..i'm sure there have been posts and discussions about this topic, but i didn't feel like searching for them...

...my bike is an 07, little more than 7600 miles...it has a Roaring Toyz 4-2-1 header and megaphone exhaust...the bike pops a lot, and i'm wondering if i'm actually getting all the power and performance i should be getting w/the pipe, etc...thinking of getting the PC5, but i don't know too much about any of that--never added a PC to my other bikes...

...ANY INFO OR SUGGESTIONS?? (and what does AUTOTUNE do?)

Thanks

A decel-pop can help by eliminating the fresh air induction system: by disabling the air sent into the exhaust ports.
A pc5 can help by setting the map from 2,000 rpm to redline. No remapping should be done at 2,000 rpm and down.

A 14 does not need a map change sans the PAIR disable. If you want more power like you tried to change with the exhaust, keep reaching around for the wallet and keep going.

* Last updated by: Wolfman on 8/11/2013 @ 5:32 AM *

..i'm sure there have been posts and discussions about this topic, but i didn't feel like searching for them...

...my bike is an 07, little more than 7600 miles...it has a Roaring Toyz 4-2-1 header and megaphone exhaust...the bike pops a lot,

The PAIR block off Hub speaks of will not totally eliminate the popping but on my 08, it is improved about 33% and more manageable.

and i'm wondering if i'm actually getting all the power and performance i should be getting w/the pipe, etc

(and what does AUTOTUNE do?)

Again, Romans knows about AT self tuning.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/11/2013 @ 5:23 AM *

https://zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=CB3D3987-1372-66AE-3BE3B16BC01CC701

https://zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=BA1AF416-1372-66AE-3B6C85CAF31843E3&page=1&searchTerm=Autotune#10

https://zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=76ACEE5B-D56B-84E2-1B764CEE897851F2&page=1&searchTerm=Autotune#7

you will need an AFR guage as well as an AT if you want to tune properly....so I am told. Have not gotten into it that much yet.

My experience was that running the bike for a couple months before accepting the fuel trims made a small improvement over the map for my yaer and model bike with my mods. The map seems to have been a pretty accurate one. I don't think I ran the bike to redline much?? sorry can't remember but I am sure I was not doing max rpm in 5th 6th gear as is done on a dyno and as I believe Romans recommends for self tuning. The AT smoothed out the throttle response at 3500 rpm that is associated with the flies openning. The surge was almost totally eliminated.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/11/2013 @ 10:56 AM *

For the record, not all aftermarket exhaust setups have the decal pop, I've got an Akrapovic single full system and absolutely NO popping (not a single time, ever). I have a PC5, no flies, TRE, and block off plates.

Ivan did the PC5 map and he said that its not just the block off plates, but also the TRE as the TRE not only removes the timing retard in the lower gears but also stops the bike from cutting off the fuel supply when the throttle is closed.

Side note, pretty happy with his map with a couple of exceptions where I'm thinking of picking up the auto-tune anyways. He wants your idle set to 1600-1900 RPM which is WAAAAY too high for my liking, this means I needed to adjust the "off throttle" voltage to get it "right" to match the map (if you've set a PC5 up you'll know what I mean). This creates a weird/deadish spot between 3,500-4000RPM and at full throttle between 5,000 - 6,500 (I think) there's less power than 3/4 throttle. Otherwise, more power and better millage and no popping or backfiring.

Gas does not cut off: it leans out.
The bike swings to 18 afr all stock and lean popping.
The tre swings to 16.5 afr and that is a lot richer so there is your pop stopper.
The ignition is missing a curve for smoothness, so there is the 10 degrees to full advance without a mid curve or a linear type curve that you could not feel. This way, the tre [limp] set the curve, sets the rich.
Maps are made for accel, not lift.
So when you lift, the intake air pressure is still under rich load on lift. With the even richer lift = Not so much pop.
With a rich map, I wonder if the afr is even richer than 16.5 upon lift? So, see those two events in play? Lift of the hack and lift with a rich map... If... she swings richer than 16.5 afr.

* Last updated by: Hub on 8/13/2013 @ 10:02 PM *

For the record, not all aftermarket exhaust setups have the decal pop, I've got an Akrapovic single full system and absolutely NO popping (not a single time, ever). I have a PC5, no flies, TRE, and block off plates.

The reason you have "absolutely NO popping (not a single time, ever)" is in your post ,,,,,,,

TRE, and block off plates.

TRE not only removes the timing retard in the lower gears but also stops the bike from cutting off the fuel supply when the throttle is closed.

Timing is controlled by RPM only. TRE does nothing with timing. The TRE 006A stops any fuel cut(N). TRE 08 = Faster fly opening (5,6).

Night I had the exact set up you are talking about, see pic. Yep she had a backfire untill TRE006A installed.

Hub, the fuel injectors are actually shut off, not just set to a hyper-lean position but still supplying fuel. I've actually seen this on my car (Chevy Cobalt SS), where the AFT will goto 18:1, the timing advance will go to 0 to -5 degrees, and fuel pressure will steadily increase until a certain RPM is reached (depending on gear, ie, 5th gear will cut fuel until I get to about 1,300RPM, where as in 2nd gear fuel will start to flow at 4,000RPM and in 1st gear there's no fuel cut at all).

I was chatting with Ivan about this, he explained that this has been the case for most fuel injected vehicles since the early 90s (or was it the 80s?). Did a bit of poking around and found...

http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/2006fz1.htm
http://www.fjrowners.com/forums/9-fjr-technical/18361-considering-different-take-abrubt-throttle-response-due-yamaha-fuel-cut-off.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy-efficient_driving#Coasting_or_gliding
http://kc7ekk-solar.blogspot.ca/2011/04/coast-in-neutral-or-in-gear.html

Romans, regarding the TRE, its full name is Timing Retard Eliminator which would suggest it does "adjust" the timing. I know on the Suzuki's (had a friend with a GSXR-1000) there was a separate ignition advance map for gears 1-4, the TRE would "trick" the ECU into thinking it was running in 5th/6th gear all of the time allowing for full spark advance.

Now that being said, we've got better bikes :) I haven't personally watched the ignition maps on a code reader to verify this AND the fact that it did adjust the closed throttle fuel tables was a HUGE surprise to me. So I don't know for a fact that Kawasaki created separate ignition maps for each gear, but it would make sense, especially considering that in stock the secondary throttle plates are used in the lower gears to "smooth" out power delivery, if you are changing the throttle you would need to change the ignition as well.

http://www.gsxr.com/showthread.php?t=1789
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070904021648AAANbql
http://www.ivansperformanceproducts.com/tre.htm
http://pingelonline.com/timing_retard_eliminator.htm]

Hub, the fuel injectors are actually shut off, not just set to a hyper-lean position but still supplying fuel.

I was chatting with Ivan about this, he explained that this has been the case for most fuel injected vehicles since the early 90s (or was it the 80s?). Did a bit of poking around and found...

You know how I was hitting and missing the FI tech, then all of a sudden it's just a bunch of frequency signals that move the maps. So stock lift, there is this 18 AFR when the ECU sees the TPS closed: Notes the rpm dropping. That is X [tps] to Y [rpm] is Z [18 afr] lean is set.

When Ivan switched the wires, the code goes from 18 to 16.5 AFR. That says no fuel cut in the literal sense of it. It's still feeds fuel no matter the lift, no matter the hack. So watt I'm saying is there is still a number is X, there are numbers dropping is Y, and Z bike is still powering down with fuel, not powering down without fuel being metered.

In other words, there is no 'cut of fuel' ever! Go take a ride, lift the throttle, and sustain. Then, do the same test again, but this time, kill the engine at speed. You'll now know what 'fuel cut' is?

Romans, regarding the TRE, its full name is Timing Retard Eliminator which would suggest it does "adjust" the timing.

There was no way Ivan could explain that way back when when I was asking him. I had it here in a Harley manual all dis time. So, there was no bore to stroke change, meaning, that is still within the ignition range you pull wire. And the GPS may have maps for 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, as in sets. WATT happens to the timing when it it coded? My guess has to be the digital does not, or can't change like the analog can, so each gear is set with the same parameter. So if the map is matched to the gear, to the sub, then yes, I'd have to say there are 3 events happening to that sub move. Gear-which?-rpm = Speed of sub opening. However, in that sub move is the tre move, this is for every gear now is the faster sub, right?

I know on the Suzuki's (had a friend with a GSXR-1000) there was a separate ignition advance map for gears 1-4, the TRE would "trick" the ECU into thinking it was running in 5th/6th gear all of the time allowing for full spark advance.

Now that being said, we've got better bikes :) I haven't personally watched the ignition maps on a code reader to verify this AND the fact that it did adjust the closed throttle fuel tables was a HUGE surprise to me. So I don't know for a fact that Kawasaki created separate ignition maps for each gear, but it would make sense, especially considering that in stock the secondary throttle plates are used in the lower gears to "smooth" out power delivery, if you are changing the throttle you would need to change the ignition as well.

We lift on the IAP, it still is being pulled, not hard is the load, but it is still pulling map under that load times one number is the closed TPS. The other numbers in analog are the loads being pulled out of the IAP sensor. Last are the rpm numbers dropping [in analog] and is that not 3? Forget the other variables like mph speed, what gear we are in? We can saw that trans right off. Think about that engine alone. Now, back to 3 variables call the curve, call the AFR.

So on lift, meaning, we are in stock mode is 18 AFR. We hack to digital, we are now in 16.5 AFR is my bike pops a lot, help! Comes a post. "Oh, got to get a hold of Ivan. Use his block off my fresh air is [lean is the pop], but his pop-eliminator, number tre-? does the trick. But make sure it's this one or the subs can't be used? So this one sets the 16.5 RICH AFR setting, eliminates some popping.'

* Last updated by: Hub on 8/15/2013 @ 9:13 AM *

So I don't know for a fact that Kawasaki created separate ignition maps for each gear, but it would make sense, especially considering that in stock the secondary throttle plates are used in the lower gears to "smooth" out power delivery, if you are changing the throttle you would need to change the ignition as well.

TRE, With a name like that one would think. But answer is No. Hub and Ivan were into this years ago. Also Brock took a shot at Ivan with this TRE. Name is wrong, the results of what it did were incorrect with re guards to timing. No Timing Adjust. TRE08 Gave you Faster Plate opening and the TRE006A was the Hack for Neutral. Fuel adjust is different in N so this is why there is No Back Fire. All should be renamed. TRE006A still the only 100% fix for decell pop that I know of.

I'm working on this currently with the TRE006A removed. The fix is at 95% But Not 100% My bike has Zero exhaust baffle so I can tell exactly when it's perfect as the pipe gurgles in my ear. I'm sure if I had some exhaust it would be impossible to notice. But,,,,,still playing.

This is Hub's back yard, ask Ivan rofl

Romans, Yeah, but I need to find a Hubish to English translator before I can begin to fully understand his posts. I know there's knowledge in there somewhere, just can't quite see it :D

What I was able to wrangle out of it was something along the lines of try hitting the kill switch with the throttle closed and see if there's a difference between that and with the kill switch running. Interesting thought, I'll give that a try on my next run.

There's something in there about engine load and not considering the transmission but again without better wording its impossible to discuss that further.

Another thought is: assuming the stock setup leans the AFR to 18:1, why doesn't the stock system pop? Cats and air induction burns off any excess fuel so the lean flame front (long burn duration due to an extreme lean condition would result in the combustion process continuing into the exhaust phase of the cam timing) has nothing left to burn and backfire?

Another thought is: assuming the stock setup leans the AFR to 18:1, why doesn't the stock system pop?

Cats and air induction burns off any excess fuel so the lean flame front (long burn duration due to an extreme lean condition would result in the combustion process continuing into the exhaust phase of the cam timing) has nothing left to burn and backfire?

No, not exactly. I think you are more down the pipe than when PAIR started. Say the normally aspirated engine is inefficient and there is gas that has not fired. These unspents travel out the exhaust. The fresh air enters the picture, refires when the exhaust opens is that fresh air reigniting the unspent, because here is fresh oxygen to keep the burn burning, not out the pipe all chemically in vapor. So the cat gets so hot with metals used, this keeps cooking the fuel so it meets emissions, or chemically changes the wet fuel [being ignited] to being more a spent gas before exiting the pipe. And I think those metals have some effect to the chemical change as opposed to using another metal(s).

How about this? WOT is back-pressure? What is the pressure inside the pipe when it sits in your garage? 14.7 psi is the pressure. When the bike is running, what pressure do you think is returning back into the pipe? My guess is 14.7 psi. So when that pop happens, isn't that back-pressure going back in the pipe all instafast? Like, supersonic?

How about this? For every supersonic out is an equal supersonic back in she goes, yes or no? So shall the train shall meet and greet the Pop Supersonic? Yes. So will you ever eliminate the sonic boom? No. Can you chemically slow it down or change the chemical reaction is the sonic vs. how loud is boom? Yes. It's all about chemistry. Watt changed? Not the ignition. Forget any tre. Did you change cam timing? No. Did you change a jet? In a way, yes, chemically speaking.

So the point is, can we chemically change the pop? Yes, no tre needed [if tre jets up to 16.5 from 18 AFR], correct? Ever jet with carbs to stop the pop? Pop out the air cleaner or out the pipe? Nothing to do with ignition when you were after that annoying tune, yes?

Yes, I fooled with jetting on many old bikes, all the way to my ZX11.

Tried many changes with my H1 and H2, until I finally got it as good as it would get. H1 / H2 equal weak knees until above 8k rpm then all HP at once. Killed many riders by high siding them in turns. Widowmakers. Never got rid of bog completely, nature of the 2-stroke 3-cylinder beasts.

Brock's CT-Duals popped on my ZX14 with PAIR block off installed. Put on Jeffo's map, pop stopped, but she blew flames a little on roll off. Changed accel pump slightly, flames stopped. When I sold it, it was damn near perfect. Smooth, good gas mileage, plenty of power. Could pass 8 cars on a 1/4 mile stretch like they were going backwards.

Miss my rocketship once in a while, but not really. Love going long distances on my Connie and getting off at the end of the day still feeling good. Old man electronic cruise control is teh bomb. Never try to pass 8 cars now. 4 or 5 max.

I'm retiring in August 2014 and heading out to see America, some friends, make some new friends, visit some Suicide Girls who made me promise to come to visit, get some copious amount of ink for myself. Probably grow a long beard. Never can tell. Won't have anyone I care what they think anymore, so pretty much open.

Fuel, Air, and SPARK!
Omslaw showed me this trick on the busa. Worked great. I found I needed to raise my idle to 13-1400, cause of the cam profile. Under load speed with air shoving was great. Got like 191mph with just that and slips and a ZG DB.

* Last updated by: Cblast on 8/16/2013 @ 10:36 PM *

Hub, So I've gone out on a couple of rides and tried hitting the kill switch and various gears and engine RPM and of course didn't experience any popping... Since this simulates what I thought the stock map was doing (shutting off all fuel) this, in my opinion, leads me to believe that you are correct saying that the stock fuel map doesn't completely shut off the fuel to the engine but runs a ridiculously lean AFR.

What I don't understand is why would they do that? There is no issue that I can think of with shutting the injectors off during closed throttle above a specific RPM as if you pull the clutch the momentum of the pistons should provide ample time to fire up the injectors again.

What I don't understand is why would they do that?

X is the close. Y is the ECU now pushing 18 AFR or more? Closed throttle says; go back to idle. So as the analog [rpm] numbers are descending, the TPS is closed, the ECU sends the lean, the bike comes down from WOT/Sustained/etc., and Z now descending fuel delivery is matching [descending] vacuum number to closed throttle number = Idle.

There is no issue that I can think of with shutting the injectors off during closed throttle above a specific RPM as if you pull the clutch the momentum of the pistons should provide ample time to fire up the injectors again