I was always told that when you add a pipe and air filter you need a power commander because it leans the bike out too much and that they are already running lean from the factory. From looking at the maps for the 14 most are leaner than the factory map. Wouldnt you want the map to be richer to make up for the lean state of the motor. I checked the stock map for flies out only and it was a lot richer over the whole rpm range, you add a pipe and they go to mostly leaner ove rthe whole rpm range. Why is this.

My bike has a noticeable stumble between 2-3k rpms. The map is very lean through there. Would richening it up lessen the surging? I copied a map that is totally different than mine through 2-3k rpms and pasted that rpm range. It is now running a good bit richer there now than way lean but I havent installed it yet. Would that help it out?

Here, I have a dyno line with an '08 A/F ratio at a belly rich 12:1 ratio at your 2 to 3 thousand rpm range.
With the alternative ECU, the A/F ratio leans out to a higher 13:1 ratio. Both fuel trims then follow basically the same fuel trim line as the other ECU.

We have two fuel maps out of two different ECU's. One is fuel related on the rich/lean, however, when altering air as a restrictor, not fuel as a restrictor, one is going to enter the cylinder faster and that will be the air flow sooner in the cylinder when at overlap (both valves are open) will have an A/F ratio change by the faster or less restrictive was that flow.

Back to the belly rich/lean rounds, they set that rich setting down to a leaner setting down to a 14:1 cruise lean ratio, once you have 6th in gear and moving at that 2 to 3 thousand rpm range; it is set safe lean to run at the best mpg, not best HP.

And when the bike's A/F ratio line drifts to the richer 10:1/11:1 ratios, this is part of slowing the bike down to 186, not give it a better flow ratio all the way up the power band. So to get that ideal 13:1 dyno line aim you see after a map is made, they trend that line so the power is constant up the A/F scale, the faster air that caused the slight lean are due to the less restricting air at the filter pleat gaps, and then at the exhaust pipe, where there is more flow and that air bubble in the cylinder that was packed can flow faster out of a restricted end is now having the same intake event happen a tad quicker too.

Air moves faster than liquid, so that flow has to be compensated, you altered the speed of air entering. You then set the injector to cycle it's duty a grid block or two sooner, so you are back to matching the theoretical air flow that has caused an increase in the event going in. One stroke out of 4 is called the intake stroke and that one flow being altered as in normally aspirated [sucks in air] or turbo charged that [pushes the air in] waiting in back of the valve to open, has the fan blade ability to hold the air from backing out. The N/A has a slight leeway, but forcing air is a [hole] different tune.

Yes, there is a slight window you do no climb out of or raise that window any higher/lower or you are right back to having a rich stumble dropping on it's face just as it will with a lean drop and that drop of fuel removed, will drop your shoulders forward on the lag, which is at that lean area. This is where I have to pull off to the side of the road, roll my pot screws back down, because that stumble was severe enough on the accel pump to cause a stumble as you are describing. I know the rich/lean stumble feeling trying to dial out that lag. The pot style is NOT the correct fuel cutter for this application. It will add fuel from the stock base fuel trim, is not able to work the fuel tables, since the fat/rich will follow the same line the ECU draws. The PC is the better unit to move the fuel line trim at those rich/lean rpm stumble area(s) more toward the correct A/F ratio or 'best performance trim line' for your configuration of pipe and pleat.

* Last updated by: Hub on 7/28/2010 @ 8:32 AM *

My bike has a noticeable stumble between 2-3k rpms. The map is very lean through there. Would richening it up lessen the surging? I copied a map that is totally different than mine through 2-3k rpms and pasted that rpm range. It is now running a good bit richer there now than way lean but I havent installed it yet. Would that help it out?

Only you will be able to tell us this. Try it. Let black smoke be your guide.

The PC is the better unit to move the fuel line trim at those rich/lean rpm stumble area(s)

The area in question is from 2-3k. Use the map of your choice and make the 2-3 area ALL zeros. This will let your bike run the stock ECUsettings. If the stumble improves and changes in the RPM range you will know if richer was better OR if made any diff at all. Now change that same area to +5s and see if stumbles with black smoke = to rich, work you way up then down find her sweet spot. Zeros is a perfect place to start. Play with it. I hope this helps. Cheers.

Make sure you reset throttle points when bike is warmed up.

Helps a lot. Thanks.

I took your advise Roman and zeroed it out in that rpm range. No black smoke and after a 35 mile ride to work this morning, no more surging either.
I still dont understand my first question though. Why was it so lean in the first place.

My bike has a noticeable stumble between 2-3k rpms. The map is very lean through there.

Is this with a map or stock you are looking at? Someone (-) the 2-3 rpm range, you zero out to stock and the stumble goes away? Is that how you can't figure it out as I am trying to figure out how a stumble suddenly disappears?

Segway this way: Call that 2-3 rpm range as a cruise range. That belly drop, you see any 14 stock A/F ratio line, you wave to the gas pumps as you ride by. That runs a lean/clean 15/16:1 if you watch the fuel being played out; if you are hooked up an 02 sensor like I have on my bike. You can see you are cruising in between that 2-3 range and she is in the belly, running as lean and clean for max mpg.

Say that preset is there not for emissions, but for your cruising wallet pleasure. We have all the emissions taken care of way over the top with the cats, the trim, the PAIR, the lift with fuel shutting off going back to idle. You could not shut off a carb on lift at any moment shut the fuel off like the injector can, when it is programmed the way they have it in the generic.

You watch the A/F at 2-3 range, she runs cool. She runs a lot leaner there. I come back from a loop, pour in said amounts, and WOW, what a difference between loop runs. So, what you did, was add fuel to that area. IF, you propel well, that means less turn at the throttle more power in. That is one tune aiming for better or at least a decent mile per gallon-if you can get it.

The next combination, the richer propel, you feel a smoother, less abrupt throttle response, correct? You now can be out of that window of smooth, run into over-smooth, feed too much fuel, run way off on the mileage > from the last map to this map or whatever (+/-) at the trim blocks.

Really, there is not much more fuel needed we street up. Look, if this thing out of the box acts like an RR, or anything that is the world's fastest in stock trim, it can go either way you sway from stock. Take that one air cleaner change you lose HP. Same will happen you think a fatter trim is going to get you higher in hp is the same air cleaner pleat that says try and beat this. The air cleaner alone just lost ground under your assfactor you can't feel. But on a meter like a dyno? You Bet! 1/4 hp, half a horse, no horse changed to shit instead and lost HP in one block (+/-).

You can blow away the comp with 'A TRIM' or you are a back-marker with something way over the phone rich, it is about to waste a set of plugs! You clue be on the ragged edge of stumble rich no smoke. This is not a guessing game over the phone but a snowflake of a chance you bring that shit to the line to make a go at a race and the big boys will swoop down on you. Fat chance in the streets too you look the part.

Hub, My myman I am reaching out to you, need some help with modifing my Beast. I need to get in touch with you. How?

Hub all gone.........

Hub went back down the rabbit hole to where he has a seat at the table with the March Hare.

But I found out there is a sand pounder down there to. So UP I came for some Romp Riding. Basic Tuneup warmed over:

1. Stock air cleaner - Remove steel backing = Smoothing effect.
2. Sync throttle body - As per manual. Or find video for sequence smoothing.
3. Wire open sub-system - Remove actuator connector at throttle body housing's main wire harness = Will code the dash and you are screwed getting back to a normal dash face.
4. Remove sub-system completely - Compton/wrongway = Came up with a loophole to shut down the code.
5. Mild port cleaning or matching rubber boots to port wall.
6. Mild cam with stock valve springs or step up to stronger springs so valve float is minimal at higher rpms.
7. Bore - Brings some torque along.
8. Stroke - Lets more fuel keep firing as a longer rod kind of retards or waits to come around on the crank turn before heading down is that fulcrum advantage.
9. Add a fuel enhancer for more power.
10. Replace pipe with a better less restrictive flow.

WOT did I miss?

1. growth or exploitation (r): where the ambient is air expanding or air contracting in the exploitation of so many atoms cc'd = (X<-)VE.
2. conservation (K): where that is all she wrote is inject this much in the most conservative way exploiting 1 atmosphere = 14.7.
3. collapse or release (omega): where trigger is the valve opening, the threshold was the original hot/cold discharged = DTT.
4. reorganization (alpha): where this is overlap and good luck timing the cams reorganizing the gain and loss of the mix = AFR.

I don't see any other way this type system works if it looks that simple putting the pieces together. And then the what not to tamper with is me seeing too many tuning problems and why the house did not catch that years ago or even the ecu-software guy figure that out? It was in the shop manual all this time and "man you will" were/are looking stupid where the Triumph company is peeking in here and has been laughing at this tune for how many years at the water cooler? Like I've been pointing DIS out long ago, but here is this epiphany in the deja vu all over again was a few days ago.

TPS movement: Do not exploit this sensor or driveability issues will occur. The adaptive ECU system maps are fixed to the TPS. Same as saying the crank sensor position is fixed at the crank.

Signed,
The Debrief (tell it like it is)......... [was all deleted)
______________________________________________________________________________

You'd think I'd reach 50 banned sites by now is it's been awhile. They finally threw me off... 'insulting the members' by the infraction and points police. They gave me 3 penalty points like you can't see the tech you're struggling with and I need 3 points for pointing out some dumb clucks flapping their beaks pulling wires and shifting sensors out of range? Where they are still not on the same page as the shop manual? I went right back to the concept of the word/meaning/structure and... oh look! I'm not bragging, I'm more in awe that someone got a hold of the shop manual and read the same abstract that I did and could not come up with how the system works?

For every action there is formula for that reaction. So I 'limit' my fuel for best performance/economy/etc. I am at a 'limit' also for as the compression drops, this still chases the best of the best average for that action/reaction formula.

I am fuel or a fuel loop. So the cam sensor can't be moved is that fixed setting. The crank is fixed. the sub is fixed. Because they are spring loaded and have to be ever so slightly adjusted, they still have to be fixed to the mapping. So the max range was 56 - 62 was to set the TPS to 60. They'd move the TPS to 62, but this learn system would mathematically reset the out of range back to a math'd 60, but the stumbling would be all binary bumbled and still run thru those X to Y intersects.

So the best analogy I can come up with is a stack of cards all squared up is a 3-D map. But this TPS move is like taking a card, a few, a mini pile of cards, pulled out of phase with the stack. The learn brings those all back in line and it takes a 12min run time to let that sort of work out all back to a ROM copied to RAM saved with the days temp change or the last 10minute weather report is the key is off, but the processing is not.

That still says to me that having those cards out of position is more a frequency giving you that stumble in a binary reading. So this more or less bumps off of the memory, the rechecking of the math against the current conditions. And those combined averages is now that 'limit' of parameters taken. It is now the best 'averaged' squirt. The heat produced by the combustion can be measured sort of by this average of the telemetry input and 02 output.

I imagine there is a word like inactive ECU for the 14 and active or adaptive more or less of chasing a pre and post balance of aiming for that middle number to squirt at. Because it's most efficient as to the AC of it, or for every input, there is output measured, so why not exploit that every squirt with the best 10min worth of running input, it's discharging the RAM every ten minute intervals.

Now enter a throttle sync, valve adjust, they just download and ride off, no adapting to the new values created, even the dealer is told to run a 12min learn process after servicing or use the tool to fast-set it with a few clicks. So this learn is more reprocessing the better tune to compliment the new values to accept or reject. It's a fucking mess over there, believe me.

So looking back, I now see there is very little range if none to work with exploiting any sensor. It is more a mute point if not a tuning step to check.

Updating old threads, Hub? I thought I was the only one around here who replied to my own posts.

I looked for the thread title to match the post. Meaning, do not mess with the throttle position it won't help if not detune it... ala these clowns pulling wires and slotting sensors to nowhere. Seems like yesterday but here we are with the same old wire pulls and pipe changes and not one computer bike eats pistons, rods yeah, scored smoking, rattle trap crap is I keep laughing away. What's even funnier is I'll be dead and they will still perpetuate that lean at the pipe move. So I have years to go is blow them out of the tub 3 sentences short of the penis police throwing me off the sites so they can continue the myths.

There's a black conector and a grey conector on the RH side of the T-bodies. Are those the throttle position sensors (must be one for primaries and one for secondaries)? Can you remove those conectors without messing things up?

Look at the stacking of the sensors. Top one is subthrottle. Bottom is throttle position sensor. Yes, mess with either one you look like a triumph owner LOL
The window slot is so narrow, you'd be popping the code light on the dash. That adjustable crank advancer and you're toned out of the mapping window. How can I say map over map in a 3-D sort of square cell over square cell? Take rubik's cube, push out a slot and now see if you can turn the cube? That's the precision of the values to slot is they both dial in at that same 60 number for argument sake. Now the cells are more milliamp compliant and will run up the linear more smoothly by that alone is in unison with each other. The example being, sub matches t-position, or can phase within that single number and phase right back together, follow step for step, you name it. My dick is hard talking about dishithinking it out.

Taking crackass guesses at it all the while.

So look at that X to Y just on both sensors being dialed in before the check engine light says it's out of phase.

* Last updated by: Hub on 3/12/2016 @ 8:25 PM *

Thanks, Hub. I thought I remembered you commenting on disconnecting those. I had that whole throttle bodies wiring harness unfastened for the sync but something was telling me to leave those connectors on the T-bodies alone.

Sub = Ratchets the actuator like it's having a heart attack.
TPS = Knocks, pings, Wot the throttle and it falls on it's face when at speed.
Limp = That's a slow ride to the repair center.

TPS = Goes into method and works off the X (14.7) over and over until TPS comes back on line.
Sub = Ratchets closed If I recall? Still runs faster than an ant. Field mouse? I run for pinks the mouse wins.