Anyone tried this method of removing trapped air that won't come out using the basic bleed methods?
Only concern is could this damage any part in the M/C piston assembly? Is there a FINE SPRING in there that could get weakened? I can't find an illustration that breaks down the piston assembly. Thanks.

Spring fallacy: How much pressure is on a spring in the compressed state going 1000 of times a second and how many hours will a tiny spring take if you are sitting at a light for 12 hours = Runway is clear, you are free to....

I'm going to put oil and vinegar together, leave it overnight. By tomorrow I should see both mixed and I had zip of any kind of movement to it short of pouring both in as if I squeezed the lever once and there we go... Call me tomorrow if that mixes; I'll eat the lettuce that is turning yellow.

No tricks involved here. Like tre surgery, on/off - Open/Close = Once!
Now watch my fingers put you to sleep. Speelish lash I was taking a bath.
Not a drop. Now, did you see both pedals? I bet you have the one that is closer to the grip than that first close I should have stopped but one more to send it home!

Whathellookso easy, don't it? Then, what the helLAP'inn?

* Last updated by: Hub on 6/9/2011 @ 2:59 PM *

Man... stubburn issue, KAK.
I remember a thread, on the old forum (one of the lost gems), about stubborn master bleeds. Someone, I think 1bad, figured out that he could get all the bubbles out if the clutch was bled with the bike leaned over to the right (away from the kicksand)... Sent you a PM a couple days ago, but I guess you didn't get it?

Also... came across this tip, over on BL, that might help you out:

Do what i did, i did a 2 way bleed. Since air has a tendency to go upwards some of the air maybe trapped at the MS or some other high point. What i did is bleed the air/fluid out as much as i can with a clear tube holding it up. When the clear tube was full of fluid and bubble free i blew the fluid back in the slave forcing the fluid upstream (but make sure you don't blow it all back in because you'll introduce air), low and behold the air started to bubble up at the reservoir. I did this many times when i found stubborn air bubbles that wont come out.

Good vid, Hub... "No clutch burn, Baby!" lol

Hub, I saw your video and bled just like you. No joy.
Humor a poor, frustrated fellow 14 owner. Do you think it's safe to tie the lever back?

Dogo, I didn't get any e-mail notices that you PM'd me. I just looked and this site says I have two so I'll check them out.
About that BL tip: I want to be sure I'm following what that guy did. Your opinion please.
When he says he bled out as much fluid/air as he could into a tube being held up, do you think he allowed the M/C, clutch line, etc, to go DRY or was he keeping the reservoir full enough to not suck in more air?
If letting the fluid drain out from all the parts above is what he did then I can understand that just blowing the collected fluid back up could work. Worth a try even though you're introducing a ton of air into the system in his first step.

But if he means the reservoir is to stay FILLED enough while draining, then you would have the reservoir over-flowing when you blew the air free fluid in the tubing back up. I suppose a bunch of rags could handle this but it seems funny. If I'm dense I apologize. I'm about burned out on this whole thing.

I'd appreciate your opinion on how he did it.
And thanks for the idea of leaning the bike to the right. I've tried moving the bars side to side. Someone else at my Suzuki GS site said to lean the bike too. Don't know how far though. Another thing to try.

* Last updated by: KAK on 6/9/2011 @ 6:58 PM *

Dogo, got the PM's. Thanks!
Yes, I've had the bike on the sidestand lately. At first I had it on a 1 1/2" piece of wood (typical 2X4) so it was closer to straight up. After no luck I remove the block of wood and the bike is just on the sidestand. So I'll get it up on the rear stand and try again. Could be that simple and to think how much I've agonized over this.
I've got a few tips to try and hopefully one of them will be the cure.
I DO appreciate the time you took. Thanks!

Yeah, that spring can take weeks on end of holdown = Go for it if you think that might do it.

Next idea is to have that master's banjo bolt sitting 12:00 high. Then, do nothing but crack the banjo next morning. Open it slow. If it pours out with spurts of bubbles, there she is!

If nothing then... Keep it pointed at 12. Release lever, push it out like I did. Then pull the lever, break the banjo bolt one more time. Don't worry, that washer(s) has many crush levels about to collapse and seal once again.

Another question Hub or anyone.
Does it matter if the reservoir cap is ON when trying to let air work its way out through the reservoir?

* Last updated by: KAK on 6/10/2011 @ 12:07 AM *

In my experience, the cap has to be off the reservoir when you are bleeding the master cyclinder.

The diaphragm is @ 14.7psi as if the cap was off. Try either way.

Hub wrote:

The diaphragm is @ 14.7psi as if the cap was off. Try either way.

Agree, just not certain that holds true when bleeding. With the cap on, the reservoir is sealed, so any change in the volume/level of fluid in the reservoir will change the pressure.

I've never had a problem with the cap on.

The suggestion Dogo added made me visualize a guy just out of the shower pulling a towel back and forth between his nethers. lol

just out of curiosity, what type of fluid are you using?

I wouldn't imagine any harm would be done to hold the lever closed. I just wouldn't put a clamp on it if you know what I mean.

PULL the fluid THROUGH the master with the Miteyvac.Have your reservoir cover off.When you open the nipple at the MC....you will KNOW if there's air at the unit by watching your fluid flow.Keep doing it till you get FLUID ONLY!Tap the MC unit and look in the reservoir for any bubbles coming up.

They're NOT gonna float on the fluid.You have to be watching as you tap on there..Air will make it's way to the reservoir.It's gonna travel UPWARDS through the MC and line.IF you are getting even the tiniest of bubbles at the MC....it's STILL got air.Keep pulling fluid through there.YOU DO NOT NEED TO DO ANYTHING WITH THE LEVER.The fluid will flow through the mechanism just fine.You take and turn your bars,get the MC pointing "downwards".Tap on that Unit.Watch for bubbles.Pull the fluid through the line.Do it again if the lever is not responding.Keep doing it until you see NO bubbles at all.Then go to your slave.Do the same thing.Pull the fluid through the slave with the reservoir uncapped and open.DO NOT OPEN THE MC nipple at all.Use the slave nipple to open the line or close it.It will pull the fluid from the res,through the Master unit and down to your miteyvac.ANY bubbles at all means it's still got air.You want at least ONE full miteyvac fluid holder filled.Maybe two if you want to be assured the system is really clear of air.Check yer lever now.It should be fine!A lost lever means...AIR IN THE LINE!NOT a fluid problem.You pulled in more air than you thought.That's all.Gonna take a bit to get er out.....that's all.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 6/10/2011 @ 11:13 AM *

The way I understood the BL tip was that he pulled the fluid through the MC (normal bleed)... but then some fluid was coming out the bleeder tube, he blew it back in to force any trapped pockets out in reverse.
Another idea, same kind of theory, I think would be to compress the slave cylinder to force fluid back up into the master... just another idea.

Agree, just not certain that holds true when bleeding. With the cap on, the reservoir is sealed, so any change in the volume/level of fluid in the reservoir will change the pressure.

Not at the back of the sealing that is now pressing the clutch plates open where the pressure is past the cap. If anything, the 14.7 would pull the diaphragm back up and suck up any bubbles.

The way you tell if you still have bubbles; hardly move the lever and release. The stroke is short. Not even an 1/8" pull would be too much. That kind of pump action, then looking down the res. The bubbles coming up will show if air is still present.

Hey Hub...very good vid...excellent.I have a question though....1)where is your slave tube going?...and 2)...you have nice lever action throughout the process there...but what if you can't GET any lever action.What then?I know you mentioned it was previously bled.But what about if it's got a bunch of air in there?You won't be able to use your lever to move the air,will you?(or the fluid)

blue,

1) I show a stainless steel pan in the beginning and the other things I collected for the job. Beginning of vid. Thanks for the comment.

2) What [you didn't see] was me discussing about some extra in the tube if it gets away from you. First 7K or there about, I ran out of liquid in the tube. I didn't want to mix the new with the old. So yeah, I lost prime.

3) With that, I went back to the top [master] bleeder; till I felt a pedal again. I then bleed as normal.

4) No titty extractor creme freeze.

5) No $25 whore who could suck the chrome off that 14 that showed up.

6) No cup, tubes, mighty vac up a vacuum cleaner to the nipple kind of KAK? YOu still at it?

Whenever I've lost the prime...I can't get it back no matter how much I try to pump the lever.It just won't build for whatever reason.That's why I bought that tool.It really made a difference in getting things moving in there.Course,when I DO have lever,and I'm replacing fluid...I don't use that tool.I just kinda do it like you did.Thanks man for your insight with this.

Just wanted to say thanks for the help.
I've tried a couple things but haven't fixed it yet. I have a plan but I'll spare you the details. I'm taking a couple weeks off to take my son camping through Colorado and New Mexico. When I get back I plan to try a couple things and hopefully one will work. Hub gave me an idea when he mentioned loosening the M/C/lever assembly and rotating it, at least partially, on the bar. Then I'll try a version of that BL tip and maybe get that trapped air out. Jeee-zus what a pain.
So I appreciate the help and when I get back I'll let you know what I did and maybe it'll help some other guy down the road. Thanks!