Hi Guys,

As of late summer my 14's engine makes a new noise at start-up, and only when it's warmed up. It is not cam chain rattle. I am very familiar with the cam chain noise and this motor only makes that sound when it is cold and has sat for some time on start-up. It does not make this sound when it is cold or even after it has only warmed for a couple minuets. In fact, it won't make this rattle/knocking sound until it has completely warmed up and it goes away within 10-20 seconds on it's own or if I bump the throttle a bit, as if oil pressure builds and it stops the noise. The sound seems to be coming from the top end.. but so far I can't tell if it's the right or left side. It also seems to be along the front side of the cylinder bank not so much towards the rear. Originally I though the sound was coming from the clutch area and back. The sound resonates all around the engine compartment and is very hard to pin point. Screw driver to the ear has not helped yet because I have not found the right place to pick up the sound and listen through the handle. Keep in mind I am only guessing at this point.

Now I hate threads about chasing noises because unless you can hear the noise yourself it's all guessing games and no real way to narrow it down. Add to that everyone has their own idea of what normal vs wrong sounds like, etc. Because of this I have made a high quality recording of the engine starting and making the sound at start-up. I have encoded it as an MP3 because it is the smallest, most compatible format used at this time. In this recording I start the bike 8 times. In the last few starts you can hear the fan has kicked on because engine was at normal operating temp. I let the engine run each time until the rattle noise goes away. I did edit the sound clip by removing periods of silence in between the starts but only to make the recording as short as possible.. and only removed maybe 10 seconds in between each start.

Stats and history: Bike is a 2007. I spun #3 rod bearing of my 2007 motor last year and replaced engine with a 2009 engine. I know what a rod knock sounds like on this motor.. this is not rod knock. The 2009 engine came out of a non-raced bike and was very quiet compared to the 2007 engine IMO. 2009 engine had under 4000 miles on it when I installed in my bike. I have since added close to another 4000. Noise is new within last 500 miles or so. Bike is garage locked until winter has ended... and I have not ridden it since October. I started it yest and let it warm up and tested for noise.. it's still there. Yes, I drag race the bike. No turbo, no NOS. Use only premium gas. I run some timing advance with an SB6 but not until about 5000 rpm. Never heard engine PING. Seems to run fine and pull every bit as hard as it ever has. Oil is under 500 miles old. Mobile 1 MC oil in 10 w 40.

Any ideas?

Sound Clip - 3MB

* Last updated by: motoCycho on 1/6/2011 @ 4:41 AM *

Great job with the sound clip. Sounds like valve train not getting oil. Sorry, better guys on there way.

Noise goes away when oil pressure is had - Cam chain sounds like.
I race the bike, yes. Well, I never hear a peep from mine till I pulled it off the dyno. There is no difference we pin the throttle on a roller or down the 1320 - I keep hearing the oil tighten the slipper up at that slow oil pressure then all is quiet.

I hope it is the cam chain... but it just doesn't sound like that to me. This engine rarely makes the tensioner sound and only does it cold. I do have an APE manual tensioner I can install and test with. Kind of a PIA because I will want to put back the stock tensioner and now all the plastics, throttle bodies and crap have to come off to release the spring.. but I was gonna do it at least to see what happens.

Sometimes I wish Honda made the zx-14 ;)

* Last updated by: motoCycho on 1/5/2011 @ 5:30 PM *

Yeeesh...that one clip sounds...bad.I'm with Hub...cam chain noise sounds like to me.What weight oil you using?Lighter weight "could" maybe cause the tensioner to drain out quicker?Just guessing.If she stops with yer manual one...then problem solved...though it is a drag having to do all that.Maybe kill two birds with one stone?Don't go crazy removing everything,just enough to pull the tensioner out...install yer manual one...if she works...yer done.No reinstall of the factory one at all!

* Last updated by: blue07 on 1/5/2011 @ 5:41 PM *

That sounds like my rattle. Have to tell you, I doubt I ever heard a rattling like that third recording. that was a bad one. Mine might last 10 seconds if the motor is cold. If the bike was run and started in 15 minutes it will rattle about 5 seconds and quiet down a lot. It doesn't completely go away for a while. Sort of fades away gradually. If I open the throttle a bit that makes the noise go away.

Strange yours doesn't rattle when engine is cold. That is when the cam chain is dry and at it's noisiest.

* Last updated by: Rook on 1/5/2011 @ 8:00 PM *

Sounds like you need to pull it apart and inspect the chain tensioner and possible oiling problem. Just take it apart what the hell its winter!

Well, it is not a common noise. Chain start up yes, I ignore it, as it is functioning and the top end is getting oiled. Who needs an oil pressure number.

But yours, moto, is pretty unique as tensioner noise, if it is a slipper loading up. Very consistent. Warm on fadeout or warm and fades out.

Take it down. Here's what I'd do. Drop the pan if I see a funny looking tensioner with a part missing. Then it dropped the pan and look for part.

Yes, run naked. Install the APE. If noise is gone on warm up, rebuild or replace the OEM and yes, pop the valve cover off to trigger said design.

Not that I care, but honda looks like they use the same jobber as suzuki you look at both top crowns with the stamp of either logo you could insert in either emblem cast. They looked same year 1000 or a year apart if I recall.

* Last updated by: Hub on 1/5/2011 @ 11:59 PM *

Hi motocycho

Would like to know if your problem has been resolved? Please keep us updated.

Out of town for a few days. When I get back I'll dig in.

Mine seems to go away faster with the new oil. Less time on the ratchet up, meaning, in less than half a second. Almost sounds normal. Oops-edit. I forgot to mention ~ Cold start up.

* Last updated by: Hub on 1/18/2011 @ 12:22 PM *

motoCycho

Would like to know if you've had any further success resolving the noise issue?

Cam chain is bad ! Do you have or did the motor have a manual ten on it?
Run into this often when 14's have heavy springs/cams,and especially man,tensioners .
I'd almost bet money your gonna find a badly kinked chain once you get in there.
Have to be careful with the man,ten, very easy to over tighten'' not that you did this but I'm seeing this a lot..

Have to be careful with the man,ten, very easy to over tighten'' not that you did this but I'm seeing this a lot.

Sorry guys... still have not dug into this. This motor has never had a manual tensioner installed. Aside from the covers being swapped over, motor has never been opened either. Motor is a 2009 with about 7000ish miles or so. Maybe I'll play with it 2mro a bit... swap over to the APE tentioner and report back.

Would be great if it's the cam chain... relatively easy fix... can fix with motor in bike... but man... it just doesn't sound like it's coming from that area at all.

In other news I have got my original 2007 motor crank case split now. Spun #3 rod bearing on it last year. Crank definitely gonna need some cleaning up.

* Last updated by: motoCycho on 2/19/2011 @ 12:26 AM *

Man 10 Hub...man 10

Well guys.. I am happy to report that it appears my noise is resolved. I got the bike running again yesterday for the first time since.. oh a couple months or so... long story where I tore out the PC3 to sell to a friend and went on a trip to southern California in my truck and took my new bike with me a 2011 z1000.. anyway.. the zx-14. Got it running again yesterday and it made same noise once it was fully warmed up. I had removed all the plastics and even the rubber mat over motor (that requires removal of the TBs if you are wondering?)... anyway, engine made same noise. As soon as it was warm enough to kick on the fan. Shut down.. wait 10 seconds, start the engine.. rattles and clacks for a few to a more than a few seconds.. fads away slowly or instantly sometimes.. if you heard the recording in my first post of this thread it was identical, no change. So I moved all around the engine with my ear to a pry stick trying to pin point it... it was just so illusive.. couldn't say for certain exact spot. Just that it sorta sounded like top end.. sorta like the back around the counter balancer.. maybe more forward.. seemed to be more right side? Just impossible to tell. Ok.. today I swapped in my APE manual CCT and wtf? noise is completely gone. I have warmed the bike up until the fan kicked in now 3 times and nothing! I have tested it by restarting it hot now maybe 40 times.. not a clack or rattle. I am completely blown away. BTW.. until yest this engine had not run for at least 2 months.. cold start with OEM CCT, not a rattle or a noise. My 2007 engine had the typical cold start CCT rattle from about 3000 miles til it spun the #3 rod bearing at 9700 miles or so. So Hub and others that said it sounded like cam chain.. appears you were correct. Note, this is not the same sound as the cold start CCT rattle at all. Could be cuz it has just warmed up and with everything loser it just sounds worse... don't know?

Now, what should I do? Not a huge fan of the APE manual CCT. I really wanted to leave the factory auto CCT in there. I do have a spare from the 2007 motor I could test with... if the noise stays gone I got no problem buying a new one from Kawasaki. If the noise is the same then I guess I can just live with it? The manual CCT is a PIA tho because I have anxiety about my adjustment of it.. too lose, too tight?.. how does one know? That's why I wanted the OEM CCT. Reinstalling the OEM is a PIA tho too. What should I do?

* Last updated by: motoCycho on 2/23/2011 @ 11:49 PM *

What should I do?

Get a modified zx12r tensioner.

Carpenter Racing runs them in all their zx14 motor packages... or Bill Eason had some... more info HERE.

WOW! that noise sounded REALLY bad, you need a louder pipe!!
Glad all you found wrong was the CCT, from the audio clip it almost sounded as if the pan was on the ground and you fired it up dry...

WOW! that noise sounded REALLY bad, you need a louder pipe!!
Glad all you found wrong was the CCT, from the audio clip it almost sounded as if the pan was on the ground and you fired it up dry...

I had a rubber pipe over exhaust tip which runs outside under the garage door to reduce exhaust noise. Keeps the fumes out of the garage and house, keeps the cold out and lets you hear the real engine noises pretty well. And the sound it made, really was that bad. Now you can understand my concern. Still can't believe it was the CCT.. but I have ran it up to temp a couple more times and the noise is gone using the manual CCT. Crazy shit!

* Last updated by: motoCycho on 2/23/2011 @ 1:39 PM *

Hey Motocycho'' Im glad that the manual ten got rid of the chain slap and i sure don't want to add to your frustration but most times the reason the manual takes the noise out is you can force the chain guide enough to quiet the chain!
I hope that i am wrong and it was just a bad oem tensioner however they don't normally fail.
How far out was the stock plunger? was it at or near the end of the paws teeth ( long ) I would hate to see that motor fail,but the plain fact is the sound in your clip is exactly what a badly kinked chain sounds like on these 14's.
I am not knocking the manual's they work fine but its not made to fix a problem like IMO is a bad chain in this case.
Check your oem or if not sure have the shop check it to see if it has a problem extending or ratchet is binding as this would pretty much dictate tensioner and not chain,if nothing else to ease your mind...........

Hey Motocycho'' Im glad that the manual ten got rid of the chain slap and i sure don't want to add to your frustration but most times the reason the manual takes the noise out is you can force the chain guide enough to quiet the chain!
I hope that i am wrong and it was just a bad oem tensioner however they don't normally fail.
How far out was the stock plunger? was it at or near the end of the paws teeth ( long ) I would hate to see that motor fail,but the plain fact is the sound in your clip is exactly what a badly kinked chain sounds like on these 14's.
I am not knocking the manual's they work fine but its not made to fix a problem like IMO is a bad chain in this case.
Check your oem or if not sure have the shop check it to see if it has a problem extending or ratchet is binding as this would pretty much dictate tensioner and not chain,if nothing else to ease your mind...........

Hi Bill,

I really appreciate your reply. You have not added any frustration whatsoever. In fact, once I had finally pin pointed the source of the noise I felt a great sense of comfort. For me, it's the not knowing that is the hardest part. I can handle the repair... just gotta know WTF to fix, ya know? Anyway, my use of the word "resolved" was not intended to imply that this issue was fixed to my satisfaction, just that the mystery of the noise, is now, no longer a mystery. I will certainly look into the cam chain further to check if it has been prematurely over stretched or kinked. This motor has never had a manual CCT installed before now so if the cam chain is indeed fuckered it was caused by the OEM CCT. When I removed the OEM CCT Monday evening it seemed to be pushing out quite a long ways under the tension of it's spring, as if it was not already at or near it's fullest reach. Furthermore, the manual CCT didn't seem to require a long reach adjustment to make contact with the guide. I will get the service manual here in a few minutes and try and find the service limit and procedure for checking the service limit on the cam chain. You have certainly made me think and I want to be certain the cam chain is ok before returning the bike to service. I have my original 2007 motor dissected on my work bench and as a result I have an intimate understanding of how easy the cam chain will be to replace, new tensioner, guides etc... not a big deal at all. I am just relieved it's not piston slap or rod knock or ground down cam or a jact valve... list goes on about what I am glad the noise is not. Thanks for being one of the posters pushing me towards more cam chain checking. I am completely ecstatic over what I now know and the issue is, at the very least, contained.

Thanks,

* Last updated by: motoCycho on 2/24/2011 @ 1:16 AM *

Hi Bill.. or anyone that may know,

I can't for the life of me find the service limit or a procedure on how to check the cam chain wear in the service manual. I found the section about how to remove and install it.. but it seems there has to be a way to check it's service limit, no?

Its hard really to check the chain without removal,and i have never tried to check it in the motor but that said.
If you remove the valve cover and upper guide with ten,out you will definitely see or feel the chain bind.
Maybe someone here has a easier way to tell but its not me. I pull them when they are that noisy. Sorry man i am sure this isn't what you want to here ...........

well.. dug in some more and I am sure the cam chain is not stretched and it doesn't seem to be binding or kinked. I used the APE CCT to find the length the CCT moves out to tension the chain. First I removed the crank position cover so I could see the chain and check the slack as I adjusted the APE CCT until it was just barely engaging the guide and the slack was gone. Then I rotate the engine forward by hand with a ratchet and watched the chain go around a few times looking for kinks or really any abnormalities... looked fine and nothing weird happened. Then I removed the APE CCT and measured the adjustment reach from the base surface to the end where it contacts the back of the guide. Then I took one of the OEM CCTs I have and pushed the piston/plunger back in while I held the back the ratchet spring until it was at the same length or reach. It was only 3 ratchet grooves out. There are a total of 9 grooves. So unless they are worn out at 3 groves clicked it is not stretched past it's service limit.

After I did this I decided to install the OEM CCT from my 07 motor as a test to see if the noise returns or whatever. Resolved to performing the task at hand I was fully prepared to remove the TBs for the second time in a week and and get the valve cover off so I can trigger the release of the auto CCT, plus inspect the cam chain from that end as well. Looking at the crank trigger cover off I wondered if hey, can the OEM CCT be triggered from bottom? Sure would save a butt load of time, if only tonight so I can run this and test.. instead of spending the next 2 hrs or so pulling apart and putting back together. I need a new valve cover gasket after all and I don't have one on hand.. sure would be a waste of time just to have to pull it all down again in a few weeks or so. So I figure what the hell? I set the lock spring on the CCT and drop it in the hole and snugged the bolts. I then put a small screw driver in between the back side of the chain and the guide and gently pushed forward.. this on the side of the CCT of course. Then I slowly rotate the crank forward by hand with my racket while I keep the slack taken up with the screw driver until I get the crank trigger wheel gap aligned straight up. I was hoping to get a screw driver in there. I missed it the first time so I tried to go backwards with the crank but only got a couple degrees before I decided that was bad and so I was going to go all the way around forward again. When I get back to the gap facing up I notice that the chain is tensioned and against the guide even when I pull out the screw driver. In fact, I could press the chain forward and feel the CCT spring action the chain slack out. Unreal! That turns what could be a 2 to 5 hr job, depending on how much stuff you have off already and how much cleaning you like to do, into literally a 10 minute job. Still skeptical and hesitant to run the engine yet, I removed the screws on the OEM CCT to see if it had spring tension and it did. I thought hey.. I can just snug it back in and it probably didn't click to the next groove out.. but I had no way to tell for sure.. so I removed it completely again. I decided that a true test will be if I can reproduce this good fortune again. So I repeated the same action.. held slack tight, rotated forward then just nudged backwards.. didn't seem to be the trick but after I went forward again a few more complete turns snap! lock spring moves, tension spring tosses the CCT plunger forward and it was all gold. I am still amazed by this. So I rotate the crank a few more times just to watch it and make sure. I loosened the CCT screws just a tiny bit.. only enough to see a .25mm gap and that the tension was pushing on the cam chain guide.. it was. Buttoned up the cover and started the engine. Not a sound on cold start. The 2007 CCT was empty of oil.. had a film on it is all. I warmed bike.. sounded great. Shut it down and test started a few times. It rattles and clacks a bit on start-up. Nothing like it was doing prior to all this. Pretty much a normal brief half second to 2 second cam chain rattle. Normal noise as far as I can tell for this engine design. Of course, it was perfectly silent with the APE manual CCT, but as I stated before, I am skeptical of the manual tentioners and want the OEM automatic CCT. I just don't like the feel of the adjustment of the manual CCT... Too tight.. too lose? I just never knew.

Anyway, I am not advocating circumventing the service manual for releasing the CCT lock spring. But I was trying to be creative and it worked! That said, your mileage may vary.

When I get the new valve cover gasket I'll fully inspect the chain from the top as well. I am still not ruling out replacing it at this point.. but damn if all this isn't promising.

In other news, my 2007 crankshaft is fuct! 0.015 run-out at the middle main bearing and the messed up #3 crank pin is already at or under min spec. All this would be no big deal if there were bearings available to allow a truing and turning of the crank. .010 oversize bearings would do the trick perfect. Anyone got any info on this? I was thinking I could send the crank to APE.. but since it's bent, I am not sure they would even bother. Any recommendations? New crank I guess? Complete shame because the crank pin on #3 is just ever so slightly piled up with Babbitt. The machine shop I took it to today said they would have to regrind it and polish it.. and since it was at min spec now.. well, you get the point.

Sorry for the long post.. sheesh!

* Last updated by: motoCycho on 2/25/2011 @ 1:34 AM *