Not as much as I had thought. With Mass of Rider/Combined Mass of Bike + Rider ratios of .25 and Rider Weight Shift/CG Height ratio of .25, both of which seem reasonable for a typical rider on a typical literbike, the maximum effect is only 3.6 degrees from a zero lean angle and decreases down to about 2 degrees at a 55 degree lean angle. That means if you could lean your bike to 55 degrees, (MotoGp tires needed for this) you would only gain an extra 2 degrees, i.e. 57 degreee equivalent lean by hanging your entire body six inches off the side. Not worth it in my opionion on the street. Our sport tires have an average coefficient of friction of 1.20 which is good for about 50 degrees pure lean under ideal conditions. Hanging off gains me about 2.3 degrees, or 52.3 degrees effective lean angle. On the street if I am having to push my bike that hard to keep in front of someone, one of us is fixing to crash.

On the race track where fractions of a second count, hanging off becomes more important, definitely required at the top levels of racing to be competitive.

Hence "The Pace" riding dicipline.

Thank you for the info Kruz.

On the race track where fractions of a second count, hanging off becomes more important, definitely required at the top levels of racing to be competitive.

if you could lean your bike to 55 degrees, (MotoGp tires needed for this) you would only gain an extra 2 degrees, i.e. 57 degreee equivalent lean by hanging your entire body six inches off the side

..and I imagine if you are NOT leaning anywhere near 55 degrees, the hang off amounts to a lot less. The if the bike is pretty much straight up and down, the hang off has a far less pronounced effect.

.......still 2 degrees, only? Hanging off has an effect of making me feel more in control and I don't even hang very far. Maybe that is because for that very fine adjustment in a corner it is easier to move me than it is to move the bike--you know? I think some hang off def has value. Also there is the three point, knee down + tires contact that is more stable than the two point tire only contact......and it can never hurt to feel the distance between you and the ground when you are knee dragging.

I will agree that leaning the bike makes way more difference than hanging off. There is no way I could make any corners without leaning the bike but NOT hanging off, even in the most gnarly corners, would be very possible if the bike can be leaned just a tiny bit more.

* Last updated by: Rook on 3/29/2012 @ 7:52 AM *

One thing I don't exactly get...is.....IF your tire supports a certain lean angle,and is made to regularly reach that angle...and the MFG's have made it to hit that angle...what difference will hanging off really make?I'm not totally convinced with the idea that you can go faster 'hanging off' with 'less' lean angle.Physics I think show...the mass and all has to be at a particular point...for a given speed...to successfully make a corner...whether it be 10mph or 200.To me anyway...if you DECREASE your lean angle at a given speed,then your velocity will also suffer,right?I mean...maybe not like...'I can't go any faster with this lean"...but....in reality....the faster you move,and the sharper the radius...you HAVE to lean more,right?Not less by hanging off.That isn't the motorcycle leaning off...that's the rider doing that.The bike has to follow the laws of physics.

Looking at that pic...imagine how much faster he could take that curve IF his body was centered over the bike....leaning as ONE UNIT in that turn.Leaning with the bike.Not off to the side there and getting in the way of more leanability.

This is gonna sound...well...F'd up maybe...BUT.....you don't suppose for a moment that all this circus circus hanging off is really NOT necessary.That a guy could actually get more speed and better cornering performance by keeping his body tucked in to the vertical axis of the bike in the turn(I don't mean sitting perpendicular to the lean angle).But leaning with the bike axis.

How many times has anyone here entered a corner....only to find they HAD to increase their lean angle if they were gonna make the radius.Hanging off would not accomplish this.But leaning the bike over would.I think it was said...the rider mass hanging to the inside like that actually 'helps' the bike to turn?I don't really buy that.It's countersteering that's actually turning the bike and creating the lean.Not the rider's body position.You may 'feel' like you're 'going faster' hanging off...but I submit...it's because your visual perception has now shifted to a lower point above the ground...and THAT's what is making it appear(to the rider) that he's going faster with 'less' lean.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 3/29/2012 @ 11:32 PM *

elbow + knee = NEW MATH!

Now..before I get flamed...who cares anyway???Those racers are leaning in and dropping a knee as they're doing that.They're off the fore and aft axis of the bike.partly over the side there.But check out some of those vids like the superbike and such.They may be getting their elbows out and their knees scraped there,but look at where their bodies are actually positioned.Slightly off center,but leaning with the bike...not out and over.The leans they're getting...they're getting because of the countersteering they're doing.The bike and rider are as one in the lean.They're hitting because the bike is at maximum lean angle.And their speeds are corresponding to that lean angle and countersteer.NOT hanging off.

You will have less control off the side of the bike if you try to steer'off the side'.Try it.It won't feel right....You'll lose the sensation of the frontend at speed leaning to the side and trying to hold a line. It may feel more intense...but it's only the visual ques that are happening.The closer you get your eyes to the ground,the faster you think you are going.

Not all curves are basically flat.A banked curve is going to hold you much better than a flat one.Leaning off the side in a banked curve will 'feel' more controllable...but if you notice the wheel angle(lean)...it's usually LESS than if the road was flat.Even though it feels 'more leaned in"

You look at that black and white photo there.Great hanging off,right?Gonna scrape a knee soon,right?Okay....what's gonna stop that guy from increasing his speed and lean to make it possible to go faster in that curve?HIS BODY.That bike has way more potential speed and lean with him seated in the vertical axis of the bike...instead of off to the side interfering with the bike's design.Hey...but it LOOKS cool

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 3/29/2012 @ 11:54 PM *

Alls I know is that I just watched Closer to he Edge (thanks, drag).

Oh ya, they hang off. When they can, they are sliding over the side and touching a knee.

If you are leaning that far, whether it helps to turn or not very much, don't you want to touch? Wouldn't you rather be close to the ground going 120 mph if you were pushing all the buttons to lowside??

There are a lot of other reasons to hang off.

Here is another: How do you get the bike to lean? You countersteer but a sudden and somewhat exagerated shift of your body weight will help make the bike turn in too. That's totally what sport riding is all about --body and machine working in concert. I think hanging off has lots of merit. I just know for a fact, the bike leaning is really the only thing that is making that bike turn. I'm still not giving up on the sliding back and forth across the seat or hanging a knee out.

The "math" just says that if you hang off on the inside of the turn, your bike can remain a certain amount more upright as a reault.

This is good because it puts more predictable rubber in contact with the road surface, while still allowing you to make the turn.

The test of this is to get on a big parking lot, and start a long arcing sweeper-style turn, and halfway into the arc, hang off the inside and you will see the arc tighten up.

In MotoGP and WSB we are only talking fractions of a degree, where fractions of a degree win races by dropping lap times a tenth of a second.

On the street, it is dangerous (because non-racers tend to make mistakes) and not very useful.

Can guys go faster on the Dragon hanging off? Yes, but being a public road, if Joe Roadblock swings wide in his big Ram turbo-diesel pickup truck and you are hung off, you will have a harder time counter-steering out of the way, for obvious reasons.

Guys like Mike Hailwood and Giacomo Agostini won beaucoup World Championships without ever hanging off. Were they weighting the pegs and bars and shifting their weight? Undoubtedly, but they did it in such a way that their competition couldn't see what they were doing. Along came Paul Smart and then Kenny Roberts hanging off the sides of the bikes and pretty soon everyone's doing it. Now Valentino Rossi starts hanging one leg off approaching a turn and everyone copies him, whether they have a clue as to why he's doing it or not.

Does anybody hang one leg off approaching turns on the street? If not, it's just a matter of time.

Valentino Rossi starts hanging one leg off approaching a turn and everyone copies him, whether they have a clue as to why he's doing it or not.

Just a few weeks ago, I was not aware that this was a practice in road racing. Apparently there are a number of high profile GP racers who are doing this and from what I understand, they do it because it feels natural to them. No real reason behind it other than that. Good enough explanation for me but I think I will refrain in my own riding.

I'll buy that for MX racing. A 400 lb+ bike that never goes under 50 mph on a road course is not going to be held up in the event of a front tire washing out. If Rossi can do that, I would love to see the vid....or maybe not.

Interesting.I know those guys all do for the win.I was just mainly curious as to what others here thought about it.I don't do it...my knee that is...but I do move around the seat at times.Just depends on how I'm feeling and what I want to try at the time.

Wow, I've posted this equation on four different websites and it has created a shitstorm on just about everyone. On a couple I had guys personally attacking me because I was messing with a preconceived notion they've had for a long time. That leaning made huge differences in corner speed. I told them to add data logging to their bikes, lean angle sensor and GPS speed acquistion and track an identical corner following the same line at the same speed both centered and hangin off and let the data hardware tell you how much difference it makes..only way to do it.

I never said that hanging off the inside doesn't tighten up the turn for a given lean angle, it does, no argument there from me, I just wanted to know how much it helped...quantify it. You would think I had claimed the world was flat or Newton got his law of gravitation wrong (which by the way he did if you include the effect of relativistic mechanics) lol!

The equation says it does make a difference, maybe just not as much as everyone thinks. I'm one of those guys who wants to know why I'm doing something, not just do it cause everyone else is doing it.

I aint about to dangle my foot into a turn, i don't care if Rossi does, it looks goofy to me and you'd have to show me a major benefit before I'd start doing it. Besides I don't think he won a single race in 2011.

In MotoGP and WSB we are only talking fractions of a degree, where fractions of a degree win races by dropping lap times a tenth of a second.

On the street, it is dangerous (because non-racers tend to make mistakes) and not very useful.

Can guys go faster on the Dragon hanging off? Yes, but being a public road, if Joe Roadblock swings wide in his big Ram turbo-diesel pickup truck and you are hung off, you will have a harder time counter-steering out of the way, for obvious reasons.

All excellent points and I agree with everyone of them.

Looking at those pics of the top MotoGp boys, they're hanging off more than the 6 inches I figured on and also lowering their CG by hanging down and off. They may be getting slightly more than the 2 degrees benefit at a 55 degree lean angle in my calculations.

Try this, cruise your bike on a straight section of highway, hang as far off to the side as you dare and lean the bike the opposite direction to hold the bike on a straight course. That's the "reflected" lean angle, that's the most you are going to get by hanging it off and it's only a few degrees. As you lean further, the effect will diminish by as much as half as you approach the tire limits, around 50 to 55 degrees depending on street or racing rubber.

As said, getting off of the bike, and lowering your CG uses less lean angle. The less traction you use for leaning, the more you have remaining for other things like braking, accel, road conditions, etc... On the track, the goal is to always be pushing things as close to the limits as possible (w/o going over)... On the road, you need to leave yourself some leeway as there too many variables always popping up.

So I agree w/ Kruz... Should we be hanging off of our backs on our Sunday farm to market rides? No... But we should know how, and be comfortable with it, just incase when we encounter one of those variables & we need to.

Riding Skills Series: The Traction Circle

Graphically, the traction circle represents forces in the lateral (side to side) and longitudinal (fore and aft) directions. Because total G forces are added in vector form, a constant maximum grip level shows in a circular form on the graph.

In its simplest form, the traction circle is a graphical representation of available traction in every direction. Understanding the circle and its ramifications can help you to better realize the full capabilities of your motorcycle in terms of braking, acceleration and turning. In other words, if you know exactly how much overall traction your tires can supply at any given time, you can ride that much closer to the limit, or provide yourself with a greater safety margin.

On the graph, traction is shown as the accelerative force in every direction: What we normally call acceleration is a positive longitudinal force (longitudinal being along the direction of travel of the motorcycle), shown on the graph as a point on the upper half. Braking is a negative longitudinal force, shown on the bottom half of the graph. Cornering generates lateral forces, generally felt as centrifugal force when you're in a car, for instance. On the traction circle, points on the right-hand side represent a right-hand turn, and vice versa. We've covered both axis of the graph so far, but what about points away from an axis? Say you were accelerating out of a right-hand turn, generating forces in both the lateral and longitudinal directions. This would show as a point in the upper right-hand quadrant of the graph. Likewise, trail braking into a left-hand turn is displayed as a point in the bottom left-hand quadrant.

The tires on your motorcycle are capable of providing a certain level of grip in any one direction; let's say the maximum accelerative force is 1 G, a realistic number. This force can be applied all in one direction, such as braking or turning, or in a combination of directions-braking and turning. Since we're dealing with vector forces that are summed with a value as well as a direction, the graph of maximum grip values is shown as a circle: the traction circle with a radius of 1 G.

Looking at the circle, some things become apparent. Say you are at maximum lean in a right-hand turn. On the traction circle, this puts you at a point on the far right. Here, it's unwise to accelerate or brake, leaving you on the horizontal axis with no longitudinal acceleration. But what if you want to change that? Moving around the circle representing maximum available grip, it's clear that to add some longitudinal force in the form of accelerating or braking requires that lateral force be reduced to maintain a maximum total G force less than one. As we exit the turn, more acceleration force is added, requiring that less lateral force be applied: the bike must be straightened to accomplish this. Continuing on, eventually we arrive at the vertical axis of the graph with full acceleration and no turning forces.

This plot shows actual data from our Racepak G2X data acquisition system, and is in the form of a heart rather than a circle. This is because the power of the motorcycle is not enough to meet the maximum available traction for acceleration. Food for thought: The small dip right at the top indicates that more acceleration is available at slight lean angles than when the bike is exactly vertical.

Trail braking or applying the throttle exiting a turn calls for a mix of lateral and longitudinal forces and the related traction. In any event, the total traction cannot exceed the tire's capabilities, and this is what must be considered.

At full lean, 100 percent of traction-and your concentration-is devoted to side grip, with little requirement for acceleration or braking grip attention.

In a similar manner, you can see what has to happen entering a corner. Where are you on the graph at maximum braking? What do you have to do when you initiate a turn while the brakes are still applied? In any situation, you should consider the total forces-and hence the total traction-rather than acceleration, braking and cornering individually. For example, if your bike is vertical, with no cornering forces involved, where does that put you on the circle? What does this allow you to do as far as the longitudinal forces are concerned?

The traction circle can also tell you where your concentration should be directed at any given time. In midcorner the forces are almost exclusively lateral, with very little longitudinal. You should be concentrating mostly on side grip at this point, feeling for traction and alert for a slide. Likewise, under heavy braking you are at the very bottom of the traction circle; your sense of traction should be directed almost entirely here until the point of turn in. Once you mix the forces and venture off the axis of the graph, you should similarly devote your concentration proportionately. Note that just as the overall traction cannot be exceeded in any combination of directions, you also can only allocate so much concentration. In his timeless book Twist of the Wrist, Keith Code outlined a system where the rider has ten dollars of attention to spend. No matter how you spend it-a certain amount to side traction and a certain amount to acceleration or braking traction-you only have so much attention money available. For example, exiting a turn you should gradually pay less attention to side grip and more to acceleration grip as the bike becomes more upright. Spend your attention allowance wisely!

Ideally, a complete lap of the racetrack is spent at the very edge of the traction circle. Any time the sum of the lateral and longitudinal G forces is less than the maximum is time spent coasting. Evaluate a lap of your favorite track in terms of these forces. Is there any point at which, for example, your bike is straight up and down (no lateral forces) and yet you are not on the throttle or brakes (no longitudinal forces)? Are you maximizing total traction on corner entry and exit for every turn? While all this data is available from many data acquisition systems, you can evaluate your own performance in this respect to find places that improvements can be made.

* Last updated by: DogoZX on 3/30/2012 @ 2:09 PM *

"I never said that hanging off the inside doesn't tighten up the turn for a given lean angle, it does, no argument there from me, I just wanted to know how much it helped...quantify it. You would think I had claimed the world was flat or Newton got his law of gravitation wrong (which by the way he did if you include the effect of relativistic mechanics) lol!"

I'm with ya on this Kruz...really.I said I don't see how less lean angle(by hanging off)can possibly allow an increase in cornering speed.The only way the bike can go faster(appreciably)is to lean MORE...not less.Hanging off does not allow the bike to lean further.It only gets the rider closer to the ground.And yes....it may make the bike lean over a bit easier...BUT....you still will not get a deeper lean by hanging off.Your body will be in the way.If you hook your outside leg/knee on the tank as designed,the bike will naturally want to fall into the curve.But that's not the same thing as 'leaning off the inside there'although you will be somewhat off the center of the seat.

"if you know exactly how much overall traction your tires can supply at any given time",...and that's the Holy Grail in a nutshell.Right there.And just HOW do you find this out?Take a guess.If our wheels were on rails....it would be a no brainer...lean and go as fast as possible,with no possibility of a crash.Real life isn't so simple.And you don't find those parameters for your grip by NOT PUSHING.Those guys are PROS.They have the experience and balls to know how to break a tire loose in a turn in,or exit...or whatever.I'm not gonna risk my bike just to find out how much I can REALLY get away with.No way.Track OR street.Those guys are sponsored.They break a bike....they get back on an identical machine and off they go!No worries.

Believe me Kruz...I'm with ya.

Personally,I don't like 'hanging off"....I lose the feeling of control through the bars when I'm hung out there on the side.I feel much more stable and planted by getting just off center of the seat,and tucking down in a crouch when rollin hard.Knee on that outside holding the tank.Scanning out where I want to go ahead...inside leg folded into the fairing.Plenty of clearance should I need to readjust my lean some.

I right now have about less than an inch of unworn tread on my rear tire on either side...yet my cornering speeds have actually increased by at least 10mph.Some at a lot more than 10 mph ...which I would have not been able to do I don't think with my 07.Maybe...but I didn't anyway..On my 07...I would have already been into the sidewall....at LESS speed as well.So what do you guys think is going on?Same tire profile,same tire size.

Bigger bike...more weight...same rider....more speed,less lean...(apparently).Either these Metzler's are the cat's azz...or,I've got a bigger margin of grip with this bike and all than I think.What do YOU guys think?(these are nice tires BTW).

There are curves here that with my 07,the tire would be all the way leaned in and scuffed.At a given speed.These same curves...I've upped the velocity by as much as 30 mph in some.Yet my tires are still clear just off the outside edge.190/50.Radial.Can anyone explain this deal?

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 3/30/2012 @ 12:56 PM *

I have heard several different theories and explanations (including his own) as to why Rossi dangles his leg off approaching a turn. Even if it is an effective technique for reducing lap times, like hanging off is, I agree it looks silly, as does hanging off on the street. If you are turning so hard parts are dragging, you're already going too fast on the street, so hanging off to go faster is just insanity added to craziness. And if you're not turning hard enough to drag things, hanging off is just posturing. I understand how it reduces the effective lean angle, but the street is not a race, and when it becomes one, things begin to get ugly, not to belabor silly-looking.

Alls I know is that I just watched Closer to he Edge (thanks, drag)

.I said I don't see how less lean angle(by hanging off)can possibly allow an increase in cornering speed.The only way the bike can go faster.....

I thought these guys did a pretty good job at explaining. You said you agreed that hanging off tighter a corner! The way I see it: When you hang off, you can carry more speed into the corner cause your steering is going to be quicker, you can also turn later because of the same reason and you can get on the gas earlier and harder because the bike has less lean angle and therefore more tires to push on. Simple! The higher the speed and and the more acute the corner is the more hanging off you do. I think the old timers didn't do it because the bike and tire technology wasn't quite there yet. If you're pushing on today true sport bikes, hanging off is a must!

Danno also mentionned the foot off thing. It's a big debate topic lol Stoner says he does it unintentionally... he says, he brakes so hard into some corners that the rear bucks so violently that his foot come off the rearsets. Valentino does it intentionally and I think that sometimes he just take more space to prevent an overtake but also to influence the bike into veering a little while maintaining is torso up to maximize braking. AND finally, I do it I know lol. I do it unintentionally, the other day I cut through a gas station so I didn't have to wait at a red light and once I reached the top of a slope I saw a big hole I would have retired forks, my reflex was to throw the right leg off and and steer; I had no time to get into a proper hanging off position to steer the bike. I use to do that on my bicycle when I was caught by surprise and had to do a small adjustment. Notice how the bike leans when you're about to come to a stop and only throw one leg off? MotoGP is all about result and V Rossi foot off technique must be working for him, there is just to much money involve to play harlem throtters.

Years ago, Al Gunter used to line his steel shoe with asbestos. The tactic had no purpose other than to freak out his competitors and get them thinking about something other than going fast and winning. Race pundits always talked about Carl Fogarty's "gimlet stare" that would make the other guys nervous before a race. Turned out he just had a lazy eye, but I'm sure when he heard it freaked guys out, he used it to advantage.

Hanging off at the track has an actual use, but I put Rossi's leg-hang in the same category as the things mentioned above.

I don't care if it makes me faster or not. I think it does, a little bit and I even think it is a GOOD thing to do on the street if you are doing some good clean fast(and possibly not entirely legal) street riding.

I don't care if anyone thinks I look like a dorkass when I am hanging off of my bike because I know if they were on the bike with me they would be wetting themself ......and I don't hold that against them. I like seeing people go fast on the street and on the rare occasion I see someone hang off going twice the speed limit or more it is like no other thrill I ever experienced......and x2 to be hanging right off my own bike a reasonably safe distance back. It's a beautiful thig

So maybe I will get around to doing the math some day and figure the theoretical end of this out. For now, I just want to do what feels natural and is most fun.

* Last updated by: Rook on 3/30/2012 @ 5:19 PM *

As long as you're comfortable and it feels good, nothing else really matters.

Back years ago, we all used to ride the summit road along the Santa Cruz Mountains from San Jose to Alice's Restaurant. Then we'd ride the road that went down to the coast at Half Moon Bay.

On that road, there were tight sweepers and some cool 90-120 degree turns and they were fresh asphalt every spring.

We'd hang off in the tigter turns, and be doing about 3 times the speed limit.

This was back when I was thin, my knees etc. had not blown up on me yet, and I was wearing one piece leather with knee sliders etc.

I'm not saying there aren't places you guys can do it, I'm saying there aren't many places where it won't double the chances you'll get killed if you make a mistake, or a cage driver does. The street doesn't have pea gravel and hay bails on the shoulders.

I'm not arguing against hanging it off, it works, race results and now the math is there to back it up, I just wanted to find out how much effect it had. The advantage is there but it is small. Realistically, if you do everything right, at race pace you can expect about 2 degrees and about a 4% increase in corner speed, that's it.
I originally set out on this quest because a newbie riding buddy with six months riding experience thinks he can make up for years of riding experience by reading "A Twist of The Wrist" and hang off without developing the basic cornering skills first. The math doesn't support his contention.

I naturally hang off when reaching the cornering limit of my tires to gain a little more speed in the turn without dragging hard parts. I'll bet most experienced riders to it subconsciously.

Ragarding experienced riders doing it, yes, but only slight weight shifts. Not racing shifts.

I start to do it from years of habit, but stop before half of me has shifted. Or less.

Even on my hardest mountain road sections, I don't really shift weight all that much.

Mostly because when you shift your weight enough to bring cornering speed up 10%, you commit yourself and if Joe Blow in his Ram Charger cuts across the center line, you are toast because you can't counter steer the opposite direction while hanging off.

I say again, do it on the race track. If you do it on the street, I'm not going chide you for it, because when I was young and stupid I did it too. And was lucky. You may not be so lucky.

Enough members of this forum have broken body parts severely enough to take them off the road for months (or years) from just bad luck. Why push it?

* Last updated by: privateer on 3/31/2012 @ 2:33 PM *