http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?se...cal&id=7433661
* Last updated by: Kruz on 11/19/2010 @ 8:47 AM *
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Created on: 11/19/10 08:44 AM
Replies: 24
Kruz
Location:
Joined: 03/16/09
Posts: 6862
Was This Justified?
11/19/10 8:44 AM
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvg/story?se...cal&id=7433661
* Last updated by: Kruz on 11/19/2010 @ 8:47 AM *
DogoZX
Location:
Joined: 02/26/09
Posts: 2889
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 9:08 AM
WOW... Simply put... NO.
There have been quite a few questionable police shootings here in WA this year. Looks like it's not just a local problem.
loadedmind
Location: Planet Earth
Joined: 01/17/10
Posts: 674
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 9:26 AM
I remember this story a long while ago. Here are my thoughts:
* I can't hear whether the LEO asked the harley rider to put his hands up or not
* If the LEO had ANY QUESTION whether the man was armed, he should've asked if he didn't - to have the rider put his hands up
* If he seriously thought the man was armed, he could've gotten out of his squad car and drawn his weapon (safety on) and duck behind the car for cover, asking the man to raise his hands
Honestly, the LEO seemed a bit too trigger-happy and not able to handle/calm himself well enough to be an effective LEO. If you watch the video closely, you notice that the rider turned around slightly the first time, then looked forward, turning his body, then TURNED AGAIN in the EXACT SAME MANNER AS BEFORE. Did anyone else catch that? Watch it again and look at him turning his body twice.
If I were the judge, I would fine the LEO, take his badge, ensure the LEO is never again able to work in law enforcement and ALSO prevent the man from owning any firearms for at LEAST 5 years. I'd put his ass in jail for 1 year. Why only 1 year? Well, I honestly believe it should be proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you possessed criminal intent and I don't think that was the case. IMO, it was a simple case of overreacting / not thinking it through clearly enough. And, clearly, this LEO shouldn't own a gun if he reacts in the manner he did - not exercising reasonable judgment under a potential crisis situation.
DogoZX
Location:
Joined: 02/26/09
Posts: 2889
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 10:09 AM
Why did the officer get out with his gun drawn in the first place? It was just a traffic stop. Were the bikers suspects in another crime? There was another patrol car on the scene pronto, which maks me wonder. Gun drawn = felony stop. Riding like a jackass is not a felony to my knowledge.
* Last updated by: DogoZX on 11/19/2010 @ 12:32 PM *
Rook
Joined: 03/28/09
Posts: 21235
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 10:28 AM
"Put your hands up, put your hands up!"
Little late after you just busted a cap up his poor ass.
Looked like an overreaction. That was NOT a high speed chase. Sh!t, it only lasted less than 15 seconds. They probably were fleeing but no reason to get all excited about a wussy drag race between two lame ass Harlies. Damn, just chase them down until one wipes out if you want them that bad. That's what the cop did. The drawn gun was probably a precaution. The boy cop was just too jumpy. I do not see anything from the victim that would indicate reaching for a weapon. The guy was sitting on the bike submissively with his hands at his side. If the boy cop thought the biker was riding with gun in hand -----I don't buy thAT. A MAN COULD not MAKE IT THRough police training and be that much of an idiot.
Here's my take--the cop is fresh out of the academy. He knew he f@ched up as soon as he heard his 9mm go off and saw the biker go stiff and tumble. He never thought he would ever shoot anyone. He was scared. He made up a story to cover his ass and it isn't going to work because the video evidence from his own car does not support it.
Being a cop can involve some very tough decisions. It's not easy. Glad most of our police have more sense than this. One more risk of running from the PO. It gets real bad if you don't get away.
Rook
Joined: 03/28/09
Posts: 21235
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 10:43 AM
Why did the officer get out with his gun drawn in the first place?
I'd say a drawn gun is warrented if a police chase occurred. Fleeing is a felony. This did not look like anything but a couple guys on Harlies thinking they might be able to escape a squad car but the drawn weapon is probably procedure.
If I were the judge, I would fine the LEO, take his badge, ensure the LEO is never again able to work in law enforcement and ALSO prevent the man from owning any firearms for at LEAST 5 years. I'd put his ass in jail for 1 year. Why only 1 year? Well, I honestly believe it should be proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you possessed criminal intent and I don't think that was the case. IMO, it was a simple case of overreacting / not thinking it through clearly enough. And, clearly, this LEO shouldn't own a gun if he reacts in the manner he did - not exercising reasonable judgment under a potential crisis situation.
Very well said, loadedmind. There was no reason to have a tight squeeze on the trigger. This cop made a serious mistake and he deserves no breaks. Not that traffic offense penalties compare but if this cop is that much of a hard ass, he prolly never cut any relatively harmless traffic violator a break. If you're a rules R rules guy, you need to follow the rules too.
Grn14
Location: Montana
Joined: 02/25/09
Posts: 15511
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 10:47 AM
The officer needs to be removed from duty IMMEDIATELY.Totally unjustified.He's gonna end up killing someone before too long if he's not reassigned or removed.Whatever the sentence is for attempted murder,let it be written,let it be done.WHY the hell would you shoot someone(in the back)as they're obviously not armed and complying with the commands.He didn't give the guy a chance to raise his hands at all.As soon as he begins to "do something"(could be starting to raise his hands)he gets shot.Unbelievable stupidity with that policeman.
* Last updated by: blue07 on 11/19/2010 @ 10:55 AM *
Rook
Joined: 03/28/09
Posts: 21235
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 11:10 AM
WHY the hell would you shoot someone(in the back)as they're obviously not armed and complying with the commands.He didn't give the guy a chance to raise his hands at all.
I believe the cop was in panic mode. That's why he continues to command the victim to put his hands up after the victim is laying on the ground under his 1000 lb Harley with a bullet in him. The cop is obviously trying to act as though he is following procedure after he has already sort of gotten things a bit out of order. I never went through police training but it seems like a cop should generally ask a suspect to put his hands up so that shooting is avoided. If you already shot the guy, I'd say the suspect is pretty well subdued.
* Last updated by: Rook on 11/19/2010 @ 11:13 AM *
DogoZX
Location:
Joined: 02/26/09
Posts: 2889
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 11:18 AM
I'd say a drawn gun is warrented if a police chase occurred. Fleeing is a felony. This did not look like anything but a couple guys on Harlies thinking they might be able to escape a squad car but the drawn weapon is probably procedure.
Didn't look to me like they were fleeing... looked to me like a couple buddies fuckin' around... not realizing that a cop was behind them.
LEO's need to be held to even higher standards of rationality and control than average citizens, IMO. I hope this guy gets convicted on all charges, get's maximum sentences and fines, and has to pay a sizeable amount of restitution. He won't... but I have hope. He will probably be relieved of duty and get severance pay.
* Last updated by: DogoZX on 11/19/2010 @ 11:29 AM *
Kruz
Location:
Joined: 03/16/09
Posts: 6862
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 11:32 AM
Didn't look to me like they were fleeing... looked to me like a couple buddies fuckin' around... not realizing that a cop was behind them.
That is exactly how I saw it. It was night time, they had no idea it was a squad car behind them, they took off in an impromptu drag race like a thousand guys on bikes do every day. When the lights and siren came on they backed out of it and pulled over. I saw nothing that looked threatening to my eye...but then again I wasn't there. This was apparently a rookie police officer and they are far more likely to over react to a situation like this and kill someone then a seasoned veteran. The cop screwed up and he's going to have to pay for it.
* Last updated by: Kruz on 11/19/2010 @ 12:16 PM *
Kruz
Location:
Joined: 03/16/09
Posts: 6862
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 12:18 PM
http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/story.aspx?id=457181
http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/story.aspx?list=194900&id=477826
Vidoes of ex-officer White, now jail bird White and the victim. Turns out White was a part timer on the Ottawa Hills PD and this wasn't the first such incidence of excessive force in that fair city. Anybody from Toledo?
* Last updated by: Kruz on 11/19/2010 @ 12:24 PM *
DogoZX
Location:
Joined: 02/26/09
Posts: 2889
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 12:35 PM
http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/story.aspx?id=457181http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/story.aspx?list=194900&id=477826
Glad I was wrong!
Rook
Joined: 03/28/09
Posts: 21235
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 1:47 PM
Didn't look to me like they were fleeing... looked to me like a couple buddies fuckin' around... not realizing that a cop was behind them.
Possible. I am looking at the guy running up the curb and thinking that would be something that would happen if he were on the run rather than just playing around. Loud pipes can drown out a siren. Lights flashing at night is probably visible on the road in front of you. In any case, I would think 15 seconds (as indicated by video time record) should be granted as a reasonable period of time to travel before pulling over.
* Last updated by: Rook on 11/19/2010 @ 1:47 PM *
DogoZX
Location:
Joined: 02/26/09
Posts: 2889
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 1:59 PM
Possible. I am looking at the guy running up the curb and thinking that would be something that would happen if he were on the run rather than just playing around.
I'm thinkin' the guy ran up the curb because he had just shit himself after realizing there were flashing lights behind him and he had just done a rolling burnout.
alaskarider
Location: In the glades
Joined: 04/24/09
Posts: 128
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 3:15 PM
he should be convicted. How was the motorcyclist going to shoot the cop? he was staddling a bike and facing the other way? The cop apparently shot him and then checked to see if he had a gun. Not everybody should be a cop.
bean07
Location: South Ozz
Joined: 08/02/10
Posts: 3181
RE: Was This Justified?
11/19/10 3:54 PM
Dead right there mate I thought yous lived in the land of the free, not by that footage!
JayFell
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Joined: 02/09/09
Posts: 144
mack14
Location: mphs.tn
Joined: 02/26/09
Posts: 59
RE: Was This Justified?
11/20/10 7:42 AM
wow,this cop never went thru his levels of progression.me being a former military police,this went down all wrong.we(the militarypolice)have trained those guys better than that.cilvillian police departments are freqently trained up by the military.this flash light cop was totally out of control.never went thru his levels of progressions(verbal warnings while ducked behind squad door,approach while staying behind suspect,if called for non-leathal weapons drawn(pepper-spray,then paton)if physical altercation pursues,then firearm if neccesary.this is what hung his butt(levels of progressions).all police officers are required to perform these levels,but some situations does not warrant this.this situation,could have been prevented with no injuries to suspect.some states require that a rookie cop ride with a veteran cop until he can prove that he's ready for this type situ..i hope they throw the key away on this creep.he probaly thought"i have a badge,i'm above the law".authority here,went straight to his head.where's the firing squad?
Rook
Joined: 03/28/09
Posts: 21235
RE: Was This Justified?
11/20/10 10:04 AM
this flash light cop was totally out of control.never went thru his levels of progressions(verbal warnings while ducked behind squad door,approach while staying behind suspect,if called for non-leathal weapons drawn(pepper-spray,then paton)if physical altercation pursues,then firearm if necessary.
Wow, I have no [police training at all and I have enough common sense to do something pretty darn near identical to what you have described. /Course, I know in the heat of the moment, things do not always go the way you think they should go......which is why police get trained. Still, some of us just are not cut out for that kind of work. Thank God this kind of thing is rare in N America. You go to some other countries and police brutality is more the rule than the exception.
* Last updated by: Rook on 11/20/2010 @ 10:05 AM *
alg8er
Joined: 02/10/09
Posts: 1219
RE: Was This Justified?
11/20/10 11:30 PM
I'm not saying it was justified, but if you watch the large version of the video, you can see the biker turn partly once, then the officer says something, and the biker turns again while his right hand lifts his jacket a little, like he's pulling something out. It happens way too fast.
"On the stand Tuesday, McCloskey answered questions about what happened at the traffic stop near the intersection of Central Ave. and Indian Rd. He told the court he was trying to comply with the officer's orders. "I assumed he was saying, 'Put your hands in the air,' because that's the only thing that I didn't do to comply. I was in the process of putting the bike in neutral when he shot," said McCloskey."
Doesn't sound right to me. Since when do you look over your shoulder and reach back with your right hand to put a bike in neutral. It looked fishy to me, but enough to justify the shooting? A normal traffic stop police don't leave their sirens going, so obviously this was thought to be running. I'll bet they'd both like to do this over.
alg8er
Joined: 02/10/09
Posts: 1219
RE: Was This Justified?
11/20/10 11:57 PM
one more thing...he says he was putting the bike in neutral, but both feet are clearly on the ground. After watching the video full screen again, he keeps looking over his shoulder, and then it looks like he's pulling something out of his waistband/pocket with his right hand. Neither thing is indicative of putting a bike in neutral, or raising his hands. I think they were both wrong. Unfortunately, both will pay for their mistake for the rest of their lives. I'm not sure why people innocently act suspicious when pulled over, but when a gun is drawn, downright suicidal. I was pulled over in my car for speeding once. My window was broken and wouldn't roll down, so as the cop was approaching my car, I popped the door open and put my left foot out so I could turn and face him (tiny sports car). Not smart. He pulled his gun, justifiably so, and I could have been shot. My stupidity.
Rook
Joined: 03/28/09
Posts: 21235
RE: Was This Justified?
11/21/10 11:48 AM
LOL, I had my 125 lb shepherd lay a dump on my back seat one time. I smelled it, looked down and saw it then pulled over to do emergency clean up. As soon as I set one foot out of the car, I saw a cop parked behind me on the shoulder with lights whirrling. Surprise, surprise. Didn't really know what to do--already half out of the car. I got out and held my hands out to the side so they could be seen. The cop stayed in his car and I approached explaining the dog just pooped. Turns out the cop just pulled over behind me to see why I was pulling over.
I guess that was not the best thing for me to do. I guess getting back in would have looked very suspicious too. Goes to show that things don't always go the way you think they should. If you have a gun you better be sure you are not abut to use it misinterpreting the situation. Well, the cop let me pick up the poop and throw it off in the ditch. He also gave me a blanket to cover the seat.
* Last updated by: Rook on 11/21/2010 @ 11:50 AM *
Badzx14r
Joined: 03/17/09
Posts: 1947
Kruz
Location:
Joined: 03/16/09
Posts: 6862
RE: Was This Justified?
11/22/10 1:43 PM
Hey, have some respekt for the popo!
* Last updated by: Kruz on 11/22/2010 @ 1:44 PM *
Fuzz4141
Joined: 02/17/09
Posts: 269
RE: Was This Justified?
11/27/10 3:17 PM
Ya have a little respect Bad.... who knows what went on prior to the stop or what history there was... we can armchair quaterback this to death but we were not there... from further reading it looks like he (officer) was convicted... but b4 reading the court rulings you can't say what was happening b4... was he part of an OMG (outlaw motorcycle gang) I dunno he had some sort of patch on his back.... we just don't know!!! Sounds like the officer had some history as well... being a cop is a job and sometimes some bad apples slip through the cracks of the recruiting process like any other job or company... All I can say is that the courts ruled that he was not justified and thats all that matters you can't judge b4 it goes through court...
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