Move Close
Welcome to zx14ninjaform.com!

You are not logged in.
New Topic Reply
Next Page

Page: 1

Previous Page

Thread: Flash vs Mod Jewels

Created on: 10/09/13 12:12 PM

Replies: 19

Rook


Rook's Gravatar

Joined: 03/28/09

Posts: 21238

Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/09/13 12:12 PM

So, I'm talking to Grn and he's extolling the virtues of the ECU flash....and I'm wondering to myself, "okay...I know there are some aspects of tuning that can be achieved only through flashing..." There is no module other electronic item that will change the rev limiter, for instance. There is no way to change timing as intricately as it can be changed through flashing.

That is all well and good. If there is no other way to do it, then you have the one and only way it works and you go that rout. ...but if I still need a full array of Dynojet stuff even after I have this awesome map flashed to my ECU, why not just skip the flash and store the awesome map in the PC5 like people been doing for the last 5 years? Is it that I will need to adjust my awesome map from time to time and that is why I need the AutoTune and PC5 + AFR gauge??? Because if it is, I still am not getting the advantage of having your OEM map erased from the ECU and replaced with that which could have been stored in the PC5 (among other maps).

...and that Top Speeed Limiter?? Yeah, we all want toget rid of that. A Bonneville will do the job just fine + it will correct the speedo. The ECU flash will also do both, you say? OK, but what happens when you change sprockets or your tire wares down or you just get a tire with a different hieght? That flashed -7.5% speedoo correction will be way off. So I need to keep my SpeedoHealer or Bonneville on the bike now too so I can adjust the speedo correction that was flashed to my ECU and is no longer accurate?

C'mon fellas. Is it really all that convenient to have a flash instead of the modules?

plus you can't sell your flash if you ever want to get rid of it. You have to spend more money to have the ECU unflashed.

what gives?



08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE ZX-14 Now Deceased, will be resurected 2024 ZX-14R bran friggin NEW!

Link | Top | Bottom

darryle


darryle's Gravatar

Location: ontario

Joined: 02/15/09

Posts: 1185

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/09/13 3:15 PM

Rook if your competing ,LSR or drag racing go for it,taking advantage of a flashed bike on the street will put me in jail.I have noticed smoother torque curves in the low mid range.Also seen some air/fuel ratios that scared me.I am waiting til I can flash and dyno tune at the same time.I believe C-blast had his flashed and dyno tuned at the same time.His torque curve is beautiful.I think his peak hp reads to high,but STD or SAE,happy dyno or not,a dyno is a tuning tool.Talk to C,look at his torque curve



2012 14R,full hindle Evolution ,vortex rear sets,BST's with ceramic bearings,HID's,hyper pro damper and custom map 205.3 hp/120.2 torque

Link | Top | Bottom

darryle


darryle's Gravatar

Location: ontario

Joined: 02/15/09

Posts: 1185

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/09/13 3:50 PM

Nasty I was talking about 17:1



2012 14R,full hindle Evolution ,vortex rear sets,BST's with ceramic bearings,HID's,hyper pro damper and custom map 205.3 hp/120.2 torque

Link | Top | Bottom

nasty


nasty's Gravatar

Location:

University of Okoboji

Joined: 04/13/13

Posts: 1657

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/09/13 3:57 PM

Oh snap! That is starting to get a touch lean!!! I havent seen that one.



2013 Super Fast SE ZX14R
Forever Fearless

“There's a rebel lying deep in my soul. Anytime anybody tells me the trend is such and such, I go the opposite direction. I hate the idea of trends. I hate imitation; I have a reverence for individuality.”
-Clint Eastwood

Link | Top | Bottom

Rook


Rook's Gravatar

Joined: 03/28/09

Posts: 21238

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/09/13 4:58 PM

.I am waiting til I can flash and dyno tune at the same time.I believe C-blast had his flashed and dyno tuned at the same time.His torque curve is beautiful.

Why bother to flash? Just dyno tune and store the map on the PC. I suppose that timing might be adjusted for speed,rpm, throttle opening and gear. That is one thing that can't be done with any module. If that can be done with a flash, I'd say that is worth it all by itself. ...but I think I'd probably just keep my modules for the other things that a flash changes. Is there any actual performance enhancements other than timing that can only be done by a flash?



08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE ZX-14 Now Deceased, will be resurected 2024 ZX-14R bran friggin NEW!

Link | Top | Bottom

nasty


nasty's Gravatar

Location:

University of Okoboji

Joined: 04/13/13

Posts: 1657

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/09/13 5:04 PM

More consistent and smoother fueling. You can still hold more than one map.



2013 Super Fast SE ZX14R
Forever Fearless

“There's a rebel lying deep in my soul. Anytime anybody tells me the trend is such and such, I go the opposite direction. I hate the idea of trends. I hate imitation; I have a reverence for individuality.”
-Clint Eastwood

Link | Top | Bottom

darryle


darryle's Gravatar

Location: ontario

Joined: 02/15/09

Posts: 1185

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/09/13 6:01 PM

A piggy is like a bass mid treble eq, a flash with a good tuner is like a 3rd octave equalizer.I know some excellent tuners when they are comfortable with the Flash/ dyno tune I'm in.till then I"ll live with what I've got



2012 14R,full hindle Evolution ,vortex rear sets,BST's with ceramic bearings,HID's,hyper pro damper and custom map 205.3 hp/120.2 torque

Link | Top | Bottom

1400R


1400R's Gravatar

Location:

Pertheadland Australia

Joined: 07/25/13

Posts: 283

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/09/13 6:14 PM

I have not studied the Gen 1 maps for the 14.
Being able to change the ECU and tell it what to do instead of intercepting the ECU signal then modifying it with an extra tool seems cack handed.
I would much rather tell the ECU what to do than have a PC intercept the signal and then adjust them.
It introduces another possible failure to the system.
How many times have you read around the traps unplug the PC and see if that fixes it.

Being able to adjust your bikes OEM figures and equipment makes much more sense.
Old school tuners in todays market place see and sell PC because its what they know and understand and have spent a lot of time learning.
Any tuner with a good understanding of an ECU editor and the bikes maps with a dyno does not need an Auto Tuner to get the results you want or that can be unlocked.
I see interceptor style equipment as redundant with direct editor access.

The ECU hack tool has been able to eliminate my govt imposed speed limiter and
My factory imposed Safety Maps.
Give me control of the STP's
Give me control of the Ignition.
Give me control of both Fuel Maps.
Allow me to disconnect the factory narrow band.
As the software develops so does the options available.
You find something you need controlled. Ask and the developer's will implement it if possible and widely needed.
Once my hack tool can data log the factory settings then it is my ultimate piece of tuning equipment for my bike.



Get on it....

Link | Top | Bottom

nasty


nasty's Gravatar

Location:

University of Okoboji

Joined: 04/13/13

Posts: 1657

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/09/13 7:00 PM

Basically as is stock this bike will run 14.7:1 no matter where you are in the world, even with full exhaust it should still run very close to that number(gen2 fo sho). Flashing the ecu using a dyno to tune the afr and power you want and it should run that afr no matter where you are in the world. PC needs to be tuned in the primary location of use because the ecu is always changing its numbers, PC will always add or subtract the same amount of time to the signal every time. Her fueling ends up never being as smooth or consistent as telling the ecu what you want.



2013 Super Fast SE ZX14R
Forever Fearless

“There's a rebel lying deep in my soul. Anytime anybody tells me the trend is such and such, I go the opposite direction. I hate the idea of trends. I hate imitation; I have a reverence for individuality.”
-Clint Eastwood

Link | Top | Bottom

Hub


Hub's Gravatar

Joined: 02/05/09

Posts: 13917

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/10/13 1:28 PM

... tuning that can be achieved only through flashing..." There is no module other electronic item that will change the rev limiter, for instance. There is no way to change timing as intricately as it can be changed through flashing.
That right there says the Muzzy advancer turns obsolete. We have a timing map. So that automatically/EE (electronic engineer-ing) times the cam in to the crank. Manually, you physically move the single square wave out of phase with the dual wave of the cam. They both sit 'balanced' in that map.

...but if I still need a full array of Dynojet stuff even after I have this awesome map flashed to my ECU, why not just skip the flash and store the awesome map in the PC5
That analog out the ECU is recaptured by the pc. You can't set the mechanical advance, and then set the pc's timing thinking you can dial in the cam too. See that move? It gets complex.

Is it that I will need to adjust my awesome map from time to time and that is why I need the AutoTune and PC5 + AFR gauge???
Autotune is the AFR gauge. It uses the 02 to learn how to smooth out your performance map for best economy and best performance. The speed of the 02 vs. the gauge is pretty fast. That's the type of 02 they use is the faster model [more wires] for the box of the pc has all that chip stuff in it and the 555 chip clicking off the 1010101 at any speed you put it at. So if you watch the air gauge, it goes on and off via a signal. It turns on and off. Now, if you walk old auto car parts like a primitive PAIR system, it functioned under light loads, like cruising speed. When you stomped it to the floor, you causes a lot of vacuum so now that mechanical door that was flapping with your foot, is now stuck closed. See that move? So vacuum wise on the bike, it's going to feed off of your custom map, shuts down the 02. Physically, you'd think the evolution would mimic the same theory, yes?

So if this autune keeps learning throughout the rpm range, it is going to cause a balance between the two, yes. Say you learn between so many rpm ranges and leaves the others alone. See how your performance map comes back into play? There may be a 3rd variable, I don't know? I'm now inside the ECU and I'm looking for that electrical number in the alchemy of that fuel variable number.

Because if it is, I still am not getting the advantage of having your OEM map erased from the ECU and replaced with that which could have been stored in the PC5 (among other maps).

WATT you are watching is that 'air gap of a signal' you are waiting for. So you take one of my posts is a BG'map. You now try to rewrite it so it makesense. Now you are typing in so many different letters, it's going to readifferenthellikeyougunshoudn'tipseatoethere. And that's when you hear a cry for a different map. So if you don't have the flash right, the cry is, "I need another flash." But you can turn the pc off and have a stock map, yes, no burn... Big advantage when reselling the bike. You present a stock bike. Where are you going? How much reach around do you want to pocket out? It's hard to stop, but you go whole hog, or penny pinch small amounts of power increase no matter how you look at it.

...and that Top Speeed Limiter?? Yeah, we all want to get rid of that. A Bonneville will do the job just fine + it will correct the speedo. The ECU flash will also do both, you say?
No, just one. The bike will unlimit but no speedo reset.

When I played a little with the factory's ECU-kit, it had a sprocket change map. Because it was a racing ECU, so do the tracks change for things like more top end is the front straight, yes, so a map was for this purpose. With this street ECU, it may not have this kind of map? Unless WoolyRacing is still digging for any kind of map or all that is all that showed up are it? I have no clue how/where to look. So all I can do is mention the diff between a racing ECU and why would I need or make a map, if I already have my numbers from the tire diameter down to the crank to clutch ratio and all that math to make this turn this mph if you have this at so many rpm to wheel spin, etc. In other words, it's preset I would imagine. Besides, who gives a fill in the blank when you are not limited. You'll be closed course with a ticket at the end. You want a lap time and average speed? There's math for that too. Are we measuring our dick we need to know how fast we went on the street?

OK, but what happens when you change sprockets or your tire wares down or you just get a tire with a different hieght? That flashed -7.5% speedoo correction will be way off. So I need to keep my SpeedoHealer or Bonneville on the bike now too so I can adjust the speedo correction that was flashed to my ECU and is no longer accurate?
I think that extra wear is factored in. Besides, that speedo is not increment accurate or we'd have a huge gauge to add the mph marks from 0 to 10, 10 to 20mph,etc.

C'mon fellas. Is it really all that convenient to have a flash instead of the modules?

plus you can't sell your flash if you ever want to get rid of it. You have to spend more money to have the ECU unflashed.

Yes and no for convenience. Yes, you have a limiter rpm, limiter mph, ign curve, fuel trim. Then again, no accel enhancer that the pc/pig presents. And of course you can sell both units, or hold on to them for the next bike. Well, you have two options really. One is to send in the ECU twice. The other option is to use that double think money sink and think of buying the unit, you break even. You can go to the pig sites and share maps all over the place, meaning, pig for pig unit. So as far as getting the thing tuned, you can learn to tune it, or download a map and be done with it.

Racing wise we weigh bike for bike, we are even. You install a pig with how many boxes sticking out of it? How many places did you try to hide it is one. Now that you have all that crap off the ECU wire, look at the flash without a wire attached. You begin to add pounds back on the bike... Not convenient looking is it for speedowning is your pig unit.



Tormenting the motorcycling community one post at a time

Link | Top | Bottom

Rook


Rook's Gravatar

Joined: 03/28/09

Posts: 21238

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/10/13 7:27 PM

the Muzzy advancer turns obsolete.

That's right, old technology. You can advance a few or retard a few but with a flash I imagine you can advance part of the powerband and retard another ....or whatever timing you want in endless variations.

You can't set the mechanical advance, and then set the pc's timing thinking you can dial in the cam too. See that move? It gets complex.
Tell me about it. I haven't even touched my PC or Autotune after the firts adjustments were commpleted. Too complicated and too much good riding weather and too many other mods. Tuning took a back burner.

Autotune is the AFR gauge. It uses the 02 to learn how to smooth out your performance map for best economy and best performance
I guess Auto tune is set for a certain target AFR but from what I hear, it takes quite a bit of running before it actually gets the right numbers. Also, it can have a straight 12.0 : 1 AFR across the fuel table but it wont actually run those numbers until you accept the suggested trims. ...so an AFR guage comes in handy for doing the tuning runs where you sample with Autotune. /..at least that is how I understand it ...or something like that.

But you can turn the pc off and have a stock map, yes, no burn... Big advantage when reselling the bike.

Same point I made before... sometimes it is advantageous to have something that you can turn off or adjust.

I think that extra wear is factored in (for speedo correction).

Maybe it is so that you use a median figurer to span a range of possible variables. ...but then when you are at the top or the bottom of the range, that median figure is at its least accurate. Example: Brand new 55 tire, the speedo is dead on at stock setting. Ware that tire down and watch all the cars sail by you when your speedo tells you you are going 60 mph on the freeway...the speedo is off now. Those median numbers don't work under extremes is what I'm saying. I would NOT want to have my speedo correction flashed.

Being able to change the ECU and tell it what to do instead of intercepting the ECU signal then modifying it with an extra tool seems cack handed.
I would much rather tell the ECU what to do than have a PC intercept the signal and then adjust them.

OK i am buying that.


* Last updated by: Rook on 10/10/2013 @ 7:32 PM *



08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE ZX-14 Now Deceased, will be resurected 2024 ZX-14R bran friggin NEW!

Link | Top | Bottom

Cblast


Cblast's Gravatar

Location: Pac Nor

Joined: 03/31/13

Posts: 3507

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/11/13 12:32 AM

After riding almost 3000 miles on my flash I will say it is a quality of power difference. The ecu uses all three in conjunction with each other inside the 'R'. When we piggy back in the fuel numbers, we are takin away the ecu's ability to do its job to its maximum potential. It wasn't designed to have a piggyback spliced in. It was designed as a whole unit to fluctuate fuel, ignition, throttle plate opening, to WORK IN CONCERT along with the wheel speed sensors and air 'density' sensors to provide a certain level of, and quality of, power along with TC as an integral sub-system. We take those maps (fuel/ignition/stp), maximize them and smooth them, and we maximize the potential. Yes, flashes have different 'character'. My flash is aggressive, no doubt. But with a flash, the quality of that aggressive power is easily determined by the competent tuner. We also made it very smooth. Simply by smoothing the differences in the numbers as they sit beside each other. The result: fantastic 'feel' underway with a smoothness and quality to the power delivery that is addicting. TC works better and smoother than stock. Interrupting in a more linear fashion. It relies on those same ignition and fuel maps that we can now smooth out and make 'work together' better. You add a piggyback and the computer cannot reconcile the fuel tables as it was designed to. Not the same quality nor feel. And no PC will ever make a gen II's TC work in a smoother more linear fashion. The mere fact of its plug in fuel map prevents that.
I want to be clear rook, I am not trying to sell you a flash. Just voicing my thoughts on this. I won't have a gen I flash with the fuel tables fixed and no need for a PC even ready for another week yet. Just have not had the time to get with Nels and build it. We are scheduling time next week to tune a gen I 14 (09) flash, and I will be able to offer more insight once we play with that gen I ecu. The Gen II BIKE definitely performs better with no PC messing with what are essentially 'linked' tables in the ecu.


* Last updated by: Cblast on 10/11/2013 @ 12:36 AM *



14 NATION
Disciple of the 14R
Vincit Qui Patitur

Predator Race Team #23 - Priscilla ~ 118.85 ft.lbs. of TORQUE
Call to get CBLASTED • 360-649-8047
PredatorRaceTeam@gmail.com

Link | Top | Bottom

Rook


Rook's Gravatar

Joined: 03/28/09

Posts: 21238

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/11/13 10:05 PM

I may go for a flash some day. Maybe. I will be going Nitrous first though so I will need to tune. Therin lies the problem with flashing...you do new stuff the old flash no longer works and it aint so easy to change it...unless you get your own software!!!



08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE ZX-14 Now Deceased, will be resurected 2024 ZX-14R bran friggin NEW!

Link | Top | Bottom

Cblast


Cblast's Gravatar

Location: Pac Nor

Joined: 03/31/13

Posts: 3507

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/12/13 1:12 AM

See exactly rook. I like the NOS idea too. I think that this bike is a great platform for nos. I ran nos for a while on my busa and it was hella fun. I'm at that point where I want the nos so bad I can sniff it, but I do have some suspension and wheels planned. Another point I like is being able to run dual maps in the ecu and switch over to nos map on the fly. I wish I had more experience with the gen I bike. We had planned to map one a couple of weeks ago but life and projects got in the way. This week is a fer sure on that. But I do want NOS on Priscilla. The more I think about it rook, she handles great, I want laughing gas!


* Last updated by: Cblast on 10/12/2013 @ 4:21 AM *



14 NATION
Disciple of the 14R
Vincit Qui Patitur

Predator Race Team #23 - Priscilla ~ 118.85 ft.lbs. of TORQUE
Call to get CBLASTED • 360-649-8047
PredatorRaceTeam@gmail.com

Link | Top | Bottom

1400R


1400R's Gravatar

Location:

Pertheadland Australia

Joined: 07/25/13

Posts: 283

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/12/13 4:13 AM

get your own flash tool.
your then not limited to one tuner or flash.
you will be able to make small changes yourself.
or sign up and use map share once it takes off.



Get on it....

Link | Top | Bottom

Wolfman



Joined: 03/29/13

Posts: 6714

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/12/13 6:42 AM

I am going to Cflash my bike and pull off the Piggy back. I am thinking I am going to trailer or ride down my green machine to see C. Then the gloves are off and I have had long range test times with both approaches! Thus will write this up!
I do think if C was ready with his flash before I finished my fullsystem PC5 and flash route I would have Cflashed and saved almost 2000. What's that Cher song, "If I could turn back time," actually while there I might have shown up a day or two late to the wedding ceremony. Come to think of it, maybe that dancer when I was 26...


* Last updated by: Wolfman on 10/12/2013 @ 6:43 AM *







Link | Top | Bottom

Cblast


Cblast's Gravatar

Location: Pac Nor

Joined: 03/31/13

Posts: 3507

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/12/13 7:24 PM

I can't wait wolf! Gonna make her sing! The new guy Sweeper has ur set-up almost exactly as far as headers and slips so I am anxiously awaiting his feedback for all concerned!



14 NATION
Disciple of the 14R
Vincit Qui Patitur

Predator Race Team #23 - Priscilla ~ 118.85 ft.lbs. of TORQUE
Call to get CBLASTED • 360-649-8047
PredatorRaceTeam@gmail.com

Link | Top | Bottom

jtemple


jtemple's Gravatar

Joined: 07/07/12

Posts: 470

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/13/13 5:14 PM

I still don't know wth I'm going to do when it's exhaust time.

Link | Top | Bottom

Wolfman



Joined: 03/29/13

Posts: 6714

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/14/13 6:34 AM

When you know, you will know!
W







Link | Top | Bottom

jtemple


jtemple's Gravatar

Joined: 07/07/12

Posts: 470

RE: Flash vs Mod Jewels
10/14/13 1:20 PM

When you know, you will know!


Well played, sir.

Link | Top | Bottom


Welcome to zx14ninjaform.com!
 
New Topic Reply
Next Page

Page: 1

Previous Page

New Post

Please login to post a response.