is going to fail much quicker than a camshaft, so if your camshaft failed the odds are excellent that your bottom end is okay. We've talked with hundreds of ZX11 owners that have tens of thousands of miles on their bikes. We have to believe that since there are so many totally stock engines with many thousands of miles on them, ridden by riders who are totally abusive to their equipment, that if the engine is manufactured at or near its proposed design tolerances the stock oiling system is adequate. When the tolerances are off a little (remember that at some point all it takes is one more straw to break the camel's back) the #3 rod is very susceptible to an oil related failure. The effect of increasing the oil pressure might be enough hedge to handle the potential for oil starvation, but by increasing the oil pressure the engine will be using more power to turn the pump and that means less available horsepower to you. Eliminating the balancer shaft assembly will increase the initial volume of oil to the #3 bearing and the engine will rev quicker. If your crank isn't well balanced you'll notice an increased vibration level and in some extreme situations these vibration levels will cause a catastrophic engine failure.

It's not wise to eliminate the balancer shaft unless the crank assembly can be balanced by a professional shop. Falacon has been doing it for years and they know their business. Synthetic oil / filter changes at least every 2,000 miles will also give your engine a fighting chance.

So many choices, but what to do? If your engine is a candidate for an oil bypass system then an oil bypass system is the most reasonable and economical solution. How can you tell? Well, if your bike was manufactured after 4/97 you probably don't need the system. To date we haven't heard from anyone with a mid '97 or later bike that has lost #3. UPDATE-SEE BELOW! If you are the original owner, have at least a few (2 to 3) thousand miles on the engine and aren't planning to change your riding habits, drop the oil pan. Pop off the lower #3 bearing cap and inspect it. If the bearing appears new without any wear marks you can breathe a big sigh of relief. Bolt it back together, retorque the bearing cap and keep taking care of the engine. If there is just a tiny indentation on the bottom of the bearing surface, but no scuffing you would be wise to at least replace that bearing and install an oil by-pass kit. If the bearing appears damaged, you have problems and you had better fix them now before your engine blows up.

This table compares modification options:

Modification
Effective change
Pros
Cons

Oil by-pass system

internal
Increases oil flow to crank assembly
Can overcome build quality restrictions
Costs money.

Oil by-pass system

external
Increases oil flow to crank assembly
Can overcome build quality restrictions
Costs money.

More difficult to install than internal. Oil changes a little messy.

Increase oil pressure
Increases pressure throughout the system
Oil flows more quickly to all orifices, surfaces
More oil pressure costs engine HP. May increase aeration, lessening the films lubricating qualities

Remove balance shaft assembly
Increases initial flow to lower end
If done properly will increase engine response and probably increase oil flow enough to handle most #3 oil flow problems.
If crankshaft isn't very close to target balance values the engine may vibrate itself apart.

Synthetic oil
Cooler running, better lubricating qualities.
Is a good way to add durability to an engine.
If used as a Band-Aid for a compromised oiling system may or may not give enough of a safety margin.

Oil additives
Made to enhance oil qualities
In certain situations can add that little extra protection that is needed.
Generally doesn't do much, if anything to enhance top quality synthetic oil.


If you're on a tight budget and can't afford an oil bypass system you can improve your oiling system a little by carefully honing the 'I' tubes internal fittings. Make sure that after honing you use a round deburring tool to radius the inside joint areas of the tube and fitting. Be careful not to remove too much material or you will have to rebraize the fittings Although this isn't the major restriction in the system, the removal of this material will allow the oil to flow a little move smoothly. This in turn reduces the potential for aeration.

The 'J' tube presents the biggest restriction. At Westech we have a special fitting manufactured and tig welded in a jig to the customer's 'J' tube; the pan is then honed to accept this fitting and we hone/debur the 'I' tube. We offer this modification service for $274.95. Our general turn-around time is 5 days but if you are in dire need we can and will process the pan within 48 hours.

Here are some useful contacts and links:

Falicon Performance 813-797-2468 - Crankshaft rebuilding and repairing

Oil Ratings: Motorcycle Consumer News: http://www.mcnews.com - You can read the original tests, February, 1994, updated August, 1998.

We hope this information has been helpful to you.

UPDATE, July 2001
Over the past year we have been seeing an alarming amount of 1997 and later ZX11s with oil related engine failures. Our educated guess as to why these failures are starting to show up has to do with engine wear. As an engine begins to wear, all clearances increase. Apparently the ZX11 oiling system (even with Kawasaki's attempts to 'help' the situation) is marginal, period. So....although we aren't looking to scare owners of late models....it appears as if the oil by pass mod should be done to all ZX11s regardless of manufacturing date.

UPDATE, April 2002
Due to a lack of demand, we are no longer offering the external by-pass. The internal by-pass offers the same advantage as the external by-pass and is easier to install and offers a stock external appearance when installed.


* Last updated by: Romans on 6/29/2013 @ 7:25 PM *

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