....this was made two years ago...consider the advances to metallurgy since that time.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/15/2012 @ 1:07 AM *

I think its done by the time it leaves the production facility.

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+1. Good stuff to know...

I also happen to remember a certain "Grn" hooligan who liked to whack it up to the limiter and then chop it closed for an engine brake all the way down... Time have changed :)

How you feeling, Grn? Healing up OK?

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It's redlined to test it. Do the same with your brand new bike. Redline at WOT but do it with a sense of purpose. No need to abuse to run it hard.

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Hiya Meb...I'm doing okay...Yeah...I'm torn about this ring seating deal....the time factor.I mean,how 'long' does it actually take for these modern parts to do what they're supposed to do...especially with the newest designs and materials going into these(Ninja)motors.It seems possible that the final Dyno runs they get before leaving would be sufficient to do it...and the recommended 'break-in' period is mainly for the internals like the trans and all.My last bike...I ran it between 4K and 6K while getting to my...."downhill decel' spot....but I'm thinking maybe the whole 'opener up' thing is pointless.I didn't have any engine problems on any of my Kawasakis doing it as I did.But was it REALLY necessary?IDK.

You can't really help passing the recommended rpm values while you're riding...maybe not the upper ones...but staying at 4K for 500 miles(up and down that is)seems more like a internal wearing procedure rather than a ring seat thing.Or a 'getting used to' the bike deal....that to me makes sense...they don't know who's buying the bike...maybe someone who's never ridden something like these?Easy to get killed with a brand new powerhouse and minimal experience.

I'm more inclined to go with Hagrid on this...I think the rings ARE set(enough)with the factory end run.You know they run em all the way up...to get their HP numbers and torque values and such.I don't think I'm gonna go do my regular break-in with my new bike...gonna just ease into it as the manual says....this time around.I think it's more important to work the transmission up and down at varying speeds and conditions more than trying to 'seat the rings'.I've never had a 14 that burned oil...or acted like the motor was 'not up to snuff'.

But here's something..a question....does anyone think that removing the stock mufflers(they have the cats in em)straight out the gate and installing a freer flowing muffler(s) is a safe thing to do?The engine IS tuned for a certain amount of pressure...and a/f mix.Anyone think it won't matter?

Hi back to ya, Grn:

I believe you and Hagrid have well reasoned points. I'm with you guys, the motor is "set" by the time it leaves the factory.

Yup, it's hard to follow the recommended break-in procedure. I did it, tho. ...and now, my motor does not burn oil. Is that cause and effect? I dunno, but I dont want to find out, either. Too expensive an experiment.

I read thos threads written by guys whose motor does burn oil and I wonder why it got that way. They try all sorts of stuff to get it to stop, too. My thought: too late!

I'm trying to follow Rook's point, but this particulat thread reply of his is tough to make out. Rook, it's too terse, I cant make out your thought. I believe the factory already does these things you mention.

I also believe that, straight out of the box, changing out the can for a different can wont matter, *as long as* the requisite a/f re-balance is struck, prolly with a map change.

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I don't think silencer changes will influence AFR to degree that would burn valves or melt piston crowns... or impact drivability for that matter. I think the headers and mid-plumbing are far more influential on AFR deviations.

Throw the Yoshis on Grn... and follow your manual.

Did you see in the video where all the bikes are idling up to operating temp? How long do they sit there? I think Motoman says this is to be avoided. But the manufacturer is doing it.

Lots of folk disagree with me, and that's fine I've been wrong plenty, but I strongly suspect the cylinder bore and rings are run in by the time the Ninjees trot off the testing area.

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Kawi techs redline the bike at the factory to test for hp/tq #s. That doesn't mean the motor is broke in, just goes to show that running it to redline for an instant won't hurt it.

The brand new cylinder walls are etched with crosshatching lines that wear rapidly against the piston rings. The school of thought I follow feels that the wear pattern that starts in the first 30 minutes of running is more or less the ware pattern that will persist to the end of the engine's life.

So, baby the motor, the piston follows a babied path the rest of its days.

Now, how much dif in performance does that make really?? Not a lot, I don't think unless you are competitively racing, maybe. According to Motoman, a "by the book" break in will make your engine a lot dirtier and live a shorter life. There are pics that support that (assuming they are real???)

here it is for the umpteenth time. Most of us have seen it over and over but it is always good.
MOTOMAN BREAK IN

I broke my 14 in by the book. It uses a little oil still even after battening down the valve cover a touch. Has visible slivers of steel in the oil. Still runs like a raped ass ape.

The busa was broke in EXACTLY as recommended by Motoman with the only exceptions being made for the fact that it was NOt done on a dyno or at the track. I had to do some pretty illegal stuff on the Co hwy right off the dealership driveway----they thought I was nuts but wouldn't say a word---not with $11,500 of my money just put in their hand. Today, busa has no signs of anything unusual in the oil dept. Also runs like a raped ass ape.

Point is, the factory redlines your bike for and there is no reason you should not do it too. Ride it hard until you feel the cylinder walls and rings are smoothed to the ware pattern that matches the way you want to ride the bike.

heh, it's really just another one of those peace of mind things, IMO. I prefer to think my bike was broke in like a race bike more than a street bike. In the end, I prolly would not know the dif>

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Yah...all good points.IDK...The 'crosshatching' and all that was mentioned...I'm not so sure that's even there with these new mfg methods and processes.Maybe a few years ago...but I'd think they are adding 'coating' to the cylinder walls and such.I know the Busa...well...their literature anyway...says they treat the c walls with some special surface coating...I'd imagine Kawasaki has something similar in the newer models.Probably a few short run ups and back down...probably all it really needs.Hell..I'll see what happens...most likely do it like I did my other ones...nothing went wrong with those...I'm assuming they were making max power.They certainly weren't blowing oil;)

I went and re-read motoman's info...most of it...turns out...I was breaking it it in virtually the same way....minus the oil change at 20 miles.I went 180.Hmmmm....interesting.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/15/2012 @ 10:49 PM *

Thanks for taking the time to write, Rook, Hagrid. I'm thankful for being able to stand on your shoulders for a better look over the learning fence...

Has visible slivers of steel in the oil.

Is this still true for you? Are you still seeing these when you examine it? (during a change, I assume). If not, at what (mileage? oil change number?) point did it stop appearing?

Point is, the factory redlines your bike for and there is no reason you should not do it too

Point taken.

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Guess I'll write a bit more, now...

I watched the video, above. I do see the tech's starting the cycles and letting them warm up to operating temp, just before going to the "run up" HP / Torque test. The spokesperson mentions this warm up is being done, but no mention of how long they do it.

There is one brief moment (lasts mebbe 5 seconds, if that) where we see a digital display of some numbers. They spool up and somewhat stabilize before the camera cuts away. There's no way to know if they represent max numbers available from that motor, under those conditions. ie: There's no way to know if they went to WOT on these runs. The best I can surmise is, they run them hard, for some undeterminate amount of time, when new. I'm going to go out on a limb here. I'm a fanboy of the "Velocity" channel, and some others. I've seen these factory tests, recently (this last year), on a number of different occasions, in a number of different facilities, on TV. The Suzuki '12 GSX-R, the Yam R-1 both had such shows just this year, with shots of the "run-up" test area in progress. They both show very similar to this video: Cycles under high throttle, high output, and high gear conditions on a dyno, fresh / new from the build area, being run at upper performance end conditions. The videos I've seen last 15 seconds or less then cut away. In one, I remember the test was being performed at video cut away time. I think they run up just long enough to establish an expected .vs actual number for rpm .vs HP (torque?) rating, value. Once they got the numbers, the test is completed, with a pass / fail result. I also remember distinctly that they ran up at least 4 gears (dont remember if they used all of them), and then ran back down them (at the test end) and so using engine braking.

So, do the manufacturer's do it (hi output when new)? Yup, I believe so. Do they go to WOT? Unknown. For how long? Seconds is what I've seen, not minutes. Is is safe for us to do likewise? Yeah, I think so, under "reasonable", "purposeful" circumstances, like Rook indicated.

To the question of: Is this beneficial? (More HP over an extended engine lifetime). I'm still out on this one. The Motorman data is intriguing, very interesting. Rook, I dont believe the pictures are phony or doctored. I think they're real, but I *want* to believe they're real, too.

He mentions WOT in some of the text of the 27 episodes, but that wording does not appear in the recommended procedures.

There is also no specific recommendation of the number of times to perform the operation(s), so I'm left wondering how many times is the correct amount? That's a critical number for someone desiring to obtain the same results, but it's not given.

His recommendation of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear run-ups under hard acceleration are very demanding on skills. Would I council someone new to our specific model to do this, many (unknown) times, in the first 20 miles of ownership? Would *you*? Yeah, it's a blast until someone dies...

There's no dates to be found on his website. No "last updated", no "copyright", no date's period. It's hard to determine just how old this stuff is. I did see a couple '99 dates in the write-ups. I think it was associated with a race victory. The motorcycle motor sizes (in cc) are given, but not their dates.

Lastly, also he mentions this "cross-hatch" business. Do we have anyone in the forum who can prove or disclaim this data? Is there indeed a cross-hatch remaining on modern cylinders, manufactured using modern CNC processes? Better yet, do we have anyone associated with jet engine or an A+P mechanic with access to a borescope, to take a look at a new engine?

So, based on this, I'm still on the fence about this particular break-in process. But, the data he *does* provide through pictures, is very interesting. Will I try it? It's an expensive experiment, with long term possibly expensive consequences. I'm not racing, either. So, I'll keep an open mind and open ears...

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(I did a Motoman break-in) minus the oil change at 20 miles.I went 180.

I'm sure it matters very little. The idea is to get rid of as much solid break in chunks as possible but oil the oil filter would catch those anyway. Some say that the molybdenum that scrapes off and collects in the oil pan actually does a lot of good for a brand new motor by steeping advantageous metallics into the oil which help provide necessary lubricative properties----throwing it away is like throwing out the baby with the bath water. That is why I used this stuff for my first two oil changes. It contains those sorts of metals that will be thrown out with a 20 mile oil change.

Use the conventional. It comes in a synthetic too but it is best to stay away from that for many miles, IMHO.

Has visible slivers of steel in the oil.
Is this still true for you? Are you still seeing these when you examine it? (during a change, I assume). If not, at what (mileage? oil change number?) point did it stop appearing?

Still there on the last oil change I did about a week ago. It seems to be possibly related to the quickshifter I installed. Might need to increase the kill time. Seems like it may have been a lot less during an interval where I barely used the shifter. Hard to say for sure. Heck, mighta been happenning the whole life of my bike. I just started looking at the magnetic drain plug. I'm at 37,500 miles on the 14.

. There's no way to know if they represent max numbers available from that motor, under those conditions. ie: There's no way to know if they went to WOT on these runs. The best I can surmise is, they run them hard, for some undeterminate amount of time, when new.

Do they go to WOT? Unknown. For how long? Seconds is what I've seen, not minutes. Is is safe for us to do likewise?

I think so too. You just have to hit the high note and roll off. No need to keep it screaming. I redlined about every ride after the break in. Lots of high rpm and low and lots of long engine braking. I gradually rode the bike softer over the first thousand miles but I wasn't easy on it at all the first 500.

They test the bike to determine if it falls into the hp/tq #s range they spec for that bike. It is a narrow range. You can bet they are going WOT to check max power.

I also remember distinctly that they ran up at least 4 gears (dont remember if they used all of them), and then ran back down them (at the test end) and so using engine braking.

Sounds like normal dyno procedure I have seen in other vids. They do the max redline in 5th gear usually so it is not too harsh.

He mentions WOT in some of the text of the 27 episodes, but that wording does not appear in the recommended procedures.

yes, the procedure DOES mention three throttle positions including WOT.

There is also no specific recommendation of the number of times to perform the operation(s), so I'm left wondering how many times is the correct amount? That's a critical number for someone desiring to obtain the same results, but it's not given.

yes, he does detail that as well.

MOTOMAN:

On a Dyno:
Warm the engine up
completely !!

Then, using 4th gear:

Do Three 1/2 Throttle dyno runs from
40% - 60% of your engine's max rpm
Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes

Do Three 3/4 Throttle dyno runs from
40% - 80% of your engine's max rpm
Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes

Do Three Full Throttle dyno runs from
30% - 100% of your engine's max rpm
Let it Cool Down For About 15 Minutes
Go For It !!

This is instruction for on a dyno. You would be breaking the law if you did this in any gear on the 14 or any other sport bike. He is NOT going to tell you to do that but the implication is clear: "GO FOR IT!!" I did second gear for the first couple runs because even though 1st would have been slower, it would have been much more harsh. I did third gear for the last 3 runs including the max rpm run. I hit 130 mph in the first 20 miles.

What can I say?? The law gets broken when a bike gets broke in!!

I considered the # of runs to be a guideline. IMO, if you break in your bike using this sort of method, you might as well continue to ride that way to be sure the process is complete and is NOT counteracted to any degree. That is why I slowly tapered off to normal street riding over the first 1000 miles.

His recommendation of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear run-ups under hard acceleration are very demanding on skills. Would I council someone new to our specific model to do this, many (unknown) times, in the first 20 miles of ownership? Would *you*?

No. I have suggested if anyone is afraid to do the speed right away (like I most certainly would have been when I first got the 14), just hand the bike off to an experienced, trusted rider. Let someone brake it in who can do it without freaking out about the speed. You have to indemnify the guy if anything should go wrong now or later. If that will cause you cause sleep loss, I would just do a normal break in. The 14 runs great and I was easy on it. there is no clear advantage to my busa in engine power however as previpously mentioned, there is nothing at all suspiscious with the busa at oil change time. Might be running cleaner and smoother?

There's no dates to be found on his website. No "last updated", no "copyright", no date's period. It's hard to determine just how old this stuff is.

You are wondering all of the same things I did when I read this back in 08. Actually, I am pretty sure I recall a friend telling me about the Motoman break in back in about 98-99. Might be even older for all I know. Still valid info IMO. Loading the rings is old school ideology. They did that back in the 60s. Now we have the S1000rr that has programming to prevent revving higher than specced for break in miles. The break in procedure might be changing but apparently, the old way still has its merits.

Better yet, do we have anyone associated with jet engine or an A+P mechanic with access to a borescope, to take a look at a new engine?

Pretty sure I saw a photo of the crosshatch on a new cylinder but no idea how old thepic might have been.

I believe Mr Kruz might be of some assistance in the aeronautics dept.

I'm still on the fence about this particular break-in process. ...Will I try it? It's an expensive experiment, with long term possibly expensive consequences.

The busa is no longer a low miles bike. 5,700 miles and running better than ever with the new pipe and fuel module. Conventional oil and it almost does not change color in 2,500 miles. No metal flakes in the oil at all.

* Last updated by: Rook on 12/16/2012 @ 7:38 PM *

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The amount of valleys and peaks with these engines are probably minimal at best.I'd say...a few good runs up...maybe not totally to redline...but enough to get the combustion pressure up there...and then decelling...yeah...a few times right away...within 20 miles.Then riding briskly,but not raping it.I think that would be good.That's how I did mine...all of em...I didn't redline for at least 700 miles.And that was purely by accident.Motoman says(and others as well)...no need for redlining...it's the pressure that creates the ring seal...and that can be obtained in a lower rpm range.In the right gearing.I also bought enough 'regular' 10/40 bike oil to cover two oil changes...just because.Motul 3000.It's good dino oil.I'll wait till she's fully worked before I switch to syn...IF I switch.

Brisk strong acellerations...nice decent decels...that should do it nicely for the beginning.THEN...the milder stuff for the trans and all.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 12/16/2012 @ 8:00 PM *

Rook, you were right to call me on the Dyno procedures. I skipped right by them, went right to "Street" procedures.

I saw the picture of cross-hatch on the cylinder in "breakin tips #5", I think the vol #27 had it (the last one). I've never seen anything like that before, all new info to me.

I also did not know that about the BMW, the break-in limiter in software.

Rook, that looks like alot of metal to me, coming from a 37K motor. I hope you get it sorted, so to mebbe prevent it in the future.

I feel more knowledgeable today! Thanks Guys!

Notice, I did not say "wiser", Ha!

Merry Christmas, many warm regards to you Grn, Rook, Hagrid. Thanks for your patience with me this year.

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I ran mine like the manual says.Reason being when I hit the gas it was like I was going to fly off the back.I needed broken in.I stil don't hit redline.Just don't see a need for it.Usually ride about 5-6 grand with bursts to 8 grand.I've hit 10 grand a few time but this thing makes so much power in the midrange it's great.Maybe next year.
Craig

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@Meb: never needed to be patient with you... you have common (uncommon) sense. The privilege of sharing info with you is mine.

;)

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