So, one of our own had a recent "get off" and high side that *might* (or might not) have to do with Traction Control (TC) response during the critical time.

I also experienced a recent incident where I learned something about (the lack of) ABS systems and how the lesson might also apply to TC tech.

I own a 14R, with no ABS. Some on here know I've been hot to replace it with a 14R that has the ABS tech. I'm re-thinking that decision based on a recent experience.

My experience is similar to the fellow with the recent high side.

My cycle settings are Full Power, TC2. It's a warm afternoon mid 70's, and the cycle is just underway from a lunch stop, so assume cold tires.

The experts say "dont turn it off, it nearly killed me when I did", and the manufacturers all say that these systems are not a "save all, be all" to every encounter with a sliding tire. They're assists, but they have caveats in their operations which have to be learned.

So, I'm approaching a right turn, and there's a tan area in the road surface, through the turn. I ignore it, but keep my turn entry speed low and execute a slow, constant throttle, turn: no brakes, constant throttle. It's a turn within a "T" intersection, a two laner road leaving a small town. I resist the urge to showboat...

The tan zone turns out to be sand...

The front tire breaks loose in the turn...

I'm caught off guard, I ignored the "irregular surface" warning...

The tire re-grips, and I tip toe through the remainder of the turn, not changing *anything*. I dont go down...

So, here's the point: ABS would *not* have saved me in this case. **I was not on the brakes**.

ABS can apply if you have activated it through some mis-calculation, but it only works if the system is "on" via (linked or un-linked) application of the control, in this case, the brakes.

I am now going to shift the focus to TC settings.

To my mind, TC is the "response limiter" to the throttle control. That is, you can activate TC through a mis-calculation of the control, in this case, throttle input.

The final point: TC will *not* save me if I'm not on, or possibly off, the gas.

This is what I will believe until convinced otherwise by an expert.

I'm willing to listen, fire away.

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I'd agree.If you're slowing...you're already 'taking action' and the bike knows no different.If you're acellerating...or steady..and the tires start slipping...then maybe the throttle input might get 'adjusted' by the TC...IF the inputs are 'long enough'..depending on which TC setting you're in..The settings are crucial to the amount of interference that TC will start at.I ordered an ABS machine simply for the fact that I don't want to misjudge my rear braking.I use trailbraking quite often...and even sometimes in a turn to adjust my speed.That may or may not change for me...but the abs (to me) sounds like a very good 'safety' deal just in case I get it wrong.

The TC is intuitive...it will activate in the different settings a different way.I ran mine in TC 2 and 3 just to see what it would do....it will control your throttle inputs if you reach a particular set of parameters for that setting.Whether you're crashing or possibly heading into one.It doesn't know that...it just goes by what they put in there for the big ninja.If you try to wheely in say,TC setting 3...you can forget about it...it won't let ya.Soon as ya punch it,it'll stop the input and neuter the engine.Tried it on some dirt roads.....punching her...it wanted to fishtail...for a second...but then with full throttle...it wouldn't allow it to open up.That was in TC 1.So I'd imagine 2 or 3....you won't be spinning a tire anytime soon.

I doubt it will do anything on a decel driving situation.The slipper might play more of a role there...

The engine modulation with the TC on can be very subtle...you may not even notice it's adjusting depending on the situation.There's a lot of parameters inside that ECU going on while riding.If your 'situation' is very quick...it may not do anything at all....depending.(say a water puddle) or a short patch of oil leaned over.But I didn't ride in 2 or 3 for very long...I could feel the throttle not opening up on hard roll-ons.

If that ABS stops the propensity for skids...I'll be happy.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 1/30/2013 @ 10:21 AM *

I have the racing traction control system on my 2011 ZX-10R. It is a bit different than some of the other TC systems in that it allows some tire slippage conducive to maximize off corner drive, especially in level F1. So the back end can get a bit... uhh... lively in the corners at times.

I think of the TC as something there that might save my butt under certain circumstances but I don't rely on it. I still ride the bike using good throttle control techniques and the TC is merely a backup to mop up for me if I get overly greedy with the throttle.

There are possibly a million different ways (only slight exaggeration) to go down on a motorcycle and the TC designers can cover only the basics. If you jam into a sandy or greasy corner too hot, no TC system in the world will save your bacon...just sayin. BTW, TC only prevents the back end from getting loose and high siding you to the moon, many lowside crashes are caused by overloading the front tire patch, TC is virtually worthless in this situation.

Same thing with ABS, when I crashed my old Gen 3 ZX-10R, ABS would have made the accident potentially a lot worse. I was cut off by an 18 wheeler exiting the freeway in light rain and near zero traction conditions. I was at about 70 mph and facing hitting a traffic island about 150 feet away or go under the wheels of the truck. I nailed all my brakes and lost the back and front end in a low slide crash into the traffic island curbing. I lost enough kinetic energy in the ensuing slide that my full gear was able to protect me. The bike was a different story and I basically wrote it off and salvaged it out. If I had ABS, my wheels would not have locked, I would have had near zero braking and would have slammed into the traffic island and possibly the big traffic sign poles behind it at nearly full speed. Going down probably saved my butt.

Does this mean I don't believe in ABS? Not at all, just understand, like TC,it cannot save you in every foreseeable circumstance.

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Great points gardner.

By instinct, I don't brake when the bike is most vulnerable to loosing traction. I would only front brake lightly in a corner if it was a definite crash avoidance situation. In that situation, ABS should reduce brake power to optimum where where traction is regained. That might not be enough to slow me down as much as I need. I guess the last two options are not very appealing. Lay the bike down on purpose or go off the road. In this scenario without ABS, I would have crashed from emergency braking in a corner anyway.

In trail braking, you are using the rear brake at the last possible moment so that you can enter a corner at a manageable speed. Again, if ABS comes on, you're left with either laying the bike down on purpose or taking your chances standing the bike up for better traction, possibly leaving the road on two wheels. Without ABS, you are left with those same two cards to draw, just a fraction of a second sooner.

TC will *not* save me if I'm not on, or possibly off, the gas.

Again the time I am most likely to loose traction is when I am in a corner. The rule for throttle in a corner is opposite that of the brake. I am always ON the throttle at least a crack as I enter a corner and then increase throughout. I have only rolled off throttle in emergency situations where I judge the risk of upsetting the suspension and inertia (G forces, whatever other laws of physics are at work) are worth the need to reduce my speed. TC would reduce the throttle in a situation where I would be getting off the throttle anyway.

I think ABS and TC are going to help us out most in normal street riding where we are not so intensely focussed. I think they will help avoid spins and slips in slippery conditions or accidental throttle / brake inputs. For sport riding, I think you need to adjust your mindset. If you are going to use TC and ABS you need to understand that while they remove the immediate danger, they are bringing you closer to the threat you hoped to avoid in the first place. It depends on you if look at that as getting a second chance or postponing the inevitable.

I think I'm too careful sport riding on the street to use ABS and TC all that much. If I am going to push my skills hard enough to make the bike slide much in a corner, it will be on a track. There are those who seem to manage without ABS/TC drifting and locking wheels pretty well on a track. If I encounter a surprise patch of ice or sand/gravel on the street, I am prolly going down whether I have ABS/TC or not.

* Last updated by: Rook on 1/30/2013 @ 12:14 PM *

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One other point, MotoGP has the most advanced TC sytems in the world and those guys crash with amazing regularity, just ask Rossi about his 2012 season. No doubt the TC helps a lot and allows the riders to live on the limits but they cannot possibly save you everytime.

Bottom line, TC and ABS are worthwhile but the only thing that will 100% keep you from ever crashing is if you get off a motorcycle and take up knitting.

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Naturally you will lose all braking ability if you lock your wheels.The tire rotation keeps the traction available.Locked tires mean sliding...which is not good.There's a fine line between maximum braking and wheel lock.I think the ABS is the saving point in these situations...whereas a slide could definitely cause problems.You will always get better stopping with the wheels rotating.Don't you think?

I can think of one situation where wheel lock(sliding) is terrible...coming up on a cage that's clearly moving much slower and you have no way to pass...I've been there....it's scarey...very.Especially when your rear wheel locks...and you need to have grip to finish your momentum.Sliding will allow the bike to continue decelerating...but at a much slower response.Like lowsiding and sliding.Two hard surfaces sliding against each other...not good.Not getting in those situations is the key first off...but sometimes...it does happen...like coming around a curve and suddenly....there it is.Someone's sightseeing and not moving much.Or a cage slips out of a sideroad....before ya can see it ahead.

I could see TC as a possible accident maker...depending on what the circumstance was.If you needed hard throttle for whatever reason...it could potentially stop that from happening....and actually create a wreck scenario.Slim as that might be...I could see it happening.

Depending on what it's set at...it doesn't need to actually detect a slip...if it 'thinks' one might occur...it will react.It's reading the bike and the throttle and the road(tire)grip.Much quicker than the rider could ever calculate safely.So you may not even feel it doing anything....depending(TC that is).

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 1/30/2013 @ 1:20 PM *

Tests prove that ABS makes a bike stop in a shorter distance than non ABS

* Last updated by: Rook on 1/30/2013 @ 1:18 PM *

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Having had a TC 14R...I would say....'possibly'...removing those secondaries and streetriding may not be the safest thing to do.They do play a serious role in TC control on the street.Linked with ABS...possibly....messing with the TC 'parts' could be risky.I think the slipper,TC,and ABS are electronically linked with the new 14R....in ways we probably never thought of?It's foremost design is streetability and safety with that bigazz engine;)It can get out of control very fast.

I've not heard anyone say this...but that Kawasaki TC and all just may have the ability to 'learn' over time...like an autotune.Making subtle refinements as you ride...and store em in there.It is their most advanced KTRC.

That could account for some guy's engine behaviors after changing gearing.Mine did fine with a rear gearing change...but some guys...it didn't.Riding style?IDK.Secondaries in or out?IDK.Brock and Guhl found the secondaries adjusting particular areas of rpms and such.....if those are gone...who knows?It 'could' get confusing to a factory programmed ECU.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 1/30/2013 @ 1:41 PM *

+1 @ Grn14 - you are exactly right.

My 2012 Concours 14 ABS has not only full time ABS, but full time linked brake mode (though I can tone it down) and TC is either on or off.

I know for a fact it works.

Coming home from the 2012 COG National Rally in Arkansas, I hit a torrential rainstorm that forced tractor trailers off the road. I motored on, and came up on someone pulling onto the road from a ramp and had to brake pretty hard and counter-steer around the car. Idiot!

The ABS worked fantastic, she stayed dead straight until I counter-steered.

Coming out of the counter-steer I had just a bit too much throttle, and the TC chimed in, and kept me from losing the rear end.

Would I have lost the rear end on my ZX14 ? Probably not, but it would have been much more exciting.

LOL

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Unless I missed something the OP was talking about when TC and ABS don't save your butt. This thread is turning into a discussion of when TC and ABS will save your butt....two different discussions. No one is arguing that ABS and TC don't have advantages, the question is will they save you from running off the road every time? Short answer is NO and the accident statistics back this up. Motorcycle riding is a relatively dangerous pursuit as opposed to basket weaving or oragamy, all the electronic aids in the world cannot overcome the laws of physics and gravity EVERYTIME!

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True...I honestly can't say when it would save ya or not...only scenarios that might make it so.It will definitely not save ya under certain situations.Being what it is...longer amounts of screwed up road surfaces would most likely be risky...unless ya pulled off or slowed quite a bit I'm thinkin.

I should copy the tech newsletter my dealer gave me when they were teaching their(Kawasaki)techs the ins and outs of the TC on the 10R.It's not a 'public' read.Intended only for the Kawasaki mechanics to understand what's happening with the TC.The 14R TC is more sophisticated even than that one on the 10R.So it probably has several 'hidden' attributes that are not made public or common knowledge.Including it's relationship with the ABS.I'm assuming...IDK really...but to me it does make sense.The sensor for the ABS AND TC are in the same line....possibly communicating with each other all the time.It could be.Add the slipper clutch...who really knows if they aren't working with each other at any given time?

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 1/30/2013 @ 9:27 PM *

Yea, I kinda look at the TC/ABS they way I do seatbelts and airbags, I'm glad I have 'em but they can't always save your life and in rare circumstances they've actually gotten people killed.

The positive aspects do outweigh the negatives by a considerable margin though so it's all good.

I read an article by Keith Code awhile back and he claims a 70% drop in accidents on the track during his California Superbike Schools since converting over to TC bikes.

This undeniably demonstrates that the TC bikes are safer than non-TC but it also demonstrates that people still crash, there seems to be no getting around that fact.

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Going riding today Kruzerman?Vids...we want vids!;)

@Kruz: +1 to that, Kruz. Good tech to have in-pocket, but it's not a end-all to the "slip slidin' away" (to paraphrase a famous singer). I usually read Code, but I dont remember that one. Got a magazine date, so's I can read it, please? That's an important peice of data, thanks...

Unless I missed something the OP was talking about when TC and ABS don't save your butt

Thanks, Kruz. It's a different view of the same subject.

@Privateer: Thanks for chiming in, glad to see you're still around these parts. I remember that story you relate, I've read that before around here. That was a skilled peice of work...

@Grn: There's something to your link between input parameter changing (engine torque response curves .vs throttle position, mapped in SW, for example), and TC/ABS behavior change, I'm convinced of it. One peice of data that convinced me was, earlier last year, Motorcycle Magazine did a "shoot-out" with european super sports, and the Ducati team provided a Panagali (sp wrong). But, Ducati insisted that the tires remain what they provided, instead of being swapped for "for-same" tires as the other models in the shoot-out (to eliminate a comaro difference).

Otherwise, Ducati said "no way". It was keep the rubber we give you, or find another cycle.

The reason they gave? It changed the TC response mapping. So, yeah, you're headed in the right direction there.

@Rook:

ABS should reduce brake power to optimum where (sic) traction is regained.

I agree with this assessment, in the situation you describe.

Again, if ABS comes on, you're left with either laying the bike down on purpose or taking your chances standing the bike up for better traction, possibly leaving the road on two wheels.

I agree with this, too. But, I have not read about, or spoke with, anyone who actually had ABS responses engage while leaned over, and with braking. Even Privateer has only spoken about straight line response.

The rule for throttle in a corner is opposite that of the brake. I am always ON the throttle at least a crack as I enter a corner and then increase throughout.

Agreed, very good.

TC would reduce the throttle in a situation where I would be getting off the throttle anyway.

I'm not so sure about this, tho. I would argue that, TC will "feather" the response, whether it's a "throttle on", or "throttle off".

That is, (depending on the setting, and I believe Grn gave a good description), that if TC were to detect and engage on a "throttle open" input, the response would likely be to "feather" that input, perform some engine management function to cut power (until the *system* determines that the total response (user and engine et al) no longer causes the "error detector" to detect.) In my opinion, the same would be true for a "throttle off" response, but the output to engine management might not be what you expect. It might actually "feather" your chop...

In any case, it will prolly do the "right thing" under the conditions it detects.

Otherwise, Heaven Forbid!, the Software would be in error!

Rook, let me add here, I really enjoyed your well thought out replies. You could write a book with that kind of attention to detail. Thanks...

... and now, we are back to my first points. Do these system (ABS and / or TC) provide system output when there's no inputs.

I am going to correct myself from yesterday. After thinking about this some more, I would like to change my opinion.

My original statements were based on an assumption: That only *user inputs* were in view. Throttle, brake, lean angle, etc. Anything an OP could modify.

That view falls apart when considering that the systems have system response maps in software (and likely firmware too), that account for more inputs that just the user's controls. I'm taking about the rest of the "world" the system monitors: wheel spin, accelerometer output changes not originating from user inputs, (and what else? I'm sure there's more).

So, based on the writeups, I'll change my mind, and now believe these systems will provide output during times of no *user* input changes. The reason they will do this? They will be responding to "world" changes that they detect, and can affect, *if instructed to do so* by their code. (The SW has to be "right", they only do what they're instructed).

If a wheel slip is detected by ABS, during steady-state user input's, and the ABS processor SW says "ABS commanded to engage front brake, duty cycle response 10 msec per cycle, over 0.5 sec absolute time", then that's what will engage (given the ABS system can do it, mebbe it's broke right?).

Last point: During my original example, I slipped on a patch of sand and managed to recover. ABS would still not have saved me if I had more lateral acceleration going into the corner (going too fast, OK). It (ABS) can not provide traction where there is none. Same for TC.

I also suspect (but cant prove) that it would not have engaged anyway. Why? Because the whel spin rate did not change, there was no "world" input differential that it would detect.

This is what I get for being a SW guy...

* Last updated by: mebgardner on 1/31/2013 @ 8:42 AM *

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Good points Meb.I agree all the way.The 'world' inputs are happening every second the bike is moving.Thousands of em.There's a lot going on with this 14R.And you're right about the lateral slides.But any wheelspin,front or back if in the right setting will try to adjust to stop it...If you could put outriggers on the 14R,like Code did with his track bike(s)...it would be very interesting to see just how much and when that TC kicks in in a given setting leaned over and railing.You probably would really be risking a drop trying to get the rear sliding at speed in a curve in the #1 setting...but #3 or 2 may surprise us just what it's actually capable of managing in a lean.

I didn't ride but one or two times in TC 2 mode..for a short ways.I don't think too many people do.But it did kick in on a hard roll on...nothing that would spin the wheel...but it definitely pulled back on the motor output.In 3...it most likely is very intrusive to throttle inputs.I'll have to try it out when my new one gets here.I'd also like to try a full on brake manuever leaned in at speed...just the rear...to see what it actually does.Don't know if I will...maybe ease into it??????It's not supposed to lock...in any situation.I'd like to find out personally.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 2/13/2013 @ 8:03 AM *

Going riding today Kruzerman?Vids...we want vids!;)

Yes, rode the 6R, just got home. Beautiful weather here! I need Jagmeister for vids, he's got the Go Pro, me no got!

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One peice of data that convinced me was, earlier last year, Motorcycle Magazine did a "shoot-out" with european super sports, and the Ducati team provided a Panagale(sp wrong). But, Ducati insisted that the tires remain what they provided, instead of being swapped for "for-same" tires as the other models in the shoot-out (to eliminate a comaro difference).
Otherwise, Ducati said "no way". It was keep the rubber we give you, or find another cycle.

Ducati has tire specific TC mapping, calibrated to work only with Pirelli rubber. They factor tire profile and circumference changes with lean angle into their algorithms for a specific tire, 200/55 profile, apparently goes spastic with anything else. They're going the wrong direction me thinks.
Yamaha's TC patent uses filtering in their algorithms to eliminate apparent low frequency tire slip differentials due to changing lean angle. High frequencies are caused by actual tire slip e.g rear tire circumferential speed versus front tire circumferential speed to generate slip data, much better IMHO, works with any tire combination.

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Great points had by all. Ill throw a few out there.

I agree it won't save you if you have massively screwed the pooch. But as someone who has done both a high side and low side I believe that abs under braking while in a corner can make the difference. Had I had abs on my VFR I don't think I would have lowsided. I got to hamfisted with the front brake mid corner and tucked the front when the front wheel locked for a split second. Abs wouldn't have allowed it to happen in my opinion.

My high side "may" have been prevented had I had abs on my busa as I would have been able to come on the brakes harder without fear of skidding out of control. Would that have saved it? I don't know but it sure would have helped.

As for TC it really gives me piece of mind mostly in the wheely arena. I'm pretty ginger on the throttle but that extra knowledge it's there again gives me piece of mind that I'm not gonna flip it over or slide it out mid corner.

Rain is another thing, it happens and I get stuck in it those 2 features can really help in both quick acceleration to evade and panic stops. I wish I had the abs model for these times, I do on my victory and they have saved my ass for sure.

Will they fix a completely botched corner that you've blown, maybe, maybe not but they damn sure give you more options when you do.

* Last updated by: Phantomx2k on 1/31/2013 @ 10:22 PM *

I think abs would have been able to save me on my lost corner.If I could have had the 'confidence' to apply hard brakes in that instant,I'm pretty sure I could have corrected quick enough to get back on my line.I think so.I didn't want the rear to skid out.....probably would have been the best thing though considering.Lowside as opposed to highside.

@Kruz:

Yamaha's TC patent uses filtering in their algorithms to eliminate apparent low frequency tire slip differentials due to changing lean angle. High frequencies are caused by actual tire slip e.g rear tire circumferential speed versus front tire circumferential speed to generate slip data, much better IMHO, works with any tire combination.

Wow, where did you get this info? Do you have access to the algorithms, or maps, or response graphs?

I'd like to see them, if they're available, even under NDA...

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@mebgardner, yes, good right up on TC in SportRider and also on Code's Superbike School experience. Will try to find both.

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I think abs would have been able to save me on my lost corner.If I could have had the 'confidence' to apply hard brakes in that instant,I'm pretty sure I could have corrected quick enough to get back on my line.I think so.I didn't want the rear to skid out.....probably would have been the best thing though considering.Lowside as opposed to highside.

+1 Grn, you could have smoked the brakes without locking up, might have made all the difference.

I am 100% for both ABS and TC but see them as last ditch if you screwed up already.

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http://www.sportrider.com/features/146_1110_advanced_traction_control/viewall.html

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Way back in the dark ages, CHP did a solid study of emergency car braking. With and without ABS.

A skilled CHP driver could stop just as quickly, in as short a distance, as he could using using an ABS-equipped car.

I know from experience this is probably true.

But what ABS and TC does, car or bike, is in those marginal situations, where you are just a hair over your limit of control and experience, they can help you avoid disaster.

Nothing more satisfying than stomping on the C14's brake pedal when in full linked braking mode, and have it stop so fast, and straight, and stable that the front forks compress almost to the stops. No tire chirping, no shudder, just all stop.

I posted, above, about the ABS and TC saving me from a possible mishap when I was riding in weather conditions I had no business riding in because everyone knows ABS and TC won't save you from stupidity or when you are so far over the limit of control that there is nothing left but crashing.

So why even talk about it ? LOL.

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