If I put the K&N Air Filter in and get slip-ons, do I have to have a Power Commander?

i removed my k&n and put oem filter back in after i got an email from Brocks ill attach it for you. if you look at all the maps on dj's site they all say "oem or aftermarket filter" so the filter is not the issue. some say pc not needed for slip-ons but I had one made when i had my m4's and the difference was nite and day so imho id say get the pc3 and a good map. heres the response i got about the K&N:

Question :
Does Brock's recommend the use of K&N or BMC aftermarket street or race air filters?

Answer :
Brock’s Performance does not currently recommend or endorse the use of ANY BRAND aftermarket “street” filters. It has been our experience that they do not perform as well as stock and can actually work much worse. The reduced air flow compared to stock; disrupts our known good mapping, decreases fuel mileage, hampers driveability, significantly reduces power levels, fouls plugs, creates excessive soot at the exhaust tip, generates excessive carbon deposits in the intake track etc. When over-oiled we have seen these problems increase dramatically with registered horsepower losses in the vicinity of 10-15+ with greatly increased fuel consumption. You can't go wrong with today’s modern OEM air filters, in regard to engine life and consistent performance.

We have noticed measurable performance gains when using both K&N and BMC aftermarket “race” filters compared to stock, but these filters are for racetrack or low mileage use only since they basically filter out bugs and birds!

Registered Brocks Performance exhaust system owners can read additional test details in our private owner section (note 18):
Here

I've read many threads on this topic over the years and the consensus weighs heavily toward "GET THE PC." Seems like slipons were considered safer to run on the stock map than a full system. I have heard of a few people going without a PC. I have not heard anyone report that they felt their bike was damaged by stock mapping with mods. An after market race filter doesn't change the stock mapping requirements enough to matter much. I know some members run race filters on the street continually, apparently without causing damage. I would not feel safe running anything continually if it looks like it filters less than stock.

Personally, I never thought about running without a PC because I didn't want to risk it. The PC with Fuel Moto map for a stock 08 ZX-14 improved the performance a little bit before I modded anything.

I only chose the K&N because the dealer asked which one I wanted when they were replacing it. They told me the price difference and the K&N is reusable. Seemed like a good idea at the time.

As far as slip-ons, I was considering the Acropovic ones listed on ebay from Lockhart for $500.00. Just a thought. Can't afford the PC3 also.

Oh, I just had a 16K service done on my 20K mile bike. Any guess what the cost was? Hint 6 hours of labor with a mechanic evryone around says is the best in this area.

* Last updated by: slidderhd on 6/30/2010 @ 8:48 PM *

If I put the K&N Air Filter in and get slip-ons, do I have to have a Power Commander?

No.

Will air have a slight advantage with a jump start? Yes, that bubble is going to win.
Does my air cleaner have a sensor on it? No.
Then my mufflers has a sensor on it. No.

OK, let me swallow this without choking on this pun. I have no electrical components that are changing nothing in the telemetry. Right.
And since the same 360° will come around, it too brute tay you say there is no thermometer reading or a sniff reader off the back, watt the fact does an air cleaner and a muffler have anything to do with the tune, like I have to tune something that didn't occur but a timed event that moved quicker? Yes.

Does that mean I do not need a pee see if I can hit the bird feeder's center? I don't understand. Year not going to look at us strange and wonder why you are laughing behind the scenes, no, don't load another dick video and piss on us for not understanding some ship to shore you dirty whore. Yes, you will see me in tears just walking out dishit is read yours.

Oh, year gonna get it! Yes!

OK, I need a translator. Blue07 or Rook. Does that mean no I don't for real or no I don't sarcastically?

No, slidder, you have Mr. HerPeas to help you out. In fact, I don't think you need an interpreter. I think you read it loud and clear and if Brockiss near, he can explain that rational or I am one irrational being is without seeing some cement actionjackson on my own, I've been knocked out 3 times I can remember out of 13 and those other 10, well, you figure it out.

* Last updated by: Hub on 7/1/2010 @ 10:05 PM *

No.

I took a whack at Hub's explanation. It looks like he is saying that the increased flow of a filter and muffler increases the speed of the engine but not the a/f demands for every time the engine fires?? It will be firing more rapidly but each individual fire remains the same. ?

I was always under the impression that the volume of air is increased by the greater flow of intake and exhaust so fuel is likely to need increases to maintain an optimum ratio. I can tell my engine revs faster with the after market full system exhaust I put on. In my estimation, the increase in revving speed does not account for extra peak hp of a full system. 10.5 K rpm is the same speed mods or no mods but there is a heck of a lot more power at 10.5 K with mods. There is more air going in and it is unlikely that the proper amount of fuel is being supplied by the stock map for a lower flow system.

This is pretty common knowledge. No offense Hub. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you. In any case Slidder, I don't think you will have a problem without a PC if you are running slipons. The question has been asked 100x and the answer is the bike will run best with a new map but it is not necessary. Full system, nitrus ...more drastic stuff like that, I would not trust the stock mapping. A new motor will cost a lot more than a used PC.

I am walking a step. And each step I walk, it has to quantify the last step, then quantifies the step before that before I can get up to here. I'm watching what the bike does; reading a vacuum gauge and what that pressure looks like as it goes in. I'm not taking a guess here. My guess either works or you need to bring that different number so the fuel injection theory can begin to operate.

I was always under the impression that the volume of air is increased by the greater flow of intake and exhaust so fuel is likely to need increases to maintain an optimum ratio.

How about you take a crack at this, see if it follows one step after the other, you bring your increased number all fluctuating, I bring the same number, it never moves one inch, one pound. I want someone to bring in another number you keep adding all that impression, and it winds up that I will have the same number against all the numbers you bring in for one basic step or for you to move onto the next step.

If we have a door to a closed room, would you agree we have 14.7 psi in the room? The same name for that pressure is 1 atmosphere. I know it by the 1Atmo. You need to bring in your number, I have mine.

Say you open the door to the outside? Have we changed the pressure from 14.7/1Atmo? I'm sure if we placed a screen door there, it would step to the same pressures on both sides of the door.

I can keep going step for step we are going to skip a few you feel you are up to this part of the puzzle so far. If I use an OEM air cleaner, how much air under, over, at the sides of the door does that leaky air have? As we open a window and let some air flow like move some air between the cracks it is really flowing slow. TIME, we are going to roast in that room waiting all that time to have it cool down.

How much faster would a K&N screen door move air? Kind of like we keep moving now into the cylinder? How many numbers are you going to enter into that cylinder chamber, change the sensors so it can catch up. Pull over, change the sensors again, another pressure occurred you with all those number changes in pressures.

Are we seeing the bike has the same old telemetry set at 0 to 5v; as if 14.7 is going to change, but you change the screen door and now repeat what you said. Which to you makes more sense?

Can we gather all that bubble up that is going in, which is about to call a fuel to air ratio? Bubble move faster? Yep. Enough to make a difference with a clogged slip I need a piggy? Nope. Telemetry stay up with the change in air speed, like you take a whack at the throttle at idle and did the fast moving air stay up with your wrist apply?; the fastest you can move that human hand you can't keep up with the speed of that entry show me your numbers.
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All day long I am formulating how to move that one air cleaner move, you should be as confused as I am for you and not for me. I have my number and when I have 13,000 miles on the bike with all sorts of cut off exhausts or single exhaust thrown at it = No Piggy.

I have throttle bodies swapping flies with and without. Injector sizes way too overrich to use and that was the best setting where I never fouled a plug, never bobbled too rich at redline = No Piggy.

New tires are going on with new front brakes who needs to change rears. I am out again with another round of injectors, no flies = No Piggy...

... You'll be fine. If mine can chase the burgers, so can yours.

* Last updated by: Hub on 7/2/2010 @ 12:40 AM *

Thanks guys...